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Andreas Kloden's Final Bid For Another Coveted Top 10 Tour Finish, 'Official' Thread

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Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
Netserk said:
I just read some of the posts during the 2011 Tour :( What could have been...
It will always be impossible to know what he could have achieved in that slightly lesser standard Tour. If he climbed like he did in 2010 and 2012 then he'd be lucky to sneak a top ten. Of course his form in 2011 was much better, but great GC's in P-N and P-V didn't have any seriously long climbs.

As a fan I would hope that he could have stayed at least close to Tommy V in the mountains though :D
I think his crash in '11 had a lot more effect on '12 then people think since he was not the same in any race. '10 he went in thinking he was riding for Armstrong so who knows if he prepared to actually be up there in GC.
I also wish he didn't get sick in the giro '08 or have astana pull everyone out in '07 because those could have been top 5. Plus on '11 he would have finished top 5 with ease.
 
Re: Re:

SHAD0W93 said:
gregrowlerson said:
Netserk said:
I just read some of the posts during the 2011 Tour :( What could have been...
It will always be impossible to know what he could have achieved in that slightly lesser standard Tour. If he climbed like he did in 2010 and 2012 then he'd be lucky to sneak a top ten. Of course his form in 2011 was much better, but great GC's in P-N and P-V didn't have any seriously long climbs.

As a fan I would hope that he could have stayed at least close to Tommy V in the mountains though :D
I think his crash in '11 had a lot more effect on '12 then people think since he was not the same in any race. '10 he went in thinking he was riding for Armstrong so who knows if he prepared to actually be up there in GC.
I also wish he didn't get sick in the giro '08 or have astana pull everyone out in '07 because those could have been top 5. Plus on '11 he would have finished top 5 with ease.
I disagree that with the possibility of riding for Armstrong, that therefore he wasn't in top potential GC riding shape suggestion. In '04 and '06 he arrived in France with the strict objective to ride for Jan, yet still had the shape to contend for the GC when circumstances changed. In 2010 Andreas simply wasn't quite as good as he was in 2009, his lesser early season results show that. The question is really whether Kloden could have climbed as well in 2011 as in 2009 (yes, he cracked on Columbierre, but was one of the big four on Romme, plus was strong on the 'little' Bernard). If he could have then he would have been top 5 for sure (even with the low amount of ITT) without the crashes, but I just don't know if he could have held on as well in the high mountains at the age of 36 as compared to when 34.

You are right about those crashes effecting him thereafter. It was an amazing effort to comeback and place 11th in 2012. Whilst way off the level of the top GC guys, he battled on admirably.

Yes, the '08 Giro is a key moment of Kloden's career. I really think that he would have podiumed that race if he hadn't gotten sick and/or peaked too early (winning Romandie; nobody seems to ride the Giro well after winning Romandie).

I also wish that he had tried at the Vuelta at least once, but he never seemed to have the motivation or recuperation required to back up after the Tour. He only seemed to want to try it in '07 and '08. In the first instance Astana were not allowed to race after the TDF fiasco, and the following year Andreas could have been up there in the GC, only we'll never know as he lost four minutes when caught up in a crash on an early flat stage. There are so many what if's about Klodi's career...
 
Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
SHAD0W93 said:
gregrowlerson said:
Netserk said:
I just read some of the posts during the 2011 Tour :( What could have been...
It will always be impossible to know what he could have achieved in that slightly lesser standard Tour. If he climbed like he did in 2010 and 2012 then he'd be lucky to sneak a top ten. Of course his form in 2011 was much better, but great GC's in P-N and P-V didn't have any seriously long climbs.

As a fan I would hope that he could have stayed at least close to Tommy V in the mountains though :D
I think his crash in '11 had a lot more effect on '12 then people think since he was not the same in any race. '10 he went in thinking he was riding for Armstrong so who knows if he prepared to actually be up there in GC.
I also wish he didn't get sick in the giro '08 or have astana pull everyone out in '07 because those could have been top 5. Plus on '11 he would have finished top 5 with ease.
I disagree that with the possibility of riding for Armstrong, that therefore he wasn't in top potential GC riding shape suggestion. In '04 and '06 he arrived in France with the strict objective to ride for Jan, yet still had the shape to contend for the GC when circumstances changed. In 2010 Andreas simply wasn't quite as good as he was in 2009, his lesser early season results show that. The question is really whether Kloden could have climbed as well in 2011 as in 2009 (yes, he cracked on Columbierre, but was one of the big four on Romme, plus was strong on the 'little' Bernard). If he could have then he would have been top 5 for sure (even with the low amount of ITT) without the crashes, but I just don't know if he could have held on as well in the high mountains at the age of 36 as compared to when 34.

You are right about those crashes effecting him thereafter. It was an amazing effort to comeback and place 11th in 2012. Whilst way off the level of the top GC guys, he battled on admirably.

Yes, the '08 Giro is a key moment of Kloden's career. I really think that he would have podiumed that race if he hadn't gotten sick and/or peaked too early (winning Romandie; nobody seems to ride the Giro well after winning Romandie).

I also wish that he had tried at the Vuelta at least once, but he never seemed to have the motivation or recuperation required to back up after the Tour. He only seemed to want to try it in '07 and '08. In the first instance Astana were not allowed to race after the TDF fiasco, and the following year Andreas could have been up there in the GC, only we'll never know as he lost four minutes when caught up in a crash on an early flat stage. There are so many what if's about Klodi's career...
Another moment of what could have been. Kloden looked so great early in the '08 Giro (and coming off his Romandie triumph); on the early slopes of the final climb on stage 14 he looked a likely podium finisher. Looks can be deceiving though, and his subsequent cracking over the final few kms was only the beginning of worse to come for Andreas. It turns out that his 'peak' lasted from Romandie through to stage 10 (ITT). I am guessing that the rain on stage 11 was the start of him becoming sick.

Great that this 2008 Giro is all on Youtube (in English) now though!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0lbDThaQ4M
 
Re:

WKA311 said:
God I miss Klodi and his ellegance on a bike. He had so much raw talent as well.
I agree. Best style ever on a bike. There's not much of that to be seen in the current peloton, at least not with Froome getting plenty of camera time.
 
Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
SHAD0W93 said:
Andreas forgiving Armstrong for stage 17 of 04 Tour through tweet to Hincapie.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bld6CxxhKLj/?utm_source=ig_embed
Lance did nothing wrong in winning that sprint.

Though I wish that he didn't!

I think it was from a different topic for people saying Lance is a *** and brought up the 04 tour in general. So Klöden said that to try and cheer Lance up. After Hincapie said Klöden's tweet Lanxe looked like he started to cry with what was said. I have no idea to the validity of the whole podcast. Just that Andrea's said he forgave Armstrong for taking the win.

Same, just like quite a bit with him, Ullrich, Contador, Kreuziger, and Cavendish with getting wins in situations.
 
Jul 28, 2019
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Re:



It will always be impossible to know what he could have achieved in that slightly lesser standard Tour. If he climbed like he did in 2010 and 2012 then he'd be lucky to sneak a top ten. Of course his form in 2011 was much better, but great GC's in P-N and P-V didn't have any seriously long climbs.

As a fan I would hope that he could have stayed at least close to Tommy V in the mountains though :D
He said himself he had just as good legs in 2011 as in 2004, from following each and every of his few public statements throughout the years I would say he is usually rather spot on with his assessments and wouldn't exaggerate his own form, especially then with all his experience at that stage of his career. I believe he would have been fighting for the Tour victory that year, well actually I think he would have won it all.....

He is by far my favorite rider from that time as I was getting bored of Jan Ulrich.
Then he really broke through 2004 in terms of GTs, I'm still rewatching that stage to La Mongie. First time I saw a german rider other than Jan Ulrich staying with the best on a GT mountain finish.
 
Reactions: gregrowlerson
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You can't really compare Kloeden,the most overrated rider ever,with Froome/Wiggins situation,this guy should be happy that is was allowed to ride in company of Ullrich and Vino.

Klöden wasn't much worse than Wiggins overall, I would even say talentwise he was better. Peak Wiggins wouldn't win a tour against a peak Klöden.
 
Reactions: SHAD0W93
He said himself he had just as good legs in 2011 as in 2004, from following each and every of his few public statements throughout the years I would say he is usually rather spot on with his assessments and wouldn't exaggerate his own form, especially then with all his experience at that stage of his career. I believe he would have been fighting for the Tour victory that year, well actually I think he would have won it all.....

He is by far my favorite rider from that time as I was getting bored of Jan Ulrich.
Then he really broke through 2004 in terms of GTs, I'm still rewatching that stage to La Mongie. First time I saw a german rider other than Jan Ulrich staying with the best on a GT mountain finish.

At age 36 I find it hard to believe that he would have climbed well enough to challenge Cadel in 2011. He was in good form in 2009, and that wasn't quite good enough in the mountains, so in 2011 I doubt it. Perhaps a podium. He missed his last great chance imo in 2007, and in 2008 (at the Giro and Vuelta).
 
Reactions: SHAD0W93
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At age 36 I find it hard to believe that he would have climbed well enough to challenge Cadel in 2011. He was in good form in 2009, and that wasn't quite good enough in the mountains, so in 2011 I doubt it. Perhaps a podium. He missed his last great chance imo in 2007, and in 2008 (at the Giro and Vuelta).
Yea might very well be the case. My assumption is pretty much just based on his claim he felt the legs of 2004 in 2011 (something that I found very surprising back then as well give his age...) That would mean he was in better shape than in 2006, 2007 and 2009.
And I believe Klöden from 2004 could beat any of those who competed for the Tour win in 2011.
2007, where he was in top shape he crashed really hard early in the race, I'm pretty sure that took a toll on him that Tour. Maybe he could have won that year with a bit of luck and not crashing as Leipheimer and Evans were just like half a minute behind Contador and I don't think he was any worse than those two back then.

What I always found a bit surprising with Klöden was that he wasn't even better in the mountains. I mean he had the weight of a pure climbing specialist and was still very good at ITTs. Then he would become 2nd or 3rd in an ITT and I thought damn how good will be once they hit the mountains where his weight will become an bigger advantage but then he would end up being dropped by some heavier GT specialist who he beat in the TT before. Kind of an example is when he was closer to Jan Ullrich (same height, 10kg heavier) in the flat TT than in the mountain TT.
 
Reactions: gregrowlerson
Yea might very well be the case. My assumption is pretty much just based on his claim he felt the legs of 2004 in 2011 (something that I found very surprising back then as well give his age...) That would mean he was in better shape than in 2006, 2007 and 2009.
And I believe Klöden from 2004 could beat any of those who competed for the Tour win in 2011.
2007, where he was in top shape he crashed really hard early in the race, I'm pretty sure that took a toll on him that Tour. Maybe he could have won that year with a bit of luck and not crashing as Leipheimer and Evans were just like half a minute behind Contador and I don't think he was any worse than those two back then.

What I always found a bit surprising with Klöden was that he wasn't even better in the mountains. I mean he had the weight of a pure climbing specialist and was still very good at ITTs. Then he would become 2nd or 3rd in an ITT and I thought damn how good will be once they hit the mountains where his weight will become an bigger advantage but then he would end up being dropped by some heavier GT specialist who he beat in the TT before. Kind of an example is when he was closer to Jan Ullrich (same height, 10kg heavier) in the flat TT than in the mountain TT.
Yes, the prologue in 2007 showed Andreas' shape, as did his effort to drag Vino (and half the contenders) up Tignes, even after he had fractured his cocksix. And he still managed to finish with Cadel on PDB. So yeah, without his injury (after also crashing in the ITT) he could have been a minute closer to Contador and Rassmussen that day, and possibly taken enough time from them in the ITT's. All hypothetical though of course.

Kloden was one of the best climbers at his best, but we only saw this sparingly, such as the first two stages in the alps in 2006. I would have liked to have seen him give the Vuelta more of a go, though either due to lack of motivation or inability to back up after the Tour, he didn't. He said he wanted to in 2007 after riding two-thirds of the Tour, but Astana obviously were not invited. But he didn't ride it in 2009, 2010, 2012 from memory. And maybe he could have ridden it in 2005 if his Tour injuries weren't serious? But in reality I think that like many GC riders back then, Kloden considered the end of July to be the end of the season.
 
What I always found a bit surprising with Klöden was that he wasn't even better in the mountains. I mean he had the weight of a pure climbing specialist and was still very good at ITTs. Then he would become 2nd or 3rd in an ITT and I thought damn how good will be once they hit the mountains where his weight will become an bigger advantage but then he would end up being dropped by some heavier GT specialist who he beat in the TT before. Kind of an example is when he was closer to Jan Ullrich (same height, 10kg heavier) in the flat TT than in the mountain TT.
Having the best TT position ever known to man might have had something to do with it.

His big chance to win the Tour was 2006.
 
It is interesting that he didn't even win a GT stage. I remember he was twice very close - rider who later lost his achievements overtook him in the closing metres in 2004 and then he lost to Weening in photo-finish a year later.
 
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Having the best TT position ever known to man might have had something to do with it.
Good point!


It is interesting that he didn't even win a GT stage. I remember he was twice very close - rider who later lost his achievements overtook him in the closing metres in 2004 and then he lost to Weening in photo-finish a year later.

I'd say the way of becoming 2nd on those two stages are in a way very similar to his two 2nd places in the Tour.
 

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