Aluminum Framed Bikes Coming Back?

[alitogata]

I've got an aluminum fork bike as well as my beater. Its locally built Evolution from the mid 90's. Maybe the stiffest/harshest bike ever made with main tubes that are cannondale sized but stays that are twice as big as a dale. Really tight rear triangle as well and steep criterium angles - its not that bad to ride and the only time I really dont like it is on really rough dirt roads .

Really its not about hating carbon for me. i just prefer an aluminium frame. When its going to get chucked n the back of cars, crashed, and generally get a hard life, i'll pass n carbon every time. Mountain bike is alloy too and this makes sense on something that is going to get crashed a lot and take big hits with stones and sticks thrown up from the trail.

I don't hate carbon either. It is a good material for race riders ( who don't pay from their pockets in order to renew often their gear), but I don't really like the generalizations of the type "nothing can be compared with carbon" or " all aluminum frames are stiff".

There are very good quality aluminum frames that are suitable for races too and are strong and reliable and smooth too.

But as I said above, bike industries don't gain so much money from aluminum which doesn't sound so exotic as carbon and can't be sold in high prices.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Aluminum and carbon both are great materials for frames but aluminum bikes will not return in the high-end market.

Bike manufacturers sell what people want to buy. I know a guy that quit brazing lugged bikes 20+ years ago. He had a solid niche. TIG/MIG(????) welded steel did him in first. He had written it all off *for sure* when aluminum was the new bromance material.

He's getting paid to braze steel again. A little better than he was in the past too. That's the bike industry for you...

Meanwhile, Kinesis keeps working the aluminum alloys into pretty amazing shapes. They can seem to do new things more quickly than carbon too. Finally, the all-in cost for the first carbon model is getting incredibly expensive with pretty short model lifespans. So, I think things will even-out with niches for each kind of material.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Carbon is everywhere, carbon is boring and most ride like crappola but 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday', is alive and well.

You bring up a good point here, I've test ridden more than a few carbon bikes, and I thought the ride was very rough IMO. I liked steel and AL frames rides better.

Carbon still rules on race day, love racing mine, and there will be no resurgence of Aluminum back in to the Pro Tour.

I'm not so sure....might not jump alot immediately. But, you get one or two guys win, or come in top 3 on Al, and you'll see more riders/teams consider using AL frames again. If Wiggins or Cadel won a tour using AL, how many casual cycling fans will go out and demand AL? ALOT.(just my opinion)

 

[86TDFWinner]

Bike manufacturers sell what people want to buy. I know a guy that quit brazing lugged bikes 20+ years ago. He had a solid niche. TIG/MIG(????) welded steel did him in first. He had written it all off *for sure* when aluminum was the new bromance material.

He's getting paid to braze steel again. A little better than he was in the past too. That's the bike industry for you...

Meanwhile, Kinesis keeps working the aluminum alloys into pretty amazing shapes. They can seem to do new things more quickly than carbon too. Finally, the all-in cost for the first carbon model is getting incredibly expensive with pretty short model lifespans. So, I think things will even-out with niches for each kind of material.

Good point, thats what the article talks about too, that while CF is the "main man" right now in the racing industry, we as consumers are finding that the bikes are getting more and more expensive to produce and buy. My buddy owns 3 CF's and Ti and an AL, and he likes the TI and Al alot better than the CF's.

 

[ElChingon]

I do have an all aluminum + aluminum fork bike and I bought it exactly for what it is. And trust me I don't need a dental insurance because my bike is super smooth with my 48 kilos on it. So the next time you would like to be ironic.. ask first.. ( My bike is a Trek Lexa +Campagnolo Athena 10sp and Ambrosio Laser comp wheels with ceramic ball bearings. Handlebar, stem and saddle post are all from titanium).

ETA: What you really missing is that I will be able to sell my all aluminum bike in ten years from now ( if I don't crash it or destroy it somehow ) even in the one third of its price.. Someone will be interested to buy it.. But as far as I know no one will like to buy a ten years old carbon bike frame.. and I'm saying this because I know that people don't buy now 2003 carbon bike frames. That's a serious indication about the longevity of a frame material.

Well if you keep giving us just a spot of info on what it is you are liking then who's to know, next you'll post you own a custom carbon lay up shop.

End of the day, carbon can be made to ride like any other material or better well actually has and is. Everything else has done what it can and is only there for historical accounts(ing). Say what you can dream up of but no one and no one will ever ride anything else in the Pro Peloton. Just look at what that French guy did last year (Guesdon) on his farewell Paris-Roubaix, brought the alloy bike as a show piece but what did he ride at the end of the day? Yes, carbon.

 

[42x16ss]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy

maybe titanium alloys will jump into the industry?

let's face it aluminium is cheap and the big companies want something they can sell at an high price as an luxury item (the typical fred market ) and titanium alloys gather all necessary characteristics

even more expensive then carbon fiber but also better (lighter and tougher)

just an idea. . .

Titanium will never be popular with the big manufacturers unless it is at an unrealistic premium.

Why? Unless you are racing at a high level, it's too good. I know several people who have owned Ti frames for 10, 15, 20 years, riding 10's of thousands of km's and they still look as good as the day that they were bought, all they have done is upgrade the running gear. Add in the fact that it is expensive, tough on tools and very difficult to work with and you can see why Ti is only favored by the low volume, custom market.

 

[rgmerk]

Titanium will never be popular with the big manufacturers unless it is at an unrealistic premium.

Why? Unless you are racing at a high level, it's too good. I know several people who have owned Ti frames for 10, 15, 20 years, riding 10's of thousands of km's and they still look as good as the day that they were bought, all they have done is upgrade the running gear. Add in the fact that it is expensive, tough on tools and very difficult to work with and you can see why Ti is only favored by the low volume, custom market.

There are a couple of factors that might change this in the future.

There's a company which is commercializing a new process to refine titanium. If they succeed, the cost will be a fraction of the present costs.

The second thing is that titanium can be 3D printed. At the moment, it's very expensive, but the price should come down over time.

Put those two technologies together and you might (emphasis might) be able to print a custom titanium bike frame for not a lot of money.

 

[ElChingon]

There are a couple of factors that might change this in the future.

There's a company which is commercializing a new process to refine titanium. If they succeed, the cost will be a fraction of the present costs.

The second thing is that titanium can be 3D printed. At the moment, it's very expensive, but the price should come down over time.

Put those two technologies together and you might (emphasis might) be able to print a custom titanium bike frame for not a lot of money.

I think anything you create with that 3D printing process will never be the same as an extruded tube, as in metal hardening due to the process to make the tubes. Making a frame is not just picking a material and bamm frame, there are many little intricate processes that must be right from how a metal tube is formed at what temperature and under specific conditions then how its put together, weld type and welding rod material; same for Carbon, its not just laying up weaves and epoxy and then baking it. Many people generalize way too much on what it takes to make a bike frame, when its much more complicated than they ever imagined.

 

[42x16ss]

There are a couple of factors that might change this in the future.

There's a company which is commercializing a new process to refine titanium. If they succeed, the cost will be a fraction of the present costs.

The second thing is that titanium can be 3D printed. At the moment, it's very expensive, but the price should come down over time.

Put those two technologies together and you might (emphasis might) be able to print a custom titanium bike frame for not a lot of money.

What you must remember is that even if the cost of Ti goes down, the stuff is still ridiculously durable, repairable and doesn't corrode. When the geometry, sizing and weight of the frame are all good to start with, the owners of good Ti frames aren't anywhere near as likely to go out and by a brand new Trek/SpecEd/Giant/Pinarello because their favorite rider this week just won on one last week. If the big manufacturers can't get you to change your bike every 18-24 months where is that going to leave them?

 

[BroDeal]

Just look at what that French guy did last year (Guesdon) on his farewell Paris-Roubaix, brought the alloy bike as a show piece but what did he ride at the end of the day? Yes, carbon.

Pros ride what they are paid to ride, and sponsors pay pros to use what makes the company the most money. So don't try to use what Guesdon rode at P-R as evidence of anything other than he was abiding by his team's bike contract.

 

[ElChingon]

Pros ride what they are paid to ride, and sponsors pay pros to use what makes the company the most money. So don't try to use what Guesdon rode at P-R as evidence of anything other than he was abiding by his team's bike contract.

Thank you for sealing the fact that Aluminum frames will not return to the Pro Peloton.

 

[alitogata]

Well if you keep giving us just a spot of info on what it is you are liking then who's to know, next you'll post you own a custom carbon lay up shop.

End of the day, carbon can be made to ride like any other material or better well actually has and is. Everything else has done what it can and is only there for historical accounts(ing). Say what you can dream up of but no one and no one will ever ride anything else in the Pro Peloton. Just look at what that French guy did last year (Guesdon) on his farewell Paris-Roubaix, brought the alloy bike as a show piece but what did he ride at the end of the day? Yes, carbon.

I think that 42x16ss gives a very good point about why carbon is preferred as a material.

What you must remember is that even if the cost of Ti goes down, the stuff is still ridiculously durable, repairable and doesn't corrode. When the geometry, sizing and weight of the frame are all good to start with, the owners of good Ti frames aren't anywhere near as likely to go out and by a brand new Trek/SpecEd/Giant/Pinarello because their favorite rider this week just won on one last week. If the big manufacturers can't get you to change your bike every 18-24 months where is that going to leave them?

Pro races are the "catwalks" of cycling.New models shown there in order for people to buy them replacing in most of the cases, their older, 1-2 years old, carbon frames, which have to replace because carbon doesn't last for ages and after 5-6 years will not have a decent resale price.
You will not see something that lasts for ages in pro races, because market can't work this way. But carbon is for people that can afford the constant upgrades.

Pro racers ( the models of the cycling catwalks), on the other hand, don't choose themselves what they ride, the sponsors make the choice for them. But I bet that if bike manufacturers find a way to build and market Titanium, ( or any other material),with the right correlation between cost and retail price, we will see pro racers running with Ti frames, or anything else .

As for me, I'm not a pro racer, and I don't have the budget to change frames, every two three years, or sponsors beside me to replace a carbon or custom frame if I damage it in an accident. And I didn't even have the budget to build an all custom steel frame in my xs womens size, as custom frames have usually the double price of ready sized ones.

So I chose what it was more affordable to buy and had the characteristics I wanted. Good price, lasting in time, lasting in case of accident, not stiff, light weight, which I modified it with very good quality of parts, ( not top, but above average), being sure that I have a lot of possibilities for resale it sooner of later if I want or need to do so.

What I describe here is the difference between how industry views its clients' preferences, and how clients view the characteristics that the products have to have when they buy them. But the same happens everywhere else.. Even in clothes fashion.

 

[alitogata]

Thank you for sealing the fact that Aluminum frames will not return to the Pro Peloton.

You are wrong about this. If manufactures find out that their potential clients are not able to buy what they show off in the pro race "catwalks", they will return to any material it is possible to be massively sold. ( I'm not sure if I wrote this right but anyway ) .

Buyers are those who support manufacturers, not the opposite. Markets work for profit, if this doesn't happen, they will adjust accordingly.

Judging from what recession has done to 5-6 countries in Europe, ( we are talking about 100 million people), in just 5 years, don't be surprised if you see "catwalks" changing totally what they are showing off.

 

[ElChingon]

You are wrong about this. If manufactures find out that their potential clients are not able to buy what they show off in the pro race "catwalks", they will return to any material it is possible to be massively sold. ( I'm not sure if I wrote this right but anyway ) .

Buyers are those who support manufacturers, not the opposite. Markets work for profit, if this doesn't happen, they will adjust accordingly.

Judging from what recession has done to 5-6 countries in Europe, ( we are talking about 100 million people), in just 5 years, don't be surprised if you see "catwalks" changing totally what they are showing off.

Well how a bout a bet, you can post once the Pro Peloton converts to Aluminum and on that day I stop posting, and I'm talking whole teams not one one off bike ridden by a rider who took one to many falls on his head. You believe in it so much and thing will be done soon so why not support your cause/thought/dream/mirage

 

[42x16ss]

Well how a bout a bet, you can post once the Pro Peloton converts to Aluminum and on that day I stop posting, and I'm talking whole teams not one one off bike ridden by a rider who took one to many falls on his head. You believe in it so much and thing will be done soon so why not support your cause/thought/dream/mirage

That's a little loaded. The pro peloton will continue to favour carbon until something even better comes along, it's still the best overall frame material for racing. However, for mere mortals a well made aluminum, steel or titanium frame is plenty until you start getting to higher end of amateur racing, which a majority of people never will.

 

[alitogata]

Well how a bout a bet, you can post once the Pro Peloton converts to Aluminum and on that day I stop posting, and I'm talking whole teams not one one off bike ridden by a rider who took one to many falls on his head. You believe in it so much and thing will be done soon so why not support your cause/thought/dream/mirage

It seems that you deliberately pretend that you don't get what my point is. Let me repeat it for you.
As far as carbon is marketable to the masses, in high price with low cost, you will see it in the races. If people can't be able to buy it any more, or pay for constant upgrades, (and this is very possible and already happens for a big part of European, at least, market) you will see in the races, frames made from any other material more marketable. Aluminum is currently the next, but I DIDN'T say anywhere that there are no other materials that can be used. We don't know what technological innovation has to offer. And we can't be sure what will be the future condition in the markets. Perhaps technology may not be able to catch up markets' fall, or perhaps a new material, or a new technique in building frames will come up, allowing manufacturers to have lower retail prices.

That's a little loaded. The pro peloton will continue to favour carbon until something even better comes along, it's still the best overall frame material for racing. However, for mere mortals a well made aluminum, steel or titanium frame is plenty until you start getting to higher end of amateur racing, which a majority of people never will.

Being the best material for racing is not the same with best material to be sold. Races are half athletic competition and half promotion of new products. ElChingon, who ironically replies to me about my (supposed) dreams and mirages, seems to be the more romantic, because it seems to believe that manufacturers sponsor teams because they love sports.Unfortunately this is not the case. Sponsors support teams because they want to sell products, and they hype these products, according their interests.

Carbon has been for many years the IT material. Cheap to make, exotic, easy to be sold in high prices to people that had ( till now) the money to change frames every couple of years.

But now things seem to change with lot of factors involving in the game. People's needs and purchasing capacity, longevity of each material, cost of building and retailing price etc etc etc.

 

[ElChingon]

It seems that you deliberately pretend that you don't get what my point is. Let me repeat it for you.
As far as carbon is marketable to the masses, in high price with low cost, you will see it in the races. If people can't be able to buy it any more, or pay for constant upgrades, (and this is very possible and already happens for a big part of European, at least, market) you will see in the races, frames made from any other material more marketable. Aluminum is currently the next, but I DIDN'T say anywhere that there are no other materials that can be used. We don't know what technological innovation has to offer. And we can't be sure what will be the future condition in the markets. Perhaps technology may not be able to catch up markets' fall, or perhaps a new material, or a new technique in building frames will come up, allowing manufacturers to have lower retail prices.



Being the best material for racing is not the same with best material to be sold. Races are half athletic competition and half promotion of new products. ElChingon, who ironically replies to me about my (supposed) dreams and mirages, seems to be the more romantic, because it seems to believe that manufacturers sponsor teams because they love sports.Unfortunately this is not the case. Sponsors support teams because they want to sell products, and they hype these products, according their interests.

Carbon has been for many years the IT material. Cheap to make, exotic, easy to be sold in high prices to people that had ( till now) the money to change frames every couple of years.

But now things seem to change with lot of factors involving in the game. People's needs and purchasing capacity, longevity of each material, cost of building and retailing price etc etc etc.

Agh man you are only reading your posts. You state Carbon is cheat to make yet who can cheaply actually make a frame that you know or are in anyway close to? Whereas Aluminum tubes can be bought pretty readily unless you live in a undomesticated part of earth and there is a tig welder within a 100 KM radius or miles radius of anyone on the planet, just ask for one. Yet carbon is cheaper? Can you provide your Carbon frame economic datasheet so the rest of the world can start producing cheap carbon frames, parts? I'm sure you probably own an oven that can fit a frame and its mold, might find one on e-bay right, craigslist?

Aluminum is the next Steel, real, dead and no longer a material to be used for quality/high-end FRAMES, some parts though till Carbon prices can be reduced for them as well. You will have to move your Aluminum romance with the Steel frame groupies, you might find some company there and you can recall your Aluminum/Steel/Alloy fantasies.

Pro's are made to ride frames that are labeled just like their sponsor but not all of those frames are actually made by the labeled company, some companies are making copy's or pseudo frames that look like the label but are actually another. Why? Because the rider prefers brand X and they are good enough to get what they wan. This has been going on since, well forever and has yet to stop and will not.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Good point, thats what the article talks about too, that while CF is the "main man" right now in the racing industry, we as consumers are finding that the bikes are getting more and more expensive to produce and buy. My buddy owns 3 CF's and Ti and an AL, and he likes the TI and Al alot better than the CF's.

I'd be interested to know if the alloy bikes are a bit longer wheelbase, a bit more relaxed. For reasons I can't understand, higher-end recreational bike geometry has gotten progressively tighter as if it makes riding better. I see it in 'cross and XC mountain bikes too!

Both high-end aluminum and titanium welding is **very** precise work. Naked welds demand it. So, you can't get just any old welder off the street. Current high-end aluminum frame building requires heat-treatment after the join. Alloys have kept innovating thanks to it's many uses.

Alloys have a place in the bike market. I don't think the profit margin will be there for aluminum to return to the elite peloton, so the newer enthusiasts will probably be tricked into buying the carbon gear for a long while.


Man, if I had the time/money I'd get started with 3D Ti printing. That is the future.

 

[alitogata]

Agh man you are only reading your posts.

And you are the one who don't read them at all, because if you did so, you would know by now that I am a woman and not a man..

 

[BroDeal]

Lynskey is now offering a Shimano 105 bike with Ti frame for $2499. Titanium was everywhere at NAHBS. Metal is on the up.

 

[ElChingon]

And you are the one who don't read them at all, because if you did so, you would know by now that I am a woman and not a man..

So you seek to be identified as one because? I assume you are a forum-ite and nothing else till proven otherwise.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Craig Gaulzetti is making some awesome Aluminum race frames, and a helluva nice guy!

 

[alitogata]

So you seek to be identified as one because? I assume you are a forum-ite and nothing else till proven otherwise.

You assume too many things, ( you did it previously too ) and you have a tendency to reply to everyone on a personal level without even pay any attention to what they say. Cool down because if you keep on this way, soon you will discuss only with yourself.

 

[ElChingon]

You assume too many things, ( you did it previously too ) and you have a tendency to reply to everyone on a personal level without even pay any attention to what they say. Cool down because if you keep on this way, soon you will discuss only with yourself.

What? You are a spot info poster so without enough info posters must assume the info you fail to post.

 

[kuoirad]

Craig Gaulzetti is making some awesome Aluminum race frames, and a helluva nice guy!

I really wish they could have held off on holding NAHBS until I was going to be in Boulder in mid-May...