Aluminum Framed Bikes Coming Back?

[stutue]

Well, itll be interesting to see if manufacturers have over come the issues that occurred when they tried to lighten aluminium frames...

....anyone remember the Bianchi EV series?

I rather like aluminium frames though.

 

[Captain Serious]

Was that a Challenger, with CF rear stays?

Those super light scandium frames were amazing....but, racing only.

Ha. I had a used one of those, but returned if after about 2 days because it creaked like fark, and we couldn't stop the noise. Jee, it was sexy, though,

I had a great relationship with a shop here who sold mostly used stuff. I put a deposit on the Challenger frame, then took it home and put it together. I was very disappointed to find that it creaked like crazy; worse than any bike I've heard. So, I returned it and got my deposit back.

It sounds like it was a blessing in disguise, as it probably would've busted eventually.

It was very light: about 1215g for a 57cm

 

[Captain Serious]

I have been riding a lugged carbon frame for nearly ten years now and crashed it plenty of times with no structural problems. It seems they just built them more robust back then.

So it worries me to spend several thousand dollars on a frame that may not make it past it's first crash. So back to my original does anyone know anything about these frames http://www.gaulzetticicli.com/corsa/ ? Good or bad ?

Sorry, I don't know anything about those, other than that that's obviously a lot of money for aluminium -- I'm sure you knew that.
Also, what's the deal with the seat mast? I hope it's a lot thicker that the rest of the seat tube.

anyway, I'm sure you've heard this, but it's hard to beat the value of a used CAAD. I bought an old, 58cm Caad 8 frame for 40 bucks (no fork), coz it has a dent on the top tube, and it's 1265g. I often race on it.

 

[42x16ss]

Sorry, I don't know anything about those, other than that that's obviously a lot of money for aluminium -- I'm sure you knew that.
Also, what's the deal with the seat mast? I hope it's a lot thicker that the rest of the seat tube.

anyway, I'm sure you've heard this, but it's hard to beat the value of a used CAAD. I bought an old, 58cm Caad 8 frame for 40 bucks (no fork), coz it has a dent on the top tube, and it's 1265g. I often race on it.

Why can't I ever find a deal like that

What fork are you running?

 

[Captain Serious]

Yep, I was obviously very lucky. It's my first Cannondale.

At the moment it's just got an old Columbus Link fork on it. It's my stiffest fork, so I wanted to make it my stiffest bike.

Someone had agreed to buy it for $100, cutting the auction in the process (I hate that), but didn't realize it had a dent (because he didn't read the ad properly), so he changed his mind.

So, it suddenly showed up again and I scored it.

That was well over a year ago, and I've been trying to get another one for a good price since, but haven't had any luck.

At the moment it's just got an old Columbus Link fork on it. It's my stiffest fork, so I wanted to make it my stiffest bike.

I'd hit this one in a second (even though I'd prefer a 58), but he's asking too much, I reckon.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cannonda...t=AU_Sport_Cycling_Frames&hash=item1e8ae5289d

Mine's far from the hottest Caad ever designed, but ya don't look at it when ya're trying to smash people.

 

[avanti]

Ha. I had a used one of those, but returned if after about 2 days because it creaked like fark, and we couldn't stop the noise.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I had an aluminum Cervelo bike that started creaking - it took a while to figure out it was the seat post rubbing in the down tube. Application of silicone grease cured the problem

 

[Master50]

Aluminum breaks. that some frames last 20 to 30 years probably means they were way overbuilt. CF, when correctly engineered surpasses every metallic material for fatigue resistance and we do see 20 year old CF frames that have almost the same characteristics as they had new. Some modern CF frames are tougher by a country mile. Have a look at some of the frame testing from Santa Cruz MTB.. taking a CF frame that has seen 2 years of pro racing and watch the abuse test. It is a guy smacking the down tube on a cinder block. their aluminum frames always fail earlier. Always.
Then there is the downright racism in some of these posts. Chinese workers, just like the taiwanese workers before them have become some of the best frame builders anywhere and yes they can lay up CF or steel, titanium, or aluminium just like the South Americans will be or the Africans next. It is a skilled job and 6 months of welding experience is generally enough to train any welder to make the same weld over and over.
As Labour gets more expensive in China the costs rise so the kind of bike they build is affected by profit motivation of the parent company that went to China to take advantage of cheap labour.
It is about cost versus profit and nothing else.

Almost any bike can last decades and often cheap bikes are very over built. Any rider doing pro mileage will break an aluminum bike first. steel and titanium second and may never break a well built CF frame. The fatigue resistance of a well built CF bike is near infinite. No metallic frame can approach this unless it is so over built that it weighs twice as much.
You understand that some fiber glass springs last 3 times longer than metal ones. Glass last longer than steel?? who would think that?

 

[Microchip]

I don't know about AL but it will be interesting to see what happens with carbon, which has been pushed by the bike industry because it is cheap to manufacture and can be sold at a premium. The no-name frames are steadily eating away at the idea that carbon deserves a huge price markup. What is more, the no-name manufacturers are getting better and quicker at making reasonable facsimiles of name brand products...

Once this is of good quality, where can it be sourced?

 

[Microchip]

I hope that doesn't turn into a loaded question.

I really do want to know.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Aluminum breaks. that some frames last 20 to 30 years probably means they were way overbuilt. CF, when correctly engineered surpasses every metallic material for fatigue resistance

It's the "when correctly engineered" part that gets us every time. All bike models pass CEN testing, yet there are failures. Many of them. All "correctly engineered."

First, consumers are sold on the idea that high-end equipment means they'll go faster.
Now you want them to replace an expensive(!!!) bike frame so they can go just a teeny tiny bit faster than they did on a much heavier bike. That's the way to build lifetime customers!!


And I'm not interested in replacing high-end frames every few thousand KMs. Few on the consumer side are.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I don't know about AL but it will be interesting to see what happens with carbon, which has been pushed by the bike industry because it is cheap to manufacture and can be sold at a premium. The no-name frames are steadily eating away at the idea that carbon deserves a huge price markup. What is more, the no-name manufacturers are getting better and quicker at making reasonable facsimiles of name brand products. For example, right now you can buy a cheapo copy of a time trial frame that looks like it is modeled on a Cervelo P5.

NAHBS gets bigger every year. I think there could be a trend at the high end to go back to small builders. The prices are not unreasonable compared to what Canontrekalized is charging for their stock frames. Also gravel racing and cyclocross is growing rapidly so that will influence future trends.

The bolded is what matters. Cheap is relative. Tooling costs for CF are very, very high relative to doing alloys. Some customers are being burned on CF bikes breaking which is bad for the industry. Hopefully they stick around

Microchip, if you are looking for cheap, then either buy from a retailer selling direct online, or buy from a reseller in Taiwan/Singapore on ebay. That's as cheap as new gets. Buying used is my favorite way as there are plenty of people leaving the sport that had good equipment.

 

[avanti]

Aluminum breaks. that some frames last 20 to 30 years probably means they were way overbuilt.........................

Frames built from 6061-T6 aluminum alloy have good fatigue/crack resistance and the material has good weldability. Cannondale uses 6061 and Cervelo used to use it when they built alum frames.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

I hope that doesn't turn into a loaded question.

I really do want to know.

I won't name names out of respect for our host but there are threads in other cycling forums discussing in great detail sources for the chinese knock-off frames and the posters' experiences with them.


CF still is in its infancy and the material itself is still rather primitive. Its Achilles' heel remains that it is formed from a web of threads with unidirectional strength. Which necessitates multiple layers of CF fabric laid at alternating angles to produce strength along multiple axes. Which amounts to over-engineering and added weight.

In the short term, manufacturing techniques continue to improve, and "economy of scale" continues to reduce production costs. In the long-term, they're looking to develop CF materials with omnidirectional strength to eliminate redundant layering. More strength, less weight. Bucky-balls comes to mind.

Just look at the aviation industry, the ultimate arbiter of what amounts to the optimum combination of strength and weight. There are a number of all-CF monocoque general aviation aeroplanes on the market, and the Boeing 787 contains more than 30,000 kg of the stuff. The key word in the term "payload" is "pay." If you didn't pay, they don't want it on their aeroplane. They're abandoning aluminium en mass as soon as the market will support the change. It's not for nothing that Burt Rutan has built his aircraft and spacecraft expressly from CF since the early 1970s.

And the Alfa Romeo 4C is a sign of things to come. It's the first production automobile with a CF chassis that you don't have to be rich as Croesus to buy. Its chassis weighs 65 kilos, almost 15 less than the previous light-weight winner, the bonded aluminium Lotus Elise. Colin Chapman's motto was "Simplificate, then add lightness." Any time you can out-light-weight Lotus, you're onto something.

 

[Amazinmets73]

What's the ride of aluminum like? I went from riding steel to carbon and couldn't stomach the ride of carbon. Never ridden an alloy frame

 

[Microchip]

The bolded is what matters. Cheap is relative. Tooling costs for CF are very, very high relative to doing alloys. Some customers are being burned on CF bikes breaking which is bad for the industry. Hopefully they stick around

Microchip, if you are looking for cheap, then either buy from a retailer selling direct online, or buy from a reseller in Taiwan/Singapore on ebay. That's as cheap as new gets. Buying used is my favorite way as there are plenty of people leaving the sport that had good equipment.

Buying used is better than taking risks with cheaper products. I’m only looking to see how I can track down the source of the products and get it cheaper than store bought. I won’t buy cheap quality.

 

[avanti]

What's the ride of aluminum like? I went from riding steel to carbon and couldn't stomach the ride of carbon. Never ridden an alloy frame

I've had a Cannondale and currently own a Cervelo Soloist (S1) - very nice rides and not much difference to my Ti Lynskey. I suspect the ride depends on the frame design.

I rented a top of the line Trek carbon bike for a week in Sonoma and thought it would shake my teeth out.

 

[Granville57]

What's the ride of aluminum like? I went from riding steel to carbon and couldn't stomach the ride of carbon. Never ridden an alloy frame

I'm sure I've posted this before but personally, the best bike Cervelo ever made was their S1 aluminum frame. The LeMond aluminum frames were great as well. And thank god that Cannondale still offers aluminum. Hard to find a better value for a complete bike these days than the CAAD10.

IN MY OPINOIN!

I found the S1 to have better "road feel" and more active response than the dead and lifeless carbon cousins—and for less than half the price. I rode every model they offered and thought the aluminum frame smoked the rest. But of course it wasn't as profitable to manufacturer so...

I like to actually feel a bike when it's underneath me. The acceleration and transfer of energy of the S1 was remarkable. I thought the LeMond aluminum frames cornered quite well with just the right amount of springiness to them. To me, most all-carbon frames feel like plastic (although the LeMond offerings in their last year of production were an exception to this).

And some of the previous comments about the strength or durability of carbon over aluminum are completely, and perhaps conveniently, ignoring the fact that in the real world, bikes do more than just go forward in a straight line.

Every so often they end up on the ground or are subject to other stresses. In the real world.
Carbon cracks. Easily.
In the real world.

 

[Master50]

What's the ride of aluminum like? I went from riding steel to carbon and couldn't stomach the ride of carbon. Never ridden an alloy frame

Aluminum frames range from total noodles like Alan and Vitus to super stiff like early Cannondales and Klein's.

Carbon bikes also have a huge range of road feel. I have a C40 that rides more like a Vitus than a Cannondale but it is still stiff enough to be fast without a wobble. Very comfortable and unlike a steel bike. My C50 is much stiffer and more like the Master Light in stiffness with great damping to road buzz. This is a great racing bike but I do miss the ride of my steel Master Olympic. I regret selling that bike. In many ways it was the best road bike I have ever ridden. That said I would still keep the carbon over the steel. It won't rust or fatigue, it is easier to repair. It is lighter and suffers no shortcomings in power transfer or stiffness as well as better road damping and enough compliance to take the shock out of many road imperfections. This is about the one point in a CF bikes ride that I like better than steel. pot holes are worse for arm shock than my CF bikes.

 

[42x16ss]

What's the ride of aluminum like? I went from riding steel to carbon and couldn't stomach the ride of carbon. Never ridden an alloy frame

As said above, aluminium frames range according to the manufacturer and the geometry. The Cannondale CAAD crit monsters were certainly stiff, even compared to modern CF frames. Beautiful on decent roads, harsh on poor ones. All but the higher end Carbon race specific frames lack that direct road feel you get from those frames IMO, although Cannondale's System Six (with carbon front end, Al back end) still had it. If you can find one NOS or good 2nd hand, give it a try.

Cervelo's Soloist/S1 wasn't quite as stiff, more of a road racer with a bit more give but still great road feel as noted above. Cannondale's CAAD 10 is similar, basically an Aluminium EVO, a LOT of bike for the price.

Specialized IMO, build Al frames that feel almost as dead as enduro CF frames, but I've heard that the newer models are a large step up.

It's possible to get a good Carbon frame with similar characteristics to steel, you just have to be prepared to shop around and sadly, you'll probably have to part with some more $$ than you expected.