Armstrong comments on Contador feud; "It was deliberate" - link in text.

[shawnrohrbach]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...dor-is-real-deal-armstrong-20091202-k6dq.html

LANCE ARMSTRONG has revealed that he deliberately created conflicts during his seven-year reign as the Tour de France champion to sharpen his competitive edge, but the 38-year-old Texan is adamant that his fallout with this year's Spanish winner Alberto Contador is for real.

In an exclusive interview.... "text parsed"

Armstrong, who this year raced after a 3½-year retirement, will relish the scenario. His best wins from 1999 to 2005 came when engaged in bitter conflict. And as he tells Sport&Style: ''We would create those things. But I am a different person than I was 10 years ago.''

But when pressed on his rift with Contador, he says: ''We are not making it up. It's there.''

Contador later told media in Madrid that his relationship with Armstrong was ''non-existent'' and, ''even if he is a great champion, I have never had admiration for him and I never will''.

Armstrong's terse response on his Twitter read: ''Seeing these comments from AC. If I were him I would drop this drivel and start thanking his team. w/o [without] them, he doesn't win.''

Armstrong's view has not changed since: ''It's no secret we are not friends,'' he says. ''It was just typical. Young guy, tons of success, never faltered. I called his PR guy and said, 'I don't want to tell you what to do, but I don't think that's such a good thing to say. That's stupid.'''

Although, Armstrong does concede that their rivalry will be terrific for cycling, and especially the Tour.

''It will make for an epic build-up, an epic Tour. Those key stages will be epic,'' he says.

And while he might not like Contador, he admires his physical and mental prowess, saying: ''He is strong physically, but he is possibly even stronger mentally. He ain't easy to disintegrate.'' For Armstrong, who overcame testicular cancer in 1996 before winning his record seven Tours, fighting against the odds has been a part of life since he was a child.

''I got into a few fights. There was only one time when I really got my *** kicked,'' he recalls of his mid-teen years. ''I had gotten into a fight with another guy. I kicked his *** pretty good, or he gave up. [His friends] then came out and f---ing kicked the s--- out of me. But that wasn't one of those events that shaped [me]. No, my epiphany was being sick. That was like: 'Winning, losing, winning, dying … listen.'''

This is not about a spat between two professional cyclists. This is an extreme case of narcicism and the need to control. When you see a pattern of this behavior (with Lemond and others) and now Contador, the only conclusion you can draw is this man needs help.

 

[Publicus]

Probably.

Lance's improvement will come from getting more bike time (as will Ivan Basso). Most expect guys who miss 2-3 years to need a full season before their bodies adjust to major racing again.

That improvement will be countered by whatever decrease in performance he gets from aging. It could be a net positive, or a net negative. I'm not sure anyone knows how much either factor will help or hurt. Going into the Tour, Lance had ridden The tour down under, the tour of california, milano sanremo, a couple of days of the tour of castilla and leon, the tour of the Gila, the Giro and the nevada city classic. About 40 days of racing after a 3 year break. And he did look stronger toward the end of the tour (5th on Ventoux) then he did early on.

Andy should improve a decent amount due to age and experience... Contador may as well (though it's possible he's already at his peak).

I honestly don't expect Lance to compete with either one of them unless something happens (a crash, not eating and bonking on a big climb, a windy stage where Lance can get a couple of minutes). But the fact is he outclimbed every contender BUT Andy and Alberto on Ventoux last year... which was thought to be the big climb of the Tour.

I don't think you can use Ventoux as the metric because at that point, the race was essentially down to a race for 3rd place between Wiggins, FS and Armstrong. When the race was in the balance (let's say Arcalis, Verbier, Col de Rom and Colombiere) he wasn't out climbing most of the contenders. Sastre and Evans ultimately faltered for a variety of reasons, but they also left him on Verbier. Armstrong wasn't able to outclimb Wiggins or VandeVelde. He just rode their wheels until they popped (they were trying to close the gap back to AC if you recall). On Verbier, Wiggins rode away from Lance with ease. I think the difference was that all the other contenders were going after AC and AS to make up time, and shot their wad in the process. Lance wasn't/didn't have to so he was relatively fresh on Ventoux (compare Kloden who was sheparding him up the mountains throughout the TdF). Next year he will and I think that's what is not being considered in folks analysis about how he will fare next year.

Btw, has Armstrong ever thanked AC for the work he did on Ventoux to secure his podium position? After all that twittering about AC should be thanking his teammates publicly, one would assume that he had.

 

[Walshworld]

Armstrong gave up on "destabilizing" Contador.

Lance made a shocking discovery in the '09 Tour. Contador is as mentally tough as he is. But the guy is a genius at finding and even creating weak points in rivals and shifting his attack accordingly. He couldn't "destabilize" Alberto so he and Johan decided to "destabilize" Alberto's team. Mission accomplished on that one.
Twisted Spoke http://walshworld.wordpress.com/

 

[Anonymous]

Who do you mean by "he" - AC or LA?

LA can beat AC if AC is "completely doped to the gills" and caught - is that what you mean?

No, he means that your has been hero needs to be on a freakish amount of dope to even think of matching Contador and Schlecklet. And he will dope like a fiend, why mess with a well tested formula?

 

[BYOP88]

http://walshworld.wordpress.com/ That is the tactical plan for Radio Shack for the Tour de France. Isolate Contador in the mountains and attack. The genius of Armstrong is that he’s already isolated him about eight months early. Plan Destabilization done.

Yeah and how often do plans work out the way they're meant too. Also if Retirement Shack are setting a "furious pace" on a climb aren't they more likely to put Big Mouth into the red rather than Contador or Baby Schleck?

Also why do some people think that Armstrong will improve next year, yes I know he's a medical marvel and has a heart the size of a rocket ship and a V02 level that could power the continent of Asia for at least a decade etc etc. I mean if a 39/40 year old imporves by X% aren't riders who are 10-15 years younger going to improve just as much or more?

 

[kurtinsc]

I don't think you can use Ventoux as the metric because at that point, the race was essentially down to a race for 3rd place between Wiggins, FS and Armstrong. When the race was in the balance (let's say Arcalis, Verbier, Col de Rom and Colombiere) he wasn't out climbing most of the contenders. Sastre and Evans ultimately faltered for a variety of reasons, but they also left him on Verbier. Armstrong wasn't able to outclimb Wiggins or VandeVelde. He just rode their wheels until they popped (they were trying to close the gap back to AC if you recall). On Verbier, Wiggins rode away from Lance with ease. I think the difference was that all the other contenders were going after AC and AS to make up time, and shot their wad in the process. Lance wasn't/didn't have to so he was relatively fresh on Ventoux (compare Kloden who was sheparding him up the mountains throughout the TdF). Next year he will and I think that's what is not being considered in folks analysis about how he will fare next year.

Btw, has Armstrong ever thanked AC for the work he did on Ventoux to secure his podium position? After all that twittering about AC should be thanking his teammates publicly, one would assume that he had.

Lance definitely struggled on Verbier. But then he crushed Wiggins on Grand Bornand, then handled him fairly easily (as well as Frank Schleck) on Ventoux.

There were only 3 mountain stages of note when it came to affecting the final results... Ventoux, Grand Bornand and Verbier. I suppose you could throw Arcalis in there too but that's a bit questionable. If you leave out A. Schleck and Contador (who Lance is not better then), he lost a total of 32 seconds to Nibali on Verbier (less to everyone else). He lost 2'18" to F. Schleck (and the leaders) on Grand Bornand... but beat everyone else (aside from Nibali who had the s.t.). Then he beat all of them on Ventoux.

Maybe it's his climbing. Maybe it's his ability to recover. Maybe it's because he had strong teammates sacrificing themselves for him. But I don't see why any of that changes next season.

And I'm confused what AC did for Lance on Ventoux. AC went with Andy whenever he attacked... and Lance followed Frank any time he attacked. AC never worked to pull back Frank for Lance, and Lance never worked to pull back Andy for AC.

Lance should thank Kloden. (I don't know if he ever did). But not Contador.

 

[richwagmn]

But the fact is he outclimbed every contender BUT Andy and Alberto on Ventoux last year... which was thought to be the big climb of the Tour.

Yet is wasn't. Verbier was. Ventoux was more like a parade for the contenders. AS was trying to help Frank and AC was just watching AS. All LA did was mark Frank. What if AS had really gone balls out and forgot about Frank?

I don't think you can tell a great deal about LA's climbing ability from Ventoux. Too many other competitors were already out of the tour by then. Certainly he's in the league of the super domestiques. But he's not in the same league as AC and AS.

 

[kurtinsc]

Yeah and how often do plans work out the way they're meant too. Also if Retirement Shack are setting a "furious pace" on a climb aren't they more likely to put Big Mouth into the red rather than Contador or Baby Schleck?

Also why do some people think that Armstrong will improve next year, yes I know he's a medical marvel and has a heart the size of a rocket ship and a V02 level that could power the continent of Asia for at least a decade etc etc. I mean if a 39/40 year old imporves by X% aren't riders who are 10-15 years younger going to improve just as much or more?

The plan is okay... if you aren't working for one leader.

I think RS could weaken Contador if Levi attacked... then Kloden.... then Lance... then repeat.

The problem is they can't do that. Why? Because they are all working for Lance... and Levi gaining a couple of minutes on Contador wouldn't help Lance win the Tour. It would help RS win the tour... but that's not what they're working for.

In all honesty... they'd do better to try to gain time on the flats. I know it's a bit odd for talking about winning a tour that way, but if they get lucky and there are some windy stages, that's where they need to spend energy to make something happen and pick up some "cheap" minutes in the flat stages.

If Lance can get 3-4 "cheap" minutes... he might have a shot of hanging on with AC and using his teammates to minimize the gaps AC gets in the mountains. But you have to get some minutes... and AC is a better TT rider (the normal way those minutes are gained).

Lance and Radio Shack are going to have to get creative if they want to win. I don't see it happening... 3rd seems to be the limit for Lance barring a crash or other odd event for A. Schleck or Contador.

As for why he'll improve... the only reason would be race days. There seems to be a thought that after missing 2-3 years, a rider needs a complete season to fully get back into race shape. I have no idea how true that is, but most saying Lance will improve also think Basso will.

 

[kurtinsc]

Yet is wasn't. Verbier was. Ventoux was more like a parade for the contenders. AS was trying to help Frank and AC was just watching AS. All LA did was mark Frank. What if AS had really gone balls out and forgot about Frank?

I don't think you can tell a great deal about LA's climbing ability from Ventoux. Too many other competitors were already out of the tour by then. Certainly he's in the league of the super domestiques. But he's not in the same league as AC and AS.

Then Andy might have won the stage... but Lance still would have beaten Frank. Frank COULDN'T shake Lance... for whatever reason. It wasn't like he didn't try, and it wasn't like he didn't know he had to in order to get a podium spot. But even with Andy working for Frank, Frank couldn't get away.

I may be mistaken, but it looked to me like Lance was having a much easier time of it then Frank was. he didn't attack or try to pull away... because all he had to do was finish with or ahead of Frank and Wiggins to get 3rd... and 2nd was out of reach.


I'm not trying to say Lance can compete with A. Schleck or Contador in the mountains. I'm saying he's in contention for 3rd because nobody really proved to be at a different level then him in the mountains OTHER then AC and AS.

 

[HL2037]

Maybe it's his climbing. Maybe it's his ability to recover. Maybe it's because he had strong teammates sacrificing themselves for him. But I don't see why any of that changes next season.

You see, most riders peak in their late twenties. That means that Contador, Schleck, Gesink, Nibali, Kreuziger, Wiggins etc. are moving closer to their peak, whereas LA is moving away from his peak. He is never again going to reach the form he was in before his first retirement. Time is working against him.

Edit: Forgot about Edvard Boasson-Hagen and Tony Martin

About Fränk Schleck: He was struggeling with a knee problem during the tour and was about to pull out several times according to Kim Andersen. He has now had surgery, and hopefully that will reflect on his performance next year.

 

[thehog]

One should not forget the massive headwind on Ventoux that day. It was much much easier to follow than lead. Even with that Andy was still gaining ground at will.

 

[kurtinsc]

It will be interesting to see Frank with a good knee then. Perhaps he can join Andy and Alberto as true contenders as opposed to just fighting with the rest of the GC guys for 3rd.

 

[BYOP88]

As for why he'll improve... the only reason would be race days. There seems to be a thought that after missing 2-3 years, a rider needs a complete season to fully get back into race shape.

Maybe that theory could be semi-right for a younger rider, but for an older guy I doubt it, for example Simoni is a few weeks older than Armstrong and Simoni wasn't able to compete with the younger guys at the Giro, so why would/will Armstrong be able to compete in what's meant to be "the hardest race in the world....ever!!!"?

 

[kurtinsc]

One should not forget the massive headwind on Ventoux that day. It was much much easier to follow than lead. Even with that Andy was still gaining ground at will.

Yes, Andy is the only one who can climb at the same level as Contador in the mountains right now (and maybe Frank if his bad days were more a result of injury then ability)

 

[Publicus]

Lance definitely struggled on Verbier. But then he crushed Wiggins on Grand Bornand, then handled him fairly easily (as well as Frank Schleck) on Ventoux.

There were only 3 mountain stages of note when it came to affecting the final results... Ventoux, Grand Bornand and Verbier. I suppose you could throw Arcalis in there too but that's a bit questionable. If you leave out A. Schleck and Contador (who Lance is not better then), he lost a total of 32 seconds to Nibali on Verbier (less to everyone else). He lost 2'18" to F. Schleck (and the leaders) on Grand Bornand... but beat everyone else (aside from Nibali who had the s.t.). Then he beat all of them on Ventoux.

Maybe it's his climbing. Maybe it's his ability to recover. Maybe it's because he had strong teammates sacrificing themselves for him. But I don't see why any of that changes next season.

And I'm confused what AC did for Lance on Ventoux. AC went with Andy whenever he attacked... and Lance followed Frank any time he attacked. AC never worked to pull back Frank for Lance, and Lance never worked to pull back Andy for AC.

Lance should thank Kloden. (I don't know if he ever did). But not Contador.

Lance didn't crush anybody on any mountain at any time in the 2009 TdF. Wiggins imploded from his efforts to close the gap to the Schleck-Contador group. Lance was just along for the ride. Once Wiggins imploded, Lance rode away. That's not crushing anyone. What AC did on Verbier, that's called crushing.

As for Ventoux, I guess my view is that Andy was doing whatever he could to help Frank get separation from Lance. After Kloden imploded, the only person able to cover the Schleck accelerations was AC. Lance would simply ride back to the duo/trio after Andy had to shut it down. So no, AC didn't put in yeomans work like Kloden and risk his overall victory, but he certainly was putting in work that was beneficial to Lance.

As for where Lance finishes next year. I don't know. He didn't have to expend energy competing for first place (i.e., actually race AC or AS for that matter), so while this year's results may be helpful, I don't think they are dispositive. Who knows what his form will be like after a week in the Pyrnees trying to match skills with Andy and Alberto (and Basso and Nibali and Gesink and Valverde). He never really had to do that this year except on Verbier. And we saw how that turned out. The subsequent stages were all about AC defending and the other contenders (save Lance) trying to chip into his lead. So yes Lance was able to make it back on Stage 16, but recall he wasn't able to go with the initial accelerations and it was only after Andy and others shut down the attack that he got back on. All that being said, I have him pegged for a Top 10 finish, but I think Basso, Gesink, Nibali, Sastre and Schleck will have more to say about the 3rd podium spot (with the obvious caveat about crashes, illness, etc. for AC, AS).

 

[kurtinsc]

Maybe that theory could be semi-right for a younger rider, but for an older guy I doubt it, for example Simoni is a few weeks older than Armstrong and Simoni wasn't able to compete with the younger guys at the Giro, so why would/will Armstrong be able to compete in what's meant to be "the hardest race in the world....ever!!!"?

I don't know that the simoni comparison is meaningful. Different people start to decline at different ages. Simoni's been dropping off for several years now. 4th in 2007, 10th in 2008, 24th in 2009.

Lance may begin that decline this year... or he may not. Just because Simoni's sharp decline began a couple of years ago doesn't mean Lance's will begin now. It might... or it might be 3 years down the road.

As you stated their ages are similar... and Lance finished 12 places higher then Simoni in a Giro where Simoni was peaking and Lance was riding into shape. It's clear that either he started from such a high spot that he's got more room to decline before completely falling off the map... or he started his decline later (or he's on better drugs then the rest of them).

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I'd say right now, I'd put the Top 10 as:

1. Contador
2. Andy S.
3. Gesink
4. Frank S.
5. Evans
6. Nibali
7. Sastre
8. Armstrong
9. Basso
10. Kreuzinger or Wiggins

Assuming Piti does not race this year. Sanchez may squeeze in the top 10 though.

 

[kurtinsc]

Lance didn't crush anybody on any mountain at any time in the 2009 TdF. Wiggins imploded from his efforts to close the gap to the Schleck-Contador group. Lance was just along for the ride. Once Wiggins imploded, Lance rode away. That's not crushing anyone. What AC did on Verbier, that's called crushing.

As for Ventoux, I guess my view is that Andy was doing whatever he could to help Frank get separation from Lance. After Kloden imploded, the only person able to cover the Schleck accelerations was AC. Lance would simply ride back to the duo/trio after Andy had to shut it down. So no, AC didn't put in yeomans work like Kloden and risk his overall victory, but he certainly was putting in work that was beneficial to Lance.

As for where Lance finishes next year. I don't know. He didn't have to expend energy competing for first place (i.e., actually race AC or AS for that matter), so while this year's results may be helpful, I don't think they are dispositive. Who knows what his form will be like after a week in the Pyrnees trying to match skills with Andy and Alberto (and Basso and Nibali and Gesink and Valverde). He never really had to do that this year except on Verbier. And we saw how that turned out. The subsequent stages were all about AC defending and the other contenders (save Lance) trying to chip into his lead. So yes Lance was able to make it back on Stage 16, but recall he wasn't able to go with the initial accelerations and it was only after Andy and others shut down the attack that he got back on. All that being said, I have him pegged for a Top 10 finish, but I think Basso, Gesink, Nibali, Sastre and Schleck will have more to say about the 3rd podium spot (with the obvious caveat about crashes, illness, etc. for AC, AS).

Basso and Gesink are interesting. It's so hard comparing one GT to another from year to year... I really wish Gesink had not crashed out of the Tour. I tend do disagree on Sastre... I just didn't see him climbing better then Armstrong last year, and Armstrong will gain enough time in the TT's that he's going to have to be somewhat better. Frank DID climb better then Armstrong until Ventoux... so even with his TT issues I can see him finishing ahead. The question for him will be how much he has to work for Andy and if that will allow Lance to get back in front.

And I don't see Lance chasing Contador much this next Tour either. Once that first climb is done, I expect he'll know he's riding for 3rd and adjust to that role. Stage 8 (Morzine-Avoriaz) looks to be much more of a selection then the early climbs this past year. The last 14km climb seems (on paper) to be significant.

I can see Lance finishing between 3rd and 8th. To me that seems like a reasonable high or low if no major illness/crashes occur. I just think that he's definitely in the running for the #3 spot... I didn't see anyone really showing that they had enough separation from him to eliminate him from the discussion.

 

[HL2037]

Remember Verbier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twNuEVzvJ28&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrzHciI6L14&feature=related

 

[bicing]

Remember Verbier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twNuEVzvJ28&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrzHciI6L14&feature=related

how could i forget, i was there

 

[HL2037]

Do tell us about it!

 

[BYOP88]

Remember Verbier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twNuEVzvJ28&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrzHciI6L14&feature=related

Aww it's good to see on the 1st video around the 1'42 mark that Kloden rejoins the main group and goes to the front to set the pace, it reminds me of the good old USPS days when Lance attacked the rest of the USPS guys all got round the "2nd leader" on the team to help limit/close the gap on the other GC contenders up the road!!!

 

[HL2037]

Teamplayers through and through.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I'd say right now, I'd put the Top 10 as:

1. Contador
2. Andy S.
3. Gesink
4. Frank S.
5. Evans
6. Nibali
7. Sastre
8. Armstrong
9. Basso
10. Kreuzinger or Wiggins

Assuming Piti does not race this year. Sanchez may squeeze in the top 10 though.

Gesink 3rd and Frank SChleck 4th I don't think that will happen.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Lance definitely struggled on Verbier. But then he crushed Wiggins on Grand Bornand, then handled him fairly easily (as well as Frank Schleck) on Ventoux.

There were only 3 mountain stages of note when it came to affecting the final results... Ventoux, Grand Bornand and Verbier. I suppose you could throw Arcalis in there too but that's a bit questionable. If you leave out A. Schleck and Contador (who Lance is not better then), he lost a total of 32 seconds to Nibali on Verbier (less to everyone else). He lost 2'18" to F. Schleck (and the leaders) on Grand Bornand... but beat everyone else (aside from Nibali who had the s.t.). Then he beat all of them on Ventoux.

Maybe it's his climbing. Maybe it's his ability to recover. Maybe it's because he had strong teammates sacrificing themselves for him. But I don't see why any of that changes next season.

And I'm confused what AC did for Lance on Ventoux. AC went with Andy whenever he attacked... and Lance followed Frank any time he attacked. AC never worked to pull back Frank for Lance, and Lance never worked to pull back Andy for AC.

Lance should thank Kloden. (I don't know if he ever did). But not Contador.

Contracting him to Radioshack was the thank you. What a noble gesture...