Armstrong comments on Contador feud; "It was deliberate" - link in text.

[auscyclefan94]

He has to start the year with the goal to peak at the Giro since he won't know if he will ride the Tour. He might even have to race well in the early season as the team tries to impress the ASO and get a Tour slot. So he may not be able to arrive at the TdF in top form.

I give him a decent shot at winning the Giro.

The tour descision of which teams will be racing is made in March. John Lelangue said he will riding the giro. Evans said he would be targeting the grand tours which makes me think he's riding the giro.

Sorry, i'm going off topic and starting to ramble

 

[Earth Tribe]

Obviously you haven't read FACT 3 of my prior comments

Yes I did. That's why I pointed out that the lack of a team time trial may well not be as significant as you and others were saying. Remember Armstrong was a first class time trialist. In theory he should be able to recover most of that TT form, for the reasons I have highlighted. Not enough to beat AC or FC, but perhaps top five rather than top 15.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Yes I did. That's why I pointed out that the lack of a team time trial may well not be as significant as you and others were saying. Remember Armstrong was a first class time trialist. In theory he should be able to recover most of that TT form, for the reasons I have highlighted. Not enough to beat AC or FC, but perhaps top five rather than top 15.

i disagree. obviously you can't read as others have said. guys like conti, wiggins, evans, cancellara, leipheimer, vandevelde and kloden will beat him in a itt any day of the week and guys who have failed will beat him. you have guys like sanchez and valverde will be racing and beat him in itt's

 

[Earth Tribe]

The tour descision of which teams will be racing is made in March. John Lelangue said he will riding the giro. Evans said he would be targeting the grand tours which makes me think he's riding the giro.

Sorry, i'm going off topic and starting to ramble

No, thanks for the info. Off topic isn't too bad if it's to do with cycling. It's the off topic stuff that has nothing to do with cycling that spoils the threads. I don't know why the moderators tolerate it.

 

[richwagmn]

I think LA probably respects AC more after the TDF 09. AC didn't crack. He's as tough as they come and LA knows it.

 

[Earth Tribe]

i disagree. obviously you can't read as others have said. guys like conti, wiggins, evans, cancellara, leipheimer, vandevelde and kloden will beat him in a itt any day of the week and guys who have failed will beat him. you have guys like sanchez and valverde will be racing and beat him in itt's

Why do you believe this given we know Armstrong was a better time trialer than most of these riders? I don't understand your reasoning.

 

[Earth Tribe]

I think LA probably respects AC more after the TDF 09. AC didn't crack. He's as tough as they come and LA knows it.

Totally agreed.

 

[auscyclefan94]

No, thanks for the info. Off topic isn't too bad if it's to do with cycling. It's the off topic stuff that has nothing to do with cycling that spoils the threads. I don't know why the moderators tolerate it.

he's also confident that they will be racing the tour. thiers been some talks between the pair. i hav a feeling that it will be focus on giro with tour as a backup and then maybe go back to just doing the tour. wouldn't be great if he did the giro/tour double. i'm dreaming i know. the days of riders doing that are gone.

 

[Publicus]

Good for you, and the bookies agreed, but Armstrong was really an unknown quantity and the two riders were the favorites, so the idea that either one of them would obediently follow the other was never really on the cards. One of them first had to show they could make the distance.



(1) There was no hard and fast team leader at the beginning of the tour, as I understood it, so I don't know quite where you got that from.

(2)I think you're being unrealistic. In the real world we know Armstrong is not just any old rider - he won seven tours in a row, and he specifically said he came back to try to win the tour. To compare the situation with one his domestiques during his time winning tours is not to compare like with like. Armstrong always made sure he was not in a team with another tour favorite. Contador would have long known about Armstrong's intentions and must have expected this. He could have tried to block Armstrong coming back to his team, or moved to another team himself. In fact given Bruyneel's close relationship with Armstrong and Astana's ongoing troubles, it surprised me that Contador didn't chose to swap teams. Strange that. Could have saved himself a lot of hassle.



(3) But obviously until their respective form was shown Armstrong did not know for sure who was going to be team leader. Yes it was always likely that Contador would show his form in the mountains, but anything can happen in a tour so he was right to wait until the last moment. When that moment came, Armstrong then accepted Contador was the stronger rider and domestiqued for Contador. So lets get the record straight.



(4) I think it's pretty established that the rest of the team did not know he was going to attack. With two favorites in the same team that type of thing happens. I don't hold it against Contador - it's no great crime in that situation.

(1)

Team manager Johan Bruyneel said that Contador “has worked very hard, earning the right to represent our team as the leader this July.” He added that Armstrong “is extremely motivated for the Tour de France.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-names-tour-team-contador-and-armstrong-to-lead I lifted the quote since the Cyclingnews title was a bit misleading.

(2) I don't think it is unrealistic that he be aware of his own ambitions and conduct himself accordingly. Nor do I think it unrealistic that a 37 year 10 month old man, who hadn't won a significant race in 3+ years, suffered a broken collarbone and had shown nothing on the road leading up to the TdF would acknowledge that AC was the team leader.

(3) See point 2. Lance hadn't shown ANY form. He hadn't won ANY races. All we had was a big marketing build up and a bunch of comments from Lance about how he was hitting his 2002 numbers and there to win. But even accepting that nonsense, everyone knew who had the best form on the team after the prologue. Everyone.

(4) Your original contention was that he violated a direct team order (which he didn't because there was no team order to violate). I guess this is your way of trying to walk that back.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Why do you believe this given we know Armstrong was a better time trialer than most of these riders? I don't understand your reasoning.

Now he's not. most will say this. you think LA can improve 15% of 1 year. he can't climb with conti or schleck and a few of the other guys as well.

 

[auscyclefan94]

(1) http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-names-tour-team-contador-and-armstrong-to-lead I lifted the quote since the Cyclingnews title was a bit misleading.

(2) I don't think it is unrealistic that he be aware of his own ambitions and conduct himself accordingly. Nor do I think it unrealistic that a 37 year 10 month old man, who hadn't won a significant race in 3+ years, suffered a broken collarbone and had shown nothing on the road leading up to the TdF would acknowledge that AC was the team leader.

(3) See point 2. Lance hadn't shown ANY form. He hadn't won ANY races. All we had was a big marketing build up and a bunch of comments from Lance about how he was hitting his 2002 numbers and there to win. But even accepting that nonsense, everyone knew who had the best form on the team after the prologue. Everyone.

(4) Your original contention was that he violated a direct team order (which he didn't because there was no team order to violate). I guess this is your way of trying to walk that back.

publicus, you'll be happy to hear i am sticking up for conti for once.

 

[Publicus]

Yes I did. That's why I pointed out that the lack of a team time trial may well not be as significant as you and others were saying. Remember Armstrong was a first class time trialist. In theory he should be able to recover most of that TT form, for the reasons I have highlighted. Not enough to beat AC or FC, but perhaps top five rather than top 15.

What theory is that? All of this certainty that his form will be better but no real reasons proffered other than . . . it will be. Just say you "hope" he'll be able to recover. Or that you "hope" he'll get stronger next year. No one can really challenge you on that.

 

[Earth Tribe]

Now he's not. most will say this. you think LA can improve 15% of 1 year. he can't climb with conti or schleck and a few of the other guys as well.

I don't think 15% is the difference.

Once a pro rider is up to their peak power and form, nothing is left to do to improve but lose weight. That's why the pros are always going on about that issue. However, unfortunately, if you lose this weight before you are up to your top level - which is not a problem for most pros, since they have already done that bit - it can hit your power a lot.

We also know that TT power is one of the last things to go in pro-riders. So putting all this together, and taking into account that LA was a great TTist in his glory days, i think in theory he has the potential to improve quite a bit in this area - more so than in his climbing. Thus we remove much of the TTT factor that LA benefited from this year. That was really my point.

 

[Publicus]

publicus, you'll be happy to hear i am sticking up for conti for once.

I think that says more about the nonsense Earth is spouting than anything else.

Btw, I expect Cadel will have a good 2010. Confidence can make a world of difference amongst professional athletes--and you can tell he's feeling confident.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I think that says more about the nonsense Earth is spouting than anything else.

Btw, I expect Cadel will have a good 2010. Confidence can make a world of difference amongst professional athletes--and you can tell he's feeling confident.

i'm happy we can agree on something. go cadel go conti

 

[Earth Tribe]

What theory is that? All of this certainty that his form will be better but no real reasons proffered other than . . . it will be.

Um, I did explain the theory quite carefully. It's fairly common sense. And I was also careful to say that I was not certain in the least. This is obviously just a theoretical exercise - that's what sports fans do. Auscyclefan94 has done the same thing from his point of view. Nothing unusual about this.

 

[Earth Tribe]

Btw, I expect Cadel will have a good 2010. Confidence can make a world of difference amongst professional athletes--and you can tell he's feeling confident.

All this certainty. Aren't you just hoping this will be the case? You take the point...

 

[Earth Tribe]

(1) http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-names-tour-team-contador-and-armstrong-to-lead I lifted the quote since the Cyclingnews title was a bit misleading.

Thanks for that. That's interesting since it didn't seem to be the case by the time of the tour, and Bruyneel seemed to favour Armstrong much of the time. At least that's what the critics said.

(2) I don't think it is unrealistic that he be aware of his own ambitions and conduct himself accordingly. Nor do I think it unrealistic that a 37 year 10 month old man, who hadn't won a significant race in 3+ years, suffered a broken collarbone and had shown nothing on the road leading up to the TdF would acknowledge that AC was the team leader.

I take your point, but at that stage AC's total form was not fully known, and neither did Armstrong know his capabilities. I think he would have been mad not to at least have a go at it until it was completely and utterly clear the game was up. I think that's what most cycling fans wanted to see as well. They didn't fill the streets just to see the 7 time champ sit back and not even try.

(3) See point 2. Lance hadn't shown ANY form. He hadn't won ANY races.

Though he didn't actually win any races other than the tour when he won it every year, so that's not necessarily a guide.

(4) Your original contention was that he violated a direct team order (which he didn't because there was no team order to violate). I guess this is your way of trying to walk that back.

A bit lawyeristic, but I take your point.

 

[Publicus]

All this certainty. Aren't you just hoping this will be the case? You take the point...

I'm sure you have heard of synonyms. Expect (the root word of expectation) is a synonym for the word hope. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expecting

And I bet you were feeling pretty smug when you hit submit reply, weren't you. Here, take this EPIC FAIL with you as a parting gift.

 

[Earth Tribe]

I'm sure you have heard of synonyms. Expect (the root word of expectation) is a synonym for the word hope. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expecting

And I bet you were feeling pretty smug when you hit submit reply, weren't you. Here, take this EPIC FAIL with you as a parting gift.

Um, but that's what I was doing, to which you objected.

Strange.

 

[Publicus]

(1) Thanks for that. That's interesting since it didn't seem to be the case by the time of the tour, and Bruyneel seemed to favour Armstrong much of the time. At least that's what the critics said.



(2) I take your point, but at that stage AC's total form was not fully known, and neither did Armstrong know his capabilities. I think he would have been mad not to at least have a go at it until it was completely and utterly clear the game was up. I think that's what most cycling fans wanted to see as well. They didn't fill the streets just to see the 7 time champ sit back and not even try.



(3) Though he didn't actually win any races other than the tour when he won it every year, so that's not necessarily a guide.



(4) A bit lawyeristic, but I take your point.

(1) The article and quote was just before the TdF. But Bruyneel did favor Lance after the incidence on Stage 3.

(2) AC's form was known. Quite well. Everyone knew he was the man to beat. Won the Spanish TT championship. Toyed with Cadel at the Dauphine (sorry Aussiecycle). As for Lance, I don't begrudge him returning to race and gauging his form, but it was 2005 any more. He hadn't won. AC had won EVERY GT he had entered in the past two years. Every one of them. AC had been winning ALL YEAR. Lance, not so much. It's one thing if AC faltered on the road and Lance had the form and was there to take over. But that's not what happened. He was counting his past wins to earn him the current leadership. That's some pretty pathetic *** from a champion of his stature.

(3) Let's stay focused chief, we were talking about the 2009 racing year, not 2005.

(4) Apologies, I am a lawyer so it tends to slip into my forum discussions pretty easily.

 

[Publicus]

Um, but that's what I was doing, to which you objected.

Strange.

I stand corrected. I'll take that EPIC FAIL back and put it on my shelf.

 

[L29205]

WOW, this has been an interesting study in the LA love and hate soap opera all of these type of thread end up in.

I would like to bring up (on the subject of the thread) hopefully most people will agree with, LA fueled the feud with AC. It kept LA in the media spotlight but it did little damage to AC and probably helped him from a media exposure standpoint. I think that AC figured that pretty early and had no problem continuing the media feud since it helped him as well. AC is not an idiot.

 

[Earth Tribe]

(2) AC's form was known. Quite well. Everyone knew he was the man to beat. Won the Spanish TT championship. Toyed with Cadel at the Dauphine (sorry Aussiecycle).

Indeed. But I don't think people expected him to beat FB in the time trial and quite possibly break the all time power record for climbing. People knew he was the man to beat, but this was not yet known. He did bonk in the Paris Nice, don't forget. He wasn't as invincable before the tour as he now seems after it.

I do think winning seven tours does give you a little more something than any old rider coming back to race, and this must have been clear to everybody including AC, who chose to stay in a team packed with LA's old crew. This is the real world we're dealing with. But I think we're going round in circles now. I take your point.

 

[Publicus]

WOW, this has been an interesting study in the LA love and hate soap opera all of these type of thread end up in.

I would like to bring up (on the subject of the thread) hopefully most people will agree with, LA fueled the feud with AC. It kept LA in the media spotlight but it did little damage to AC and probably helped him from a media exposure standpoint. I think that AC figured that pretty early and had no problem continuing the media feud since it helped him as well. AC is not an idiot.

It has and it didn't really need to end up that way. And I think you have a very good point. During the TdF, AC was wise to keep his comments as neutral as possible and let the road decide the issue. Even when Bruyneel designated him team leader, he essentially shrugged it off and said that the road would decide. In contrast to some of Lance's antics, AC came off as the more mature of the two.

Frankly, I think Lance understands that his legacy is largely cast to history. At this point publicity (of any kind (well save a positive drug test)) is his friend. It keeps money flowing into LAF and indirectly his pockets. And keeps his sponsors in the press.