"Altitude Camps"...really?

[Rob5091]

I think time is running out for Spain and their continual overriding of ABP at legal/government level, put it that way.

So, yes, a judge rejected the passport as proof of doping.

 

[Aragon]

What do you think the dopers are using altitude training for? It is possible that a doper would do the withdrawl aspect of blood doping for later transfusion during a GT or something like that? With the increase of blood values at altitude, especially RET% - maybe the withdrawal wouldn't look so suspicious on the ABP?

If, OTOH, the dopers are microdosing rEPO at altitude that's really not going to be an evasion tactic since microdosing rEPO is currently not flagged on the ABP (see Ashenden's paper). And if the dopers are using bigger, more therapeutic-level doses of rEPO at altitude camps - then they run the risk of getting popped on a test (unless the riders can somehow dodge OOC testing at these camps).

Do you recall what Armstrong & Postal were doing with their blood doping procedures? Did they withdrawl blood at their altitude training camps for later transfusion at the Tour? I don't recall Armstrong taking much about this other than explaining that Postal made the decision to exclusively blood dope during the Tours after the rEPO test came out in 2000.

There can be many reasons to use high altitude training even if one blood doped of which the most evident ones are to hide the use of EPO. If one is a low-responder to high altitude training, there is nothing preventing taking a few extra HCT points with EPO. There is also some research that hypoxia increases performance in ways not related to the elevation of HbMass, e.g. increasing mechanical efficiency.

There has been speculation about blood being withdrawn after high altitude training to elicit a smaller transcient anemia for the cyclist to recover in the 4-5 weeks before reinfusion if one uses the standard +4 C storage. IIRC, this was barely (if at all) mentioned in the USPS USADA-affidavits, and it was mostly speculated during Armstrong's comeback in 2009, when he had a high altitude training preceding the TDF.

The Ashenden et al paper is troubling albeit also somewhat overhyped. Yes, none of the subjects got flagged when on microdoses of EPO, when their HbMass was elevated on average by some 10 %. On the other hand:

- It is partly explained by Hb level being elevated only by some 5.8 %, ie. calculated Hct rising from ~46.6 % to ~49,2 %. This is because there was a noticeable increase in blood volume (+5 %) which concealed the increase in Hb level. It is far from certain if chronically stressed and already hypervolemic elite level athletes have similar increase in BV while on EPO.
- There were no OFF-season ABP-values measured nor alalyzed, and the authors themselves write that likely some their subjects would've been flagged if there had been one or if the sequences were more carefully monitored.

 

[samhocking]

So, yes, a judge rejected the passport as proof of doping.

At national level only though, a spanish judge and CELAD have no jurisdiction over their international riders within ITAs RTP.

 

[Nomad]

Important to remember that Burgos-BH were only Continental level during the period of the passport anomalies so their riders were subject to National anti-doping laws and jurisdiction not International. Also Spain were non-compliant with WADA code during some of this time too I think between 2016 and 2017. Even in 2024 WADA is still finding massive shortcomings in Spain's Anti-Doping for this Olympic year and currently being investigated on several issues related to unmanaged positives, results management, legislation, legal/government interventions, delayed cases and 6 non-sanctioned ABP cases by CELAD.
I think time is running out for Spain and their continual overriding of ABP at legal/government level, put it that way.

Strange that a "Continental" team would be part of a WADA-approved testing pool that allows for ABP monitoring. Is that normal for Continental teams? (WADA has their work cut out with just all the World Pro teams out there. Lol).

Speaking of Ibai Salas Zorrozua of "Burgus BH" here's the details & ABP data from his CAS hearing in 2019 that led to the 4 yr ban for ABP hematological-anomalies:

Spanish cyclist given four year ban over biological passport abnormalities

Spanish cyclist Ibai Salas Zorrozua has been handed a four-year ban after the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ruled he committed an anti-doping r...

www.insidethegames.biz

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared%2520Documents/6226.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjOpcqV4pyFAxWUMjQIHVaDD4kQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2swWAigZ-orhtISuwpXi8G

The three anti-doping experts that reviewed the case & reached an unanimous conclusion were Dr Olaf Schumacher, Prof Guiseppe d'Onofrio & Prof Michel Audran (these three have probably reviewed hundreds of CAS cases together).

In a nutshell, Zorrozua had six (6) samples taken from Jan/2017 through Aug/2017 (all negative for rEPO/ESA). Samples #1 & #4 were flagged for hematological anomalies. Sample #1 had a very high OFF-score of 141.00: (Hgb 17.1 (51.3 Hct) RET% 0.25). According to the report, the baseline OFF-score for Zorrozua was determined to be between 90-100.

The anti-experts concluded that "The likelihood of observing an OFF-score of 141 in an undoped male athlete even considering a "worst case scenario" (i.e. all confounding factors such as altitude in favor of the athlete) is about 1:10,000."

The reports states Zorrozua attended an altitude camp 6 days at 1246m until 5 days before sample #1 collection, and also used an altitude tent simulating 2000m 10 days prior to sample #1.

 

[samhocking]

Strange that a "Continental" team would be part of a WADA-approved testing pool that allows for ABP monitoring. Is that normal for Continental teams? (WADA has their work cut out with just all the World Pro teams out there. Lol).

Speaking of Ibai Salas Zorrozua of "Burgus BH" here's the details & ABP data from his CAS hearing in 2019 that led to the 4 yr ban for ABP hematological-anomalies:

Spanish cyclist given four year ban over biological passport abnormalities

Spanish cyclist Ibai Salas Zorrozua has been handed a four-year ban after the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ruled he committed an anti-doping r...

www.insidethegames.biz

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared%2520Documents/6226.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjOpcqV4pyFAxWUMjQIHVaDD4kQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2swWAigZ-orhtISuwpXi8G

The three anti-doping experts that reviewed the case & reached an unanimous conclusion were Dr Olaf Schumacher, Prof Guiseppe d'Onofrio & Prof Michel Audran (these three have probably reviewed hundreds of CAS cases together).

In a nutshell, Zorrozua had six (6) samples taken from Jan/2017 through Aug/2017 (all negative for rEPO/ESA). Samples #1 & #4 were flagged for hematological anomalies. Sample #1 had a very high OFF-score of 141.00: (Hgb 17.1 (51.3 Hct) RET% 0.25). According to the report, the baseline OFF-score for Zorrozua was determined to be between 90-100.

The anti-experts concluded that "The likelihood of observing an OFF-score of 141 in an undoped male athlete even considering a "worst case scenario" (i.e. all confounding factors such as altitude in favor of the athlete) is about 1:10,000."

The reports states Zorrozua attended an altitude camp 6 days at 1246m until 5 days before sample #1 collection, and also used an altitude tent simulating 2000m 10 days prior to sample #1.

ITA's registered testing pool relates only to 'International' level athlete's whereabouts (a pool of Pro Conti and World Tour riders subject to UCI/ITA out of competition, not Conti level) it has nothing directly to do with the athletes biological passport other than those out of competition test results are included in their ABP record.
But, every NADO also has their own registered testing pool of national-level athletes too (Continental riders) because national level sports governing bodies do not run their own anti-doping systems, their countries NADO does. Testing also crosses NADO boundaries too. e.g. a German NADO could test a Spanish athlete and then CELAD would be responsible for results management or e.g. UKAD could ask CELAD to test a British rider in Spain as part of ABP or target testing.

 

[veganrob]

here's Siutsou's partial list of testing

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/BnV218CAPdX/


you can see La Orotava (north side of Teide)
as I said before, testers don't travel with a nice UCI/WADA gilet. they could fly to Tenerife in the evening, get a hotel, and knock on the Mirador hotel doors at 6 am the following day for the riders testing time slot.
even easier if riders are in Livigno or Sierra Nevada, just drive there for the riders testing time slot

Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't the blood or urine samples have to be sent to lab within x number of hours from being taken by tester. There was an example of MLB player beating a positive because sample was not sent within 24 hrs. I'm not positive of time though. Thanks

 

[pastronef]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't the blood or urine samples have to be sent to lab within x number of hours from being taken by tester. There was an example of MLB player beating a positive because sample was not sent within 24 hrs. I'm not positive of time though. Thanks

I don't know the time limit for samples to be sent.

 

[nayr497]

I think you mean no ABP anomalies bans since 2014? (I believe there's been several doping positives since then...am I correct?).

I mentioned Olaf Schumacher as one of the top anti-doping experts in the field - he also has expertise in altitude's effect on the ABP. I haven't done much research in this area but Schumacher has co-authored several papers on this subject that you might find interesting.

One paper here looked at a group of highly-trained cyclists - some altitude natives - competing in a 14 day stage race over an average altitude of 8000 ft. There were increases in blood values due to hypoxia with one cyclist even reaching the 99.9% specificity level. However, as the researchers concluded this was not unexpected & the ABP would have been adjusted to account for the anomalies (i.e., no passport anomalies case ban would have been initiated).

High altitude, prolonged exercise, and the athlete biological passport - PubMed

The Athlete Biological Passport (ABP) detects blood doping in athletes through longitudinal monitoring of erythropoietic markers. Mathematical algorithms are used to define individual reference ranges for these markers for each athlete. It is unclear if altitude and exercise can affect the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Interestingly, I've seen some papers on altitude-native distance runners (e.g. Kenyons) that live & train at altitude year round (> 7000 ft). They have notably high Hcts but upon descending to sea level for competitions these values surprisingly drop pretty quickly to more in line with the values of sea level athletes.

Boy, I had no idea Ohio was that hilly

Just kidding. Thank you for some dang good information on all of this. What some of these cyclists are doing is just slightly more advanced than the ol' "finishing bottle"...

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Derrick Gee did before this Dauphine his first altitude camp. Now he's climbing like Adam Yates. Sleeping at 2000m can make all the difference?

 

[zlev11]

sleeping at 2000m and pounding EPO, yes

 

[Froome]

Derrick Gee did before this Dauphine his first altitude camp. Now he's climbing like Adam Yates. Sleeping at 2000m can make all the difference?

Probably he also taked for the first time Ketones.

 

[Nick2413]

The Dauphine creates monsters. Hopefully Gee doesn’t mysteriously end up MIA the next few years like Padun.

 

[pastronef]

"Bryan Coquard: "C'est ma plus grande victoire aujourd'hui ! J'ai souvent fini 2e, notamment sur le Tour de France dont une étape (en 2016) pour 28mm derrière Marcel Kittel. Je suis très content, je rentre d'altitude, en vue du TDF, et je gagne donc c'est parfait!" #TourdeSuisse

Coquard coming from altitude and winning

 

[Sciatic]

"Bryan Coquard: "C'est ma plus grande victoire aujourd'hui ! J'ai souvent fini 2e, notamment sur le Tour de France dont une étape (en 2016) pour 28mm derrière Marcel Kittel. Je suis très content, je rentre d'altitude, en vue du TDF, et je gagne donc c'est parfait!" #TourdeSuisse

Coquard coming from altitude and winning

For sprinter’s I imagine the benefit of altitude is in making climbs earlier in race easier to get over, so they can stay with a front group and have more matches left for the sprint. Since the sprint itself is anaerobic, I don’t know how much simple having a higher HCT (with no other “additives”) benefits them at that point?

 

[Nomad]

Having a high Hct must have benefitted sprinters back in the day. Cipollini, Zabel & Petachhi are all confirmed EPO & blood transfusion users. In fact, "Cipo" is hands down Italy's best sprinter & arguably one of the top 3 ever in the sport:

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme

www.cyclingnews.com

There must be some benefit in sprint performance with a higher Hgb/Hct at anaerobic threshold & sub-maximum effort or these guys wouldn't have bothered using it (why not just use steroids & HGH?).

 

[Sciatic]

Having a high Hct must have benefitted sprinters back in the day. Cipollini, Zabel & Petachhi are all confirmed EPO & blood transfusion users. In fact, "Cipo" is hands down Italy's best sprinter & arguably one of the top 3 ever in the sport:

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme

www.cyclingnews.com

There must be some benefit in sprint performance with a higher Hgb/Hct at anaerobic threshold & sub-maximum effort or these guys wouldn't have bothered using it (why not just use steroids & HGH?).

Like as mentioned there would definitely be a benefit during the stage before asprint finish because it will help them get over climbs without being dropped and spend less energy while doing so. But I think you’re probably right about it benefitting them in the sprint as well, I just don’t know how that part of pharma-physiology works

 

[Ripper]

Having a high Hct must have benefitted sprinters back in the day. Cipollini, Zabel & Petachhi are all confirmed EPO & blood transfusion users. In fact, "Cipo" is hands down Italy's best sprinter & arguably one of the top 3 ever in the sport:

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme

www.cyclingnews.com

There must be some benefit in sprint performance with a higher Hgb/Hct at anaerobic threshold & sub-maximum effort or these guys wouldn't have bothered using it (why not just use steroids & HGH?).

I wonder if he used 20+ blood bags all at once?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I wonder if he used 20+ blood bags all at once?

I think it would have had to be some very small bags unless he was trying to kill himself.

 

[Extinction]

Not a new thought, but I am getting bothered by how easily everyone discusses altitude camps and their effects. "Hey, such-and-such rider hasn't gone to altitude yet, they're not on top form", etc. While I realize altitude camps have some actual benefit, seems they're mostly a euphemism to get by whatever the Passport is meant to do. "Our blood values have changed because we've been at altitude for 3 weeks."

Seems like blood values have changed because y'all have been micro-dosing EPO or whatever you're doing these days. Seems patently obvious these camps are just doping with folks looking the other way.

And notice how the praxis of altitudine camps only came in during the EPO era. Rominger I think was a pioneer. The benefits of altitudine training fade quickly once back to sea level. So it must be to mask doping. When Rominger went to altitudine they probably thought he'll get a double-boost, from altitude and EPO. Now it's more likely to explain away fluctuations in the bio passport, while you are microdosing EPO (mixed with olive oil).

 

[Nomad]

I've wondered about that - did the old timers pre-EPO era ever do any altitude training? For sure now, it's the buzzword not only with cyclists but most endurance athletes in general.

 

[Sciatic]

And notice how the praxis of altitudine camps only came in during the EPO era. Rominger I think was a pioneer. The benefits of altitudine training fade quickly once back to sea level. So it must be to mask doping. When Rominger went to altitudine they probably thought he'll get a double-boost, from altitude and EPO. Now it's more likely to explain away fluctuations in the bio passport, while you are microdosing EPO (mixed with olive oil).

The HCT boost produced by hypoxia at altitude gradually declines back to baseline level
Over the course of about two weeks.

 

[Nomad]

Is it that long unless you're at very high altitude (>9500 ft) for extended periods of time (over several months)?

I recall seeing a paper on this cited in the one of CAS hearings involving an anomalies case with an altitude native. This particular athlete (distance runner) lived & trained most of the year at about ~6800 ft. It was said in the hearing that Hct will increase ~10% & OFF-score will increase on the magnitude of 10-20 pts at that particular altitude. However, upon descending to sea level blood values & OFF-score drop significantly within one week. And virtually every athlete dinged on hematological anomalies cases is claiming altitude as their #1 explanation for the anomalies.

I'll try to find the paper. Renowned anti-doping expert Olaf Schumacher has authored many papers on altitude & the ABP. Another anti-doping expert, Dr Laura Garvican-Lewis, did her thesis on altitude exposure & (de)training on hematological parameters.

 

[Sciatic]

Is it that long unless you're at very high altitude (>9500 ft) for extended periods of time (over several months)?

I recall seeing a paper on this cited in the one of CAS hearings involving an anomalies case with an altitude native. This particular athlete (distance runner) lived & trained most of the year at about ~6800 ft. It was said in the hearing that Hct will increase ~10% & OFF-score will increase on the magnitude of 10-20 pts at that particular altitude. However, upon descending to sea level blood values & OFF-score drop significantly within one week. And virtually every athlete dinged on hematological anomalies cases is claiming altitude as their #1 explanation for the anomalies.

I'll try to find the paper. Renowned anti-doping expert Olaf Schumacher has authored many papers on altitude & the ABP. Another anti-doping expert, Dr Laura Garvican-Lewis, did her thesis on altitude exposure & (de)training on hematological parameters.

Good question--it seems to vary by study and there is also individual variation.
" Even if immediately after or a few days after a return to sea level, hematological variables are elevated, some data indicate that nearly all of the hypoxia-induced changes may be lost within 1–2 weeks (Pottgiesser et al., 2012). Chapman et al.(2014) noted a decrease in RCV, while Brugniaux et al. (2006) observed a drop in tHbmass to the baseline level after 14 to 15 days following the completion of altitude training. . . . On the other hand, in a study conducted by Brocherie et al. (2015), the tHbmass was significantly higher 3 weeks after altitude training compared to pre-altitude levels and this result remains consistent with the model proposed by Gore et al. (2013), where gains in tHbmass values are estimated for 3 weeks"
From:
Płoszczyca, Kamila ; Langfort, Józef ; Czuba, Miłosz, "The Effects of Altitude Training on Erythropoietic Response and Hematological Variables in Adult Athletes: A Narrative Review," Frontiers in physiology, 2018. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5904371/

 

[Extinction]

The HCT boost produced by hypoxia at altitude gradually declines back to baseline level
Over the course of about two weeks.

I thought it's a week.

 

[Sciatic]

I thought it's a week.

See the summary of studies posted above: anywhere from one to three weeks.