Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Walkman]

Hmm, then you shouldn't judge Contador? We don't know, better leave it there.
It's just like saying Merckx is the best ever when the guy tested positive 3 times in his career
What about Indurain, best of the best during the boom of a certain doping product
What about Pantani? You should just stop the Contador bashing right now

I don't really get your point. I dislike all those riders. My point was that in a sport like cycling, it's crazy to talk about "the best ever".

 

[sir fly]

Wonder what you talking about, he is one of the best stage racer all time, since 2007 he's got beaten only at the Tour 2011 (One of the hardest giro route ever beforehand, and 3 crashes at the tour), Tour 2013 (Off season which every great champion has in his career) and that's about it in GTs.

Apart from Armstrong, who is the last rider to win at least a GT per season over 6 years?

Keep wondering.
In this decade he started 5 GTs and won 2 (officially 1).
The 2012 Vuelta he's won because of his tactical sense, and not because of his dominant climbing ability, which is the topic of current discussion.
His 2011 Giro victory* hasn't been achieved against the best riders at the moment.
So, during this decade he hasn't shown he can beat the best of the best.
We could talk about his 2010 season as well, but I'm sure you'll exclude from the calculation everything you dislike.

 

[Walkman]

and whats your point? he still has by far the best VAM

VAM is just one cherry picked stats that are influenced by a lot of factors such as wind, gradient, length of the climb, length of the stage, how many mountains were climbed before the final climb, average speed during the stage and how far in into the tour the stage in question is.

Hence I don't accept this one VAM diagram, without calculations, to back up the claim that Contador is best ever.

 

[Walkman]

Then be a man and go to the clinic or shut up.

Be a man, really?

You can start showing me some calculations if you want to join in the discussion.

 

[Walkman]

You asked for evidence and (while not giving the whole picture) the presented arguments are very valid in regarding the climbing greats. I'm sorry to drop the bomb but the history of cycling does not circle around your bias.

The arguments presented are just a diagram. How can I know it's even valid? Because you say so? And how can I know the mathematics behind those numbers are correct? And the assumptions made about the riders weight? Wind speeds?

Those are legit questions to ask.

 

[Netserk]

Please elaborate?



The arguments presented are just a diagram. How can I know it's even valid? Because you say so? And how can I know the mathematics behind those numbers are correct? And the assumptions made about the riders weight? Wind speeds?

Those are legit questions to ask.

Troll-o-meter goes ding ding ding DING DING DING!!!

It's VAM. Weight and wind doesn't matter.

 

[BlurryVII]

Keep wondering.
In this decade he started 5 GTs and won 2 (officially 1).
The 2012 Vuelta he's won because of his tactical sense, and not because of his dominant climbing ability, which is the topic of current discussion.
His 2011 Giro victory* hasn't been achieved against the best riders at the moment.
So, during this decade he hasn't shown he can beat the best of the best.
We could talk about his 2010 season as well, but I'm sure you'll exclude from the calculation everything you dislike.

Yeah, just as you count the Tour 2014 into your calculations when he couldn't even finish it, and when he was clearly the strongest. And why don't you talk about his results prior to 2010?

You also have to consider his form, at the Vuelta 2012, he came back from 6 months without racing and he still was very strong.
He did beat the best of the best this season, he crushed Quintana at TA, he beat Froome twice, at Catalunia and Dauphiné. I don't even mention Nibali since he isn't at the same lvl at all.

I repeat my question, barring Lance, who is the last rider to win at least a GT per season over 6 years? Most of the time, in an impressive fashion.
Sorry but if you deny the fact that he is one of the best stage racer ever, you're ignorant

 

[LaFlorecita]

Keep wondering.
In this decade he started 5 GTs and won 2 (officially 1).
The 2012 Vuelta he's won because of his tactical sense, and not because of his dominant climbing ability, which is the topic of current discussion.
His 2011 Giro victory* hasn't been achieved against the best riders at the moment.
So, during this decade he hasn't shown he can beat the best of the best.
We could talk about his 2010 season as well, but I'm sure you'll exclude from the calculation everything you dislike.

Lol

Okay then

 

[sir fly]

Yeah, just as you count the Tour 2014 into your calculations when he couldn't even finish it, and when he was clearly the strongest. And why don't you talk about his results prior to 2010?

Well, being able to stay on the bike is fundamental presumption of the sport. Abandonment is just as valid result as any.
Clearly the strongest?! We'll never know. I thought you've accepted that by now.
I'm talking about this decade. It's clearly emphasized in the initial post.

You also have to consider his form, at the Vuelta 2012, he came back from 6 months without racing and he still was very strong.
He did beat the best of the best this season, he crushed Quintana at TA, he beat Froome twice, at Catalunia and Dauphiné. I don't even mention Nibali since he isn't at the same lvl at all.

You've heard this from Tinkov, haven't you?

I repeat my question, barring Lance, who is the last rider to win at least a GT per season over 6 years? Most of the time, in an impressive fashion.

Relax, kid.
You're not here to make the questions.
And Contador isn't the answer.

 

[No_Balls]

Please elaborate

No. That is exclusively clinic-matters.

The arguments presented are just a diagram. How can I know it's even valid? Because you say so? And how can I know the mathematics behind those numbers are correct? And the assumptions made about the riders weight? Wind speeds?

Those are legit questions to ask.

Dude. It's VAM. You know what that is right?

I dont say so. There are higher authorities then myself in this matter. Sure, You can never be sure but i wouldnt hold my breath against it given the circumstances in which they have been nurtured. They have been troughout studied and used as a scientific benchmark of comparing the results/levels between different eras

 

[sir fly]

Lol

Okay then

The facts are funny, I agree.
Defying the beliefs.

 

[BlurryVII]

Well, being able to stay on the bike is fundamental presumption of the sport. Abandonment is just as valid result as any.
Clearly the strongest?! We'll never know. I thought you've accepted that by now.
I'm talking about this decade. It's clearly emphasized in the initial post.

The initial point made by Hitch was that Contador is one of the best climber ever if not the best, if you're willing to discuss this point, you have to consider all his career, but you just came out of nowhere and decided to talk about this decade? Why only this decade? We will never know.

Yep, we will never know about the Tour 2014, that's why there's no point saying he won 2 GT's out of 5. He crashed, so we will never know So it is indeed irrelevant to count it .

You've heard this from Tinkov, haven't you?

Nope, just a fact. AC didn't crush Quintana at TA? Didn't he beat Froome twice? What has tinkov to do with all of this?

Relax, kid.
You're not here to make the questions.
And Contador isn't the answer.

Well, he is the last one to have won a GT per season over 6 years in a row since Eddy Merckx

 

[ILovecycling]

The facts are funny, I agree.
Defying the beliefs.

ten chars

 

[Netserk]

Are you dumb? The initial point made by Hitch was that Contador is one of the best climber ever if not the best, if you're willing to discuss this point, you have to consider all his career, but you just came out of nowhere and decided to talk about this decade? Why only this decade? We will never know.

Yep, we will never know about the Tour 2014, that's why there's no point saying he won 2 GT's out of 5. He crashed, so we will never know And it is irrelevant to count it .


Nope, just a fact. AC didn't crush Quintana at TA? Didn't he beat Froome twice? What has tinkov to do with all of this?



Well, he is the last one to have won a GT per season over 6 years in a row since Eddy Merckx

That is Hinault

 

[BlurryVII]

That is Hinault

That's right, sorry!

 

[sir fly]

Are you dumb? The initial point made by Hitch was that Contador is one of the best climber ever if not the best, if you're willing to discuss this point, you have to consider all his career, but you just came out of nowhere and decided to talk about this decade? Why only this decade? We will never know.

Don't be rude. It doesn't strengthen your position or the reputation here. It just makes you look immature and helpless.
I have a right to enlighten a discussion from a different angle. If you didn't like it - you shouldn't involve yourself in the discussion.

Yep, we will never know about the Tour 2014, that's why there's no point saying he won 2 GT's out of 5. He crashed, so we will never know And it is irrelevant to count it .

We'll never know if he was able to win the Tour, but we know that he's started it and hasn't won it. It's a fact.

Nope, just a fact. AC didn't crush Quintana at TA? Didn't he beat Froome twice? What has tinkov to do with all of this?

Different level from Nibali?!

Well, he is the last one to have won a GT per season over 6 years in a row since Eddy Merckx

O.K.
Whatever turns you on...

 

[BlurryVII]

Don't be rude. It doesn't strengthen your position or the reputation here. It just makes you look immature and helpless.
I have a right to enlighten a discussion from a different angle. If you didn't like it - you shouldn't involve yourself in the discussion.

You got a point! I shouldn't have replied to your comment, but it was so full of crap that I had to

Sorry, I didn't know your life was all about your reputation on CN forums? I couldn't give a **** about my reputation over here
You can get me banned, I couldn't care less tbh. I'm just here to debate fairly.

Different level from Nibali?!

Ah, just don't get me started on this
If you believe Nibs is on par with AC, then you lose all credibility

 

[sir fly]

You got a point! I shouldn't have replied to your comment, but it was so full of crap that I had to

O.K., what's inaccurate in my post?
Try to reply with the facts, and not with the beliefs.

Sorry, I didn't know your life was all about your reputation on CN forums? I couldn't give a **** about my reputation over here
You can get me banned, I couldn't care less tbh. I'm just here to debate fairly.

My reputation wasn't even mentioned.
Your manners were the subject.

Ah, just don't get me started on this
If you believe Nibs is on par with AC, then you lose all credibility

If you're willing to believe without a proof, then the credibility isn't a topic at all.

 

[BlurryVII]

O.K., what's inaccurate in my post?
Try to reply with the facts, and not with the beliefs.


My reputation wasn't even mentioned.
Your manners were the subject.


If you're willing to believe without a proof, then the credibility isn't a topic at all.

The simple fact of mentioning reputation means that it is important to you, which truly makes me laugh.
Not gonna keep this conversation going any further. Proofs are all over the place (palmarès, numbers, TT and climbing abilities, face to face) to conclude that Nibs isn't on par with AC at all.
I'm too lazy to make a full comment on this, it'll get redundant. If you don't see it, then sorry for your blindness.

 

[sir fly]

The simple fact of mentioning reputation means that it is important to you, which truly makes me laugh.
Not gonna keep this conversation going any further. Proofs are all over the place to conclude that Nibs isn't on par with AC at all.
I'm too lazy to make a full comment on this, it'll get redundant. If you don't see it, then sorry for your blindness.

Exactly what I've expected.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

The simple fact of mentioning reputation means that it is important to you, which truly makes me laugh.
Not gonna keep this conversation going any further. Proofs are all over the place (palmarès, numbers, TT and climbing abilities, face to face) to conclude that Nibs isn't on par with AC at all.
I'm too lazy to make a full comment on this, it'll get redundant. If you don't see it, then sorry for your blindness.

Nibalis numbers this tour is on par with Froomes last year, and Froomedog last year can't be far behind any version of AC

 

[BlurryVII]

Alright, there we go. Froome'average power strongly decreased by the 3rd week. Considering Ventoux and especially Ax 3, he is a class above Nibali.
Nibali's recovery would have been worse under incessant attacks from tougher competition, which was not the case, it was a walk in the park, he didn't have to deal with top shape Quintana or Purito.

Also Nibali's average power is higher thanks to Planche des belle filles, short climb = short effort = Better power output . Last year there wasn't such short MTF.
So it is just a false assumption to say that he is on par with Froome 2013.

Now when I say he isn't at the same lvl of Contador, he hasn't beaten him once in a MTF in his career, and AC is a better TT'er. And look at their palmarès, do you need something else?

 

[Dr. Juice]

When I see some posters here denying the fact that the great Alberto is the best rider of this generation and one of the best of all time..

He won the Tour 2007...won the double Giro ( not fully prepared )- Vuelta 2008...dominated the Tour a in 2009, won again in 2010 and blew the competition away in 2011...5th in the Tour after this massacre.
Then he came back after the suspension at 85% form and made history with Fuente Dé.
And then comes one GT where he is not in form ( 70% Alberto) and people suddenly start questioning him.
He won 6 (!!) GT's in a row , and 7 out of 9 GT's racing wise. That makes him one of the all-time greats. Few people managed to win 6 GT's in a row. And then some people claim he was beaten too often ?? Twice in 9 GT's. Every big champion was beaten at some point. Come on.

And now he was back in stellar form this year until the crash happened. Alberto will win 2-3 more GT's, I am sure.

 

[LaFlorecita]

IMO

Current top GT riders ( at this moment)

Froome
Contador
Quintana
Nibali

The top three at more or less the same level

Overall top GT riders (entire career so far + potential)

Contador
Quintana
Nibali
Froome

I agree with BlurryVII that Nibali is a level below Contador. Let's not forget Contador has always beaten Nibali in the GTs they raced together. Nibali's 3 GT wins were all not against Contador.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Alright, there we go. Froome'average power strongly decreased by the 3rd week. Considering Ventoux and especially Ax 3, he is a class above Nibali.
Nibali's recovery would have been worse under incessant attacks from tougher competition, which was not the case, it was a walk in the park, he didn't have to deal with top shape Quintana or Purito.

Also Nibali's average power is higher thanks to Planche des belle filles, short climb = short effort = Better power output . Last year there wasn't such short MTF.
So it is just a false assumption to say that he is on par with Froome 2013.

Now when I say he isn't at the same lvl of Contador, he hasn't beaten him once in a MTF in his career, and AC is a better TT'er. And look at their palmarès, do you need something else?

1. Not Nibalis fault that Froome doesn't have a good recovery
2. As you say. His tour win was a walk in the park. Didn't have to go all out at any point in the race.
3. Irrelevant that he hasn't beaten AC on a single mountain stage. Only the last 2 years that Nibali has been in what we might call "prime years" and they have not met each other in a single gt in those years, but I would bet my life savings on that he would have beaten AC in a gt last year
4. Better tt'er? On a hilly tt, perhpas. On a reasonably flat one? no way.
5. Palamares is a bad argument when we are talking about their situasion "now" anyways