- Mar 17, 2009
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No I think it's more that he shouldn't have really been there at all. But for the USCF conveniently clearing him in order to allow him to ride the race would have been totally different. I can imagine that it must have been galling that a rider suspended just before the Olympics is exonerated by his own federation so he can line up at the start of the Olympic Road Race in his own country and then goes on to win!!ricara said:
TexPat said:
The line for those who should seek contrition is a long one for which Alexi's place is just about off the back.
Geez, louise! Three posts out for blood!
I don't know what to say....but I'll try.
Benotti69, Alexi did NOT blood dope. Ever. He has been forthcoming about all the things he did do, as well as the things he didn't.
Nobody liked Alexi. Alexi didn't like other people. He didn't stay at the Olympic Complex. He wasn't with the other cyclist and Eddie B. and Ed Burke, that joke of a "medical" trainer for the USCF back then. Alexi did NOT blood dope, period. Find one shred of evidence other than your flawed logic. "Gee, if a few people blood doped, then they all must have blood doped..." Get real.
TexPat, you are down on Alexi for his "lack of contrition for '84"??? What exactly is he supposed to be contrite about? He won the Olympics, you knucklehead! He outsprinted one of the top sprinters in the world to do it. I'm sure he faked being tired in order to sit on Steve's wheel. What would you do if you were in a two-up with one of the best sprinters in the world?
Ultimobici, the world is full of "what ifs". The race would have REALLY been different if the Eastern Bloc countries hadn't boycotted. But then you would really have something to complain about, because I'm sure that every single one of those "amateur" had every drug known to man stuck into them, in addition to blood doping.
But Alexi has some herbal tea two weeks before the race and somehow it is spoiled??? I never heard Steve Bauer complaining about it. If you want to get into that, you could psychoanalyze Steve. Why was he second so much? Why did Davis beat him so often? Yadda, yadda, yadda.
The race was the race. The amazing thing to me was that the strongest cycling countries at that time (outside of the Eastern Bloc) were France, Belgium, and Italy. And you can bet their riders were doing more than caffeine. Yet none of them were factors. Why not? It wasn't held at elevation. Two Norwegians got third and fourth. I raced against Dag-Otto plenty of times. He was a good rider, but I don't think he was the third-best amateur in the world back then! I bet the Norwegians did more bad stuff than the Americans ever dreamed of to get third and fourth.
I don't know what to say....but I'll try.
Benotti69, Alexi did NOT blood dope. Ever. He has been forthcoming about all the things he did do, as well as the things he didn't.
Nobody liked Alexi. Alexi didn't like other people. He didn't stay at the Olympic Complex. He wasn't with the other cyclist and Eddie B. and Ed Burke, that joke of a "medical" trainer for the USCF back then. Alexi did NOT blood dope, period. Find one shred of evidence other than your flawed logic. "Gee, if a few people blood doped, then they all must have blood doped..." Get real.
TexPat, you are down on Alexi for his "lack of contrition for '84"??? What exactly is he supposed to be contrite about? He won the Olympics, you knucklehead! He outsprinted one of the top sprinters in the world to do it. I'm sure he faked being tired in order to sit on Steve's wheel. What would you do if you were in a two-up with one of the best sprinters in the world?
Ultimobici, the world is full of "what ifs". The race would have REALLY been different if the Eastern Bloc countries hadn't boycotted. But then you would really have something to complain about, because I'm sure that every single one of those "amateur" had every drug known to man stuck into them, in addition to blood doping.
But Alexi has some herbal tea two weeks before the race and somehow it is spoiled??? I never heard Steve Bauer complaining about it. If you want to get into that, you could psychoanalyze Steve. Why was he second so much? Why did Davis beat him so often? Yadda, yadda, yadda.
The race was the race. The amazing thing to me was that the strongest cycling countries at that time (outside of the Eastern Bloc) were France, Belgium, and Italy. And you can bet their riders were doing more than caffeine. Yet none of them were factors. Why not? It wasn't held at elevation. Two Norwegians got third and fourth. I raced against Dag-Otto plenty of times. He was a good rider, but I don't think he was the third-best amateur in the world back then! I bet the Norwegians did more bad stuff than the Americans ever dreamed of to get third and fourth.
You gotta soft spot for people down on their luck.. Whats your number I gotta list 100 miles long a people who need to talk to ya!Digger said:
Digger said:
Be a champion digger and mellow out. Alexi I worship you. We cool now digger? I get my L.A. privilages back?
- Jan 27, 2010
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ricara said:
How do you know that he NEVER blood doped on a team of blood dopers, and then beat them in the very race we know they doped in? How do you value the honesty of a forthcoming doper? Rules are in place for a reason. He had a banned product in his system, was caught and somehow managed to circumvent the punishment in time to make the Olympics? Explain why he deserved to be there after testing positive?
How do you know this? The preceeding evidence of his life and life-style would suggest the opposite.
Probably because he's soft-spoken, has respect for the sport and doesn't see the utility in complaining about it. We should get CN to do a Steve Bauer interview and ask him what he thinks about doping, dopers and specifically AG.
Is this one of those instances where you KNOW that the Norse did drugs but also KNOW that AG never did blood doping?
NW
A Bauer fan
It's fine to be Steve Bauer fan. He was a great rider and well liked in the peloton. He was one of the few, and by far the most successful Canadian rider of his time. But don't lose reason and go off the farm and start trashing people with absurd and false claims just because you're a fan of Steve Bauer.
Read up you nitwit. This is growing wearisome. From Wikipedia:
"Steve Hegg won a gold and a silver; Rebecca Twigg, Pat McDonough and Leonard Nitz won silver medals. They were identified in the subsequent inquiry as having had transfusions. The others were John Beckman, Mark Whitehead and Brent Emery. The rest of the team refused."
All of the above were TRACK riders with the exception of Twigg, who rode both pursuit and the road race. NONE of the men's road team blood doped. PERIOD.
Depends. In this case quite highly. And much more highly than someone who is obviously doping, has had numerous people corroborate his doping, and yet that person continues to maintain their innocence. Like Lance.
If you bother to read the interviews with Alexi, it is pretty clear that he has been quite forthcoming and is not holding anything back.
Simple. BECAUSE HE FOLLOWED THE RULES.
Again, go read up (something you seem to have trouble with).
He was busted and received the standard (for that time) 30 day suspension. He appealed, and the testing company admitted that they could not distinguish between ephedrine and Alexi's (legal at that time) asthma medication. The suspension was repealed. End of story.
Uhh... I just told you why. All of this is in the material linked in various articles in this thread. Just try reading.
Agreed with all of that, especially would enjoy reading an interview with Steve Bauer on anything he wants to talk about.
I never said that I KNEW the Norwegian team was doping. I never raced against the guy that got 4th, but bronze medalist Dag-Otto Lauritzen lived in the States for a while. (I can't remember, but he may have married an American.) He would stay in Colorado for many weeks before the Coors and participate in the "local" races. Remember, the "local" Colorado races back then every week had people like Phinney, Hampsten, Kiefel, Grewal, Prehn, and others, with more joining before the Coors for altitude training, like the Stetina brothers, Thurlow, Gavin, et cetera, et cetera. In other words, these were practically like European pro events. All of these guys would turn pro immediately after the Olympics and within a couple of years were kicking **** in Europe.
Dag-Otto was a good rider, but believe me that to say he was the third best amateur in the world at that time stretches my credulity. I raced against all of these guys. I could believe Dag-Otto in the top 20. But to be on the podium is pretty, well, unbelievable.
Was he doping? I have no idea. There has been no mention of this that I know of. At that time, the only effective ways of doping were steroids (go Eddy!) and "blood-packing". Blood packing was first popularized by middle distance runner Lasse Viren of....no, not Norway, but Finland. Lasse's antics came to light in the 1980 Olympics (as I recall), so this was not a mystery. It wasn't illegal at that time in cycling, although it's use was "discouraged" (whatever the hell that means). All I'm saying is that just as some performances at the modern TdF's are "suspicious" is that 3rd and 4th at the Olympic road race for Norway (especially having raced against the bronze medalist) was definitely "suspicious" to me.
Do you think that Eddie B. was the only guy to think about blood-packing? I'm just askin', that's all.
Neworld said:
Read up you nitwit. This is growing wearisome. From Wikipedia:
"Steve Hegg won a gold and a silver; Rebecca Twigg, Pat McDonough and Leonard Nitz won silver medals. They were identified in the subsequent inquiry as having had transfusions. The others were John Beckman, Mark Whitehead and Brent Emery. The rest of the team refused."
All of the above were TRACK riders with the exception of Twigg, who rode both pursuit and the road race. NONE of the men's road team blood doped. PERIOD.
Neworld said:
Depends. In this case quite highly. And much more highly than someone who is obviously doping, has had numerous people corroborate his doping, and yet that person continues to maintain their innocence. Like Lance.
If you bother to read the interviews with Alexi, it is pretty clear that he has been quite forthcoming and is not holding anything back.
Neworld said:
Simple. BECAUSE HE FOLLOWED THE RULES.
Again, go read up (something you seem to have trouble with).
He was busted and received the standard (for that time) 30 day suspension. He appealed, and the testing company admitted that they could not distinguish between ephedrine and Alexi's (legal at that time) asthma medication. The suspension was repealed. End of story.
Neworld said:
Uhh... I just told you why. All of this is in the material linked in various articles in this thread. Just try reading.
Neworld said:
Agreed with all of that, especially would enjoy reading an interview with Steve Bauer on anything he wants to talk about.
Neworld said:
I never said that I KNEW the Norwegian team was doping. I never raced against the guy that got 4th, but bronze medalist Dag-Otto Lauritzen lived in the States for a while. (I can't remember, but he may have married an American.) He would stay in Colorado for many weeks before the Coors and participate in the "local" races. Remember, the "local" Colorado races back then every week had people like Phinney, Hampsten, Kiefel, Grewal, Prehn, and others, with more joining before the Coors for altitude training, like the Stetina brothers, Thurlow, Gavin, et cetera, et cetera. In other words, these were practically like European pro events. All of these guys would turn pro immediately after the Olympics and within a couple of years were kicking **** in Europe.
Dag-Otto was a good rider, but believe me that to say he was the third best amateur in the world at that time stretches my credulity. I raced against all of these guys. I could believe Dag-Otto in the top 20. But to be on the podium is pretty, well, unbelievable.
Was he doping? I have no idea. There has been no mention of this that I know of. At that time, the only effective ways of doping were steroids (go Eddy!) and "blood-packing". Blood packing was first popularized by middle distance runner Lasse Viren of....no, not Norway, but Finland. Lasse's antics came to light in the 1980 Olympics (as I recall), so this was not a mystery. It wasn't illegal at that time in cycling, although it's use was "discouraged" (whatever the hell that means). All I'm saying is that just as some performances at the modern TdF's are "suspicious" is that 3rd and 4th at the Olympic road race for Norway (especially having raced against the bronze medalist) was definitely "suspicious" to me.
Do you think that Eddie B. was the only guy to think about blood-packing? I'm just askin', that's all.
- Jul 2, 2009
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http://stevetilford.com/?p=6281#comments
read this all the ways down through comments.
this is going to get interesting...............
read this all the ways down through comments.
this is going to get interesting...............
oldxer said:
How do those guys do it? About ten years after I retired from racing I stopped by a criterium up on The Hill in Boulder. Three-quarters of the pack were the same guys I raced with ten years earlier!
Most of the guys are MIA now. I went to the re-born North Boulder Park Criterium about five years ago and only recognized about ten guys. But Mark Southard was still giving them he!!, and both Beth Wrenn-Estes and Yvonne Van Gent were doing their usual superb jobs of officiating. Made we want to start training again.
Next time you see Bruce, tell him that Charlie Hansen said, "Hi!".
- Jul 2, 2009
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- Sep 9, 2010
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tubularglue said:http://stevetilford.com/?p=6281#comments
read this all the ways down through comments.
this is going to get interesting...............
Whoa!
Thanks for posting this link.
Ricara makes some good points. The '84 Olympics were boycotted by ALL the Eastern European Soviet bloc countries. As such, it was a gold medal fest for the US, and made for great TV viewing (in the US). But the outcome of that road race and MOST other events would have been different if the Soviets and their buddies had shown up.
Also, if the most Grewal did was stuff a peach w/ No-Doze, I could care less. How is that any different than slamming a Coke late in the race -- which pro riders still do today? Caffeine overage is easily detected in post-race pee controls. If Grewal didn't go over, it's not a failed control. And I doubt a peach would allow a climber to outsprint Steve Bauer. (Perhaps -- just perhaps -- Grewal was pretty gifted.)
As for Dag-Otto and the 4th-placed rider, the Norwegians (and Swedes and Finns and Austrians) have a long history of 'funny business' in their Nordic skiing programs. It would not be a stretch to postulate that Dag was ingesting more than peaches.
Regarding Grewal's 'comeback', I don't quite get the ire against him. I've read the linked articles. Where exactly does it say he was/is a drug addict? Where does it say he's a bad father??
Seriously, all I read was that: a) he's poor, b) he's divorced. Neither of those things are crimes! If there is more information that I'm missing, somebody pls enlighten the forum.
Additionally, it's reported that: a) he's religious, b) cares about the homeless, c) takes an activist stance against real-estate developers and local politicians. Again, none of these things are a crime, perhaps even might be seen as admirable qualities.
The guy might have been a prima donna back in the day. But if a 50yr. old guy wants to set a personal/fitness goal for himself, so be it. If he is allowed to ride Quiznos as a publicity-grabber for his "team", why not?
(* Aside: Neworld, from other threads we know you are the ultimate Bauer fan, so you're hatred is excused)
Also, if the most Grewal did was stuff a peach w/ No-Doze, I could care less. How is that any different than slamming a Coke late in the race -- which pro riders still do today? Caffeine overage is easily detected in post-race pee controls. If Grewal didn't go over, it's not a failed control. And I doubt a peach would allow a climber to outsprint Steve Bauer. (Perhaps -- just perhaps -- Grewal was pretty gifted.)
As for Dag-Otto and the 4th-placed rider, the Norwegians (and Swedes and Finns and Austrians) have a long history of 'funny business' in their Nordic skiing programs. It would not be a stretch to postulate that Dag was ingesting more than peaches.
Regarding Grewal's 'comeback', I don't quite get the ire against him. I've read the linked articles. Where exactly does it say he was/is a drug addict? Where does it say he's a bad father??
Seriously, all I read was that: a) he's poor, b) he's divorced. Neither of those things are crimes! If there is more information that I'm missing, somebody pls enlighten the forum.
Additionally, it's reported that: a) he's religious, b) cares about the homeless, c) takes an activist stance against real-estate developers and local politicians. Again, none of these things are a crime, perhaps even might be seen as admirable qualities.
The guy might have been a prima donna back in the day. But if a 50yr. old guy wants to set a personal/fitness goal for himself, so be it. If he is allowed to ride Quiznos as a publicity-grabber for his "team", why not?
(* Aside: Neworld, from other threads we know you are the ultimate Bauer fan, so you're hatred is excused
)Please read the velo-news article about grewal. It is in the magazine. Whenever I think of Alexi I think of the Neal Young song where it goes " I seen the damage that the needles done, every junkies like a setting sun".NashbarShorts said:Ricara makes some good, if obvious, points. The '84 Olympics were boycotted by ALL the Eastern European Soviet bloc countries. As such, it was a gold medal fest for the US, and made for great TV viewing (in the US). But the outcome of that road race and MOST other events would have been different if the Soviets and their buddies had shown up.
Also, if the most Grewal did was stuff a peach w/ No-Doze, I could care less. How is that any different than slamming a Coke late in the race -- which pro riders still do today? Caffeine overage is easily detected in post-race pee controls. If Grewal didn't go over, it's not a failed control.
As for Dag-Otto and the 4th-placed rider, the Norwegians (and Swedes and Finns and Austrians) have a long history of 'funny business' in their Nordic skiing programs. It would not be a stretch to postulate that Dag was ingesting more than peaches.
Regarding Grewal's 'comeback', I don't quite get the ire against him. I've read the linked articles. Where exactly does it say he was/is a drug addict? Where does it say he's a bad father??
Seriously, all I read was that: a) he's poor, b) he's divorced. Neither of those things are crimes! If there is more information that I'm missing, somebody pls enlighten the forum.
Additionally, it's reported that: a) he's religious, b) cares about the homeless, c) takes an activist stance against real-estate developers and local politicians. Again, none of these things is a crime, perhaps even might be seen by some as admirable qualities.
If a 50yr. old guy wants to set a personal/fitness goal, so be it. If he is allowed to ride Quiznos as a publicity-grabber for his "team", who cares?
(* Aside: Neworld, from other threads we know you are the ultimate Bauer fan, so you're hatred is excused
Please excuse the pun but do you really want indidviuals like Alexi Grewal mainiling for the inagural Quizanos stage race?
The other factoid is that to be a top rider one needs to be selfish. Alexi says in the article that he wants to give back. Training 6 hours a day is not giving back.
Neworld said:
If you're referring to the US road team, as I recall, the blood doping was limited to the track riders. I'm not aware that ANY of the road team blood doped.
If you're referring to his later pro teams, that's a different story.
Kennf1 said:
I wonder when blood doping actually became effective. People I have spoken with have told me that blood perishes quickly and seperating red blood cells and concentrating them causes damage to the cells making them a waste of time. Of course donated blood lasts only a short time, I am sure it gets tossed by the blood banks after a short time.
From what I have read from the clinic here everything has been developed into an art as far as blood doping goes. In 84 though, Rebecca Twigg blood doped in the olympics and said it did not help, which I believe. Since it was legal at the time why would she lie?
flicker said:
I still don't quite get it. I've read all 3 linked articles (but not the print article you refer to). From what I've read, Grewal has seen tough times and lack of personal focus, but seems a decent guy, goes to his kids football practices, etc. And the 2008 VNews editorial? It is all about speaking up and hoping that if his sons decide to try bike racing, they won't be confronted w/ the same decisions he had to make.
Also it seems pretty clear that Grewal is saying he never got hardcore into doping. Caffeine, ephedrine. He is honest and admits if he had seen the potential for real personal success in Europe, he would have taken whatever they offered him. But instead, "grace intervened" -- b/c he never found his footing in Europe.
If anything, I'd say Grewal was pretty prescient for writing this:
"When will it end? When.. fallen stars finally and ultimately do hard time. Don’t think they won’t, they will... Prisons and jails are filled with men whose transgressions are much less.. $70,000 for a briefcase of refrigerated hot-rod blood.. driven across international borders, for some bike rider to drink and be celebrated as some kind of cult worship rock star?"
Don't know if he's some kind of oracle, but that 2008 prediction seems like it is on the verge of becoming true. Again, if I am missing where it says he was/is a drug addict, just enlighten me.
(As for him "mainlining" or hogging the Quiznos spotlight, that ain't gonna happen. He would be a sidenote at best, perhaps one call up to the line before the start. Is that such a travesty for the only-ever US Olympic roadrace winner?)
NashbarShorts said:
The article was an honest synapsis of Alexis life until now. It was in his own words. If I have that velo-news I will let everyone here know the issue.
Please be aware I have an attitude towards addiction as it has touched us very seriously, I have been in support of individuals who have been in live- in lockdown drug re-hab, have and who have failed re-hab 7X and finished off crashing in the desert with relatives in car. All died. I have listened to addicts with their N/A spiel and unfortunatly after I read the velo-news article I I heard the same cry for help, the same lying to oneself,self-pity etc.
I do not want to hate on Grewal but I am skeptical. Even in the computer article he said his medal was stolen and he trashed his own accomplishments. If the guy is really serious hell let him race. I think it is a mistake for him and the sport of cycling though. I wish him the best.
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