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Are Kenyan runners doped?

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Apr 29, 2009
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keen_but_slow said:
Jon Brown always reckoned that he was the best clean European marathoner, but that the east africans were on a different planet. They run differently. If you're not sure, stand on Central Park South as the first 20 go by and look at the differences in gait between the winners and losers. Lots of theories why - genetics, barefoot whilst young etc. Haile still crooks his left arm when he's tired because he learned to run by doing 10km to school and back every day and used to carry his books under his left arm.

There's a lot of reasons why they are superior distance runners, the cancer that afflicts cycling and T+F sprinting isn't one of them.

I live near them in Teddington and see them when I'm running in Bushey Park. Great to watch.

I was once cycling in Richmond Park and caught what I thought was a mountain-biker (no up/down movement at all) but when I got closer I realised it was an African runner. He had a t-shirt on that said "It's not the winning, it's the taking apart". Fantastic.

I live and run in the very same parks, and yes top class runners are a joy to behold. Effortless gait. Some days I feel fast and smooth. I'm really not.
 
I'm back to running for 2 years now, after a 10 years hiatus.

The lion share of those 2 years, cluelessly injured all the time.

I've been reading, and now understand the dynamics of running much better, I think.

Technique, and early youth, are important factors to become a great runner later in lie. Bikila won the 1960 Olympic marathon, in a world record, barefoot. He was not doped out of his ears, he just ran technically better, at the peak of his health, after a healthy, natural life in Africa.

My running has improved vastly, over the past few weeks. I can tell from my lap times, I train on the track primarily, just twice a week. Technique is everything. On the shoes that Nike, Asics, etc, are trying to sell us, we are without a chance to run fast, or to even remain heathly. Fat running shoes increase chance of injuries. Barefoot runners are rarely injured. One might argue that this could allow them to train harder, and get away with it.

Like tall muscular colored men, like Jamaicans and Afro-Americans, are overall more talented to sprint, thinner Africans are often better at long distance running. And, it's in their culture. The hunting, the lack of cars for transportation.

Are Norwegian cross-country skiers all doped, because they're consistent? Or might it help that XC racing is live on prime time television, and the XC stars, national stars more than football players, cyclists, and runners?
For a time, France and Italy were the main countries to care about road cycling, enough to sponsor races, and keep races. So, most riders came from there. And, many kids tried cycling as a profession.

Track running is at a very high level now. we need to suspect old records that still stand, or took a Usain Bolt to be broken. Watch Usain Bolt and Michael Johnson. Tell me the latter would be just 0.12s behind over 200m, with his style of running and physique, compared to former?

Records set by Russian and Chinese women, reason to doubt those.

Interestingly, not one woman can come within 2minutes of Paula Radcliffe's marathon world record. Not even Kenyan, apparently doped to da max. Ain't that odd, a British lady against a nation of doped marathon specialists?
Talent, training, determination, those make you fast. Doping is for those who miss one of those.
 
Oct 16, 2009
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Lasse Virén ran a 27:38.35 10,000 m world record in Munich 1972, blood doped (it was legal back then). Bekele's current world record is 26:17.53. I have a hard time believing he did that clean.

He is stunning to watch, though.
 
May 18, 2009
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buckwheat said:
A hyperbolic tent cuts off O2 to one's brain and causes that individuals brain cells to die. This results in wild exaggeration and senseless argument.

That is funny. I'm surprised you got the joke.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Well, it's been proven in scientific studies that elite kenyans are more efficient runners than elite caucasians. They consume less oxygen at the same level of effort because of their superior running economy.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Cloxxki said:
Are Norwegian cross-country skiers all doped, because they're consistent? Or might it help that XC racing is live on prime time television, and the XC stars, national stars more than football players, cyclists, and runners?

In the 90's, the highest Hg concentration recorded in a norwegian was about 30 points lower than the peak values recorded in skiers from several other countries and the norwegian average did not increase after the introduction of EPO, unlike the international average.
 
Jul 29, 2009
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I just thought I'd mention Seb Coe as no one else had. Beautiful runner and his 800m record lasted 16 years.

Anyone going to suggest he doped?
 
Oct 16, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
In the 90's, the highest Hg concentration recorded in a norwegian was about 30 points lower than the peak values recorded in skiers from several other countries and the norwegian average did not increase after the introduction of EPO, unlike the international average.
Didn't Dæhlie record a VO2 max of 96ml/kg/min? I've been wondering whether he was an incredible physical talent (which doesn't quite fit with his oft-mentioned lack of success as a junior racer), or whether he actually tested his VO2 max while on the Juice. And also how it would compare to other top athletes' VO2 max results, both the dirty and the presumably clean. I know LeMond measured 92 ml/kg/min, and Indurain 88, though I'm not sure I trust Indurain's result. Armstrong's was in the low 80s, but I don't know whether that was EPO-induced or not.

So please post any interesting VO2 max results, if you have 'em.
 

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Apr 14, 2010
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SirLes said:
I just thought I'd mention Seb Coe as no one else had. Beautiful runner and his 800m record lasted 16 years.

Anyone going to suggest he doped?

Why not. Where convincing ourselves everyone else has... Jeez, I bet everyone on these boards is on the juice...
 

Green Tea

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Apr 14, 2010
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goggalor said:
Apparently LeMond's 92 ml/kg/min result was from 1989*, which is right before EPO hit the pro cycling scene for real, no?

*http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html


Greg LeMond said:
Of course, in the '90s drugs came on the scene, so the wattages have gone out. There are some things that are just not explainable, people with VO2 Maxs in the low 80s producing 500 watts. A physiologist friend of my said that for a person to do that, 500 watts, he has to have to have nearly 100 milliliters of Oxygen. There are a lot of questions there for me.

Greg, I have managed to put out 1,128 watts on a 2% gradient outside my house. My VO2 is in the very low 70's???... It was achieved straight after pulling 208Kg's in the deadlift.

Chris Hoy can put out 2300 watts of power & 800 watt intervals whilst training for the kilo record attempt.

Whats your point?.

Are we both doing EPO :rolleyes:, LMAO.

The jealously & hate LeMond must have for Armstrong. Did LeMond ever train as hard as Armstrong?. Did LeMond ever lift weights? or do any weight training in his prime?.

Did LeMond ever do any training to improve max applicable power?. Or is he still rabbling on like hes still living in the 80's?.
 
Green Tea said:
Greg, I have managed to put out 1,128 watts on a 2% gradient outside my house. My VO2 is in the very low 70's???... It was achieved straight after pulling 208Kg's in the deadlift.

Chris Hoy can put out 2300 watts of power & 800 watt intervals whilst training for the kilo record attempt.

Whats your point?.

Are we both doing EPO :rolleyes:, LMAO.

The jealously & hate LeMond must have for Armstrong. Did LeMond ever train as hard as Armstrong?. Did LeMond ever lift weights? or do any weight training in his prime?.

Did LeMond ever do any training to improve max applicable power?. Or is he still rabbling on like hes still living in the 80's?.

No one ever trained as hard as Armstrong, none more-so than those lazy Europeans.
 
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Green Tea said:
Greg, I have managed to put out 1,128 watts on a 2% gradient outside my house. My VO2 is in the very low 70's???... It was achieved straight after pulling 208Kg's in the deadlift.

Sure you did. And once, I went outside and jumped over my house without stretching.
 
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goggalor said:
There was no Twitter in the 80s.

Surely The Uniballer's fingers are in far better shape than Lemond's ever were.

The sad thing is that the 3 people in the world stupid enough to believe that Armstrong rode clean keep coming back to a forum near you under different names. Their clubhouse must be really lonely now though. I kind of feel sorry for them. Nobody to fill out that last spot for a doubles match, and everybody knows that threesomes never really work out because there is always two that are really attracted to each other, and the third is just allowed to participate for the spice, but there is no love there. No love. But hey, they are better than having to deal with Flyer/Dr House ANY day.
 
Jul 15, 2009
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Green Tea said:
Greg, I have managed to put out 1,128 watts on a 2% gradient outside my house.

Chris Hoy can put out 2300 watts of power & 800 watt intervals whilst training for the kilo record attempt.

You're an awful idiot. Those are measures of sprinting power. Lemond is referring to 500 watts over a sustained period of time.
 
May 18, 2009
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OK, I would like to get back to this interesting topic. Let's try not to let the vitriol from the Lemond thread spill over into this....

I think we can all agree that the Kenyan runners are better. There has been a post about how efficient they run, and spirited debate on whether they need EPO.

What I would like to know is why this is.

I still think my hypothesis of them running from wild animals at altitude throughout life is training that cannot be equalled by competitors from other countries.

It would be interesting if there were cheetahs, etc. cruising around Denver, for example, terrorizing the locals. Then we would have a reference point to test this theory of mine.

Does anybody have any basic reasons on why they are the best? Discussing results is getting us nowhere....we might as well point out the sun rises in the east over and over again.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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goggalor said:
Didn't Dæhlie record a VO2 max of 96ml/kg/min? I've been wondering whether he was an incredible physical talent (which doesn't quite fit with his oft-mentioned lack of success as a junior racer), or whether he actually tested his VO2 max while on the Juice. And also how it would compare to other top athletes' VO2 max results, both the dirty and the presumably clean. I know LeMond measured 92 ml/kg/min, and Indurain 88, though I'm not sure I trust Indurain's result. Armstrong's was in the low 80s, but I don't know whether that was EPO-induced or not.

So please post any interesting VO2 max results, if you have 'em.

Bjørn Dæhlie may have doped, but if he did, he obviously didn't boost his values nearly as much as some of his rivals. The peak value for a norwegian skier were in the 160's every year except in -94 when it was 172 g/l. I doubt an EPO-user in the 90's would be so moderate, but who knows.

Isn't the sole purpose of EPO-doping to raise your VO2 max by increasing your O2 carriers?
 
Mar 4, 2010
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There's a big thread about kenyans and doping at letsrun.com

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3254840&page=0

One of the italians who coach kenyans - Renato Canova - showed up (yes, he actually posts there) and claimed EPO doesn't work.

For top athletes, that have the ability to increase of 20-25% the GLOBAL VOLUME OF BLOOD in their body, EPO or something equivalent doesn't work (I had in 10000m the following athletes, completely clean : Kemboi 26'30", Ahmed Hassan 26'38", Mosop 26'49", Mark Bett and Kohn Korir 26'52", Florence Kiplagat 30'11" ; in steeple Shaheen 7'53" WR, Boit Kipketer (with me) 8'00"6, Nyamu 8'07", Docus Inzikuru 9'15" WCh, Ruth Bosibori 9'13" etc) and NOBODY used anything. So, why I have to suppose that other top runners have to use doping ?

I also like this quote.

In Kenya there are more controls that in other Countries. Every week there are about 15 controls from IAAF/Wada

From another thread.

In Kenya there are NO LESS THAN 20 ANTIDOPING TESTS OUT OF COMPETITION EVERY WEEK

I guess WADA must be testing the kenyans like crazy, because the IAAF sure doesn't.

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Ant...ppostedfile_TestedAthletes2008-Final_8894.xls

No blood tests are performed in Africa according to anti-doping expert Bengt Saltin.