As McQuaid says : Only in Spain.

[Paco_P]

It's not scientific proof, but I'm afraid it's a good representation of what the average casual sports fan thinks. Anti-French feelings run deep.

As for it being a case of "only in Spain", that's a bit silly, considering LA's "French conspiracy" is brought up and mocked here on a regular basis.

While some kind of resentment towards the French is quite common in Spain, it focuses more on things like food (Spaniards resent all the press French cooking gets, since Spanish cooking is clearly better, being in fact the best in the world) and Napoleon than it does on cycling. Probably Goya's most famous painting commemorates the defense of Madrid against the Napoleonic invaders. Of course, the Spanish King is a Bourbon, and everybody has an uncle who emigrated to France looking for work during the Franco period, so it's a bit more complicated than that.

The "average casual sports fan" in Spain doesn't think much about cycling, unless he's a cyclist, but then he's not such a casual fan, and certainly doesn't think there is a French conspiracy against Contador. One or two trouble stirring articles from Eurosport don't demonstrate anything in this regard. The casual sports fan in Spain is more likely to think that Contador got caught, that all the top cyclists dope (look at Armstrong), and that doping to win races is like downloading copyrighted music and movies from the web - a divinely ordained right.

If one wants to know what the average casual sports fan in Spain thinks, then one should read Marca or its pro-Barca analogues. You'll find Contador after discussion of who will be signed by Werder Bremen, and before discussion of Spanish motorcycle champions. In the coverage of Contador you'll find discussion of the ongoing doping case against Contador, brief reporting on the results of whatever professional race is going on now, and opinion articles defending Contador, but it will be quite hard to find any discussion of a French conspiracy against Contador.

 

[sniper]

While some kind of resentment towards the French is quite common in Spain, it focuses more on things like food (Spaniards resent all the press French cooking gets, since Spanish cooking is clearly better, being in fact the best in the world) and Napoleon than it does on cycling. Probably Goya's most famous painting commemorates the defense of Madrid against the Napoleonic invaders. Of course, the Spanish King is a Bourbon, and everybody has an uncle who emigrated to France looking for work during the Franco period, so it's a bit more complicated than that.

The "average casual sports fan" in Spain doesn't think much about cycling, unless he's a cyclist, but then he's not such a casual fan, and certainly doesn't think there is a French conspiracy against Contador. One or two trouble stirring articles from Eurosport don't demonstrate anything in this regard. The casual sports fan in Spain is more likely to think that Contador got caught, that all the top cyclists dope (look at Armstrong), and that doping to win races is like downloading copyrighted music and movies from the web - a divinely ordained right.

If one wants to know what the average casual sports fan in Spain thinks, then one should read Marca or its pro-Barca analogues. You'll find Contador after discussion of who will be signed by Werder Bremen, and before discussion of Spanish motorcycle champions. In the coverage of Contador you'll find discussion of the ongoing doping case against Contador, brief reporting on the results of whatever professional race is going on now, and opinion articles defending Contador, but it will be quite hard to find any discussion of a French conspiracy against Contador.

you make some good points.
Still, the eurosport.es website is remarkably uncritical. It annoys me that they suggest that the French simply can't take it that Spaniards are winning sport events on French soil. To me, it seems closer to the truth that the French can't take it that a guy who obviously cheats (regardless of nationality) participates in the Tour.

The French aren't treating AC any different from LA. The French are quite straightforward and quite consistent: if you're an obvious cheater, you're not welcome, regardless of the flag you're riding under.
But eurosport.es is unwilling to assume this perspective.

But if you say so (and you clearly have a better overall view than I do), then I'm willing to believe that eurosport.es is not representative of Spanish sports fans / journalism.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

UCI asks for more respect for AC:

http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/16062011/47/tour-france-uci-pide-respeto-alberto-cntador.html

one comment in the commentry box struck me as typical:

En tiempos de Franco decían que no nos querían por la* dictadura. Ahora por Zapatero. ¿ Y nuestros pepinos,* hortalizas y frutas qué culpa tienen?. Hasta los* alemanes que parecían amigos nos han defraudado.* Mientras tanto, por Europa la corrupción y los caciques* mandan y ordenan a su gusto.No queiren a Nadal ni a* Contador ni a nada que huela a España. Cada día me* siento más orgulloso de ser español y me avergüenzo un* poco más de haber entrado en la CE.

it's getting pretty serious.

I have to admit my knowledge of Spanish is non-existant so I have to use Google translate, with mixed success.

In times of Franco said he did not want us in the * dictatorship. Now for Zapatero. And our cucumbers, vegetables and fruits * what fault do you have?. * Even the Germans who seemed to have let us down friends .* Meanwhile, in Europe and the chiefs corruption * command and ordered his gusto.No Siqueiros Nadal or * counter or anything that smacks of Spain. * Every day I feel more proud to be Spanish and I am ashamed a * little more coming into the EC.

This wasn't one of the more successful ones.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

you make some good points.
Still, the eurosport.es website is remarkably uncritical. It annoys me that they suggest that the French simply can't take it that Spaniards are winning sport events on French soil. To me, it seems closer to the truth that the French can't take it that a guy who obviously cheats (regardless of nationality) participates in the Tour.

The French aren't treating AC any different from LA. The French are quite straightforward and quite consistent: if you're an obvious cheater, you're not welcome, regardless of the flag you're riding under.
But eurosport.es is unwilling to assume this perspective.

But if you say so (and you clearly have a better overall view than I do), then I'm willing to believe that eurosport.es is not representative of Spanish sports fans / journalism.

I don't recall much French criticism of Oscar P, Sastre or Mig when they won the TDF. Mig I think was criticised for lacking panache.

If there is anti-Spanish sentiment it is, as you say, more about the fact that i) Dertie and Nadal are the poster boys for chemically enhanced sport, ii) while the French authorities have taken a hardline (post-Festina) on doping, while the Spanish authorities have covered up and protected their dopers and their aiders and abettors.

What is more interesting is the Spanish 'victimhood' discourse, which Dertie is quite happy to tap into. It's not because he is a cheating, lying doper that people dislike him, its because he's Spanish and everyone is always ganging up on Spain.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...
What is more interesting is the Spanish 'victimhood' discourse, which Dertie is quite happy to tap into. It's not because he is a cheating, lying doper that people dislike him, its because he's Spanish and everyone is always ganging up on Spain.

It's self-fulfilling.

 

[Señor_Contador]

First of all, what that guy is saying sounds eerily faimiliar to the comments we all used to hear during Franco's regime.

They are a minority though, not the majority at all.

Now, there is certain public discontect in Spain towards the actions of some European governments, like Germany's, which, I hate to say, is the source of a lot of bad publicity about Spain's economy or its products.

The e-coli fiasco is only but the tip of the iceberg. It's the old South vs. North conflict. The north of Europe is industrious and effective the south is stagnant, backward-looking and dependant on the north (full of siesta-taking lazy *******s). It's demagogy that sells very well north of the Pyrenees and Alps by the way.

I, for the life of me, would never understand how the German government buying up Spanish or Greek debt notes automatically translates in Spain owing Germany anything, and that is the sort of demagogy that is being thrown around within the German political elites, which ultimately makes it to the media and ends up shaping people's opinions of other groups. Logic would tell you that if someone is paying you and extra 5% on your investment he/she is doing YOU a favor.

I think I'm getting off subject here so I'm going to stop.

 

[sniper]

I know this level of naivity only from the Spanish press (well, from eurosport.es):

http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/18062011/47/liga-mas-vigilado-vampiros-bar.html

the naivity is quite limitless, imo.
not going to help spain recuperate a clean image.

I don't recall much French criticism of Oscar P, Sastre or Mig when they won the TDF. Mig I think was criticised for lacking panache.

+1

 

[Señor_Contador]

I know this level of naivity only from the Spanish press (well, from eurosport.es):

http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/18062011/47/liga-mas-vigilado-vampiros-bar.html

the naivity is quite limitless, imo.
not going to help spain recuperate a clean image.

+1

You ought to wrap naivity in quotes, as the Spanish press is very much aware of the doping issue, they just refuse to investigate anything. Apart from Diario As' dossier on the Manzano affair and Marca's potshots at Barcelona's medical team... I do not recall any of the big media outlets investigating anything at all.

 

[sniper]

You ought to wrap naivity in quotes, as the Spanish press is very much aware of the doping issue, they just refuse to investigate anything. Apart from Diario As' dossier on the Manzano affair and Marca's potshots at Barcelona's medical team... I do not recall any of the big media outlets investigating anything at all.

Good points.
the problem remains, though, that the foreign (e.g. German or French) press do actually investigate, and this is interpreted by several Spanish media as resulting some sort of anti-Spanish-sentiment.
It would all be way less embarrassing if the Spanish media themselves started showing some engagement and desire to clean the house. That would be a way of eradicating at least some of the scepticism towards Spanish sports, a scepticism which is currently widespread in countries such as France and Germany.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

You ought to wrap naivity in quotes, as the Spanish press is very much aware of the doping issue, they just refuse to investigate anything. Apart from Diario As' dossier on the Manzano affair and Marca's potshots at Barcelona's medical team... I do not recall any of the big media outlets investigating anything at all.

In your opinion why don't the press investigate?

 

[Señor_Contador]

In your opinion why don't the press investigate?

That's an easy answer: $$.

Diario Marca, a sports newspaper, is # 1 in readership in Spain. Sporting events tend to be up there near the top in TV viewership.

I think it has to do with the fact that the economy is in such disarray that it's the only scape from the nasty reality of having the work some of the longest hours in Europe for some of the lowest salaries. So it's no wander they look at Nadal and La Roja as icons.

Wouldn't you?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Indeed. Isn't Marca as Real supporting paper as well which would maybe explain the digs about Barca.

In the anglophone media there are a lot of very close personal links between the media and the teams. An awful lot of press releases masquerading as news etc, the anglophone media won't (or wouldn't) investigate or attack Armstrong etc because if they did then they would be cut off from their supply of 'news'.

It's cheaper to employ someone to type up press releases than to do any 'proper' journalism, plus the 24 hour news cycle means that quantity is more important than quality.

I don't know how this compares to the Spanish media but there is also a dearth of serious cycling journalists - other than Kimmage and Walsh the rest are fanboys and lackeys.

 

[icefire]

That's an easy answer: $$.

Diario Marca, a sports newspaper, is # 1 in readership in Spain. Sporting events tend to be up there near the top in TV viewership.

I think it has to do with the fact that the economy is in such disarray that it's the only scape from the nasty reality of having the work some of the longest hours in Europe for some of the lowest salaries. So it's no wander they look at Nadal and La Roja as icons.

Wouldn't you?

I think you're just half right. Sports media are protecting their own pockets. People only follows the sport if their local hero wins something, as F1 proves. And this is independent of the state of the country's economic affairs.

TV audiences showed that nobody cared about cycling and the Tour between the defeat of Indurain and the first win of Contador despite the podiums of Escartín or Beloki. So it was ok to throw some shit at cycling then with Manzano's case.

 

[sniper]

Forgot where we were discussing doping in football.

Xavi is the guy who makes most meters on the pitch for Barca with an average of 12 kilometers per match. Wasn't he formerly known for his surplus in skills combined with a lack of endurance?
http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/18062011/47/liga-jugador-bar-mas-corre.html



Here an interesting piece on how endurance has increased quite spectacularly in English football over the last few years. Not the number of kilometers itself has increased, but the distance covered while sprinting:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article722711.ece

 

[Señor_Contador]

I think you're just half right. Sports media are protecting their own pockets. People only follows the sport if their local hero wins something, as F1 proves. And this is independent of the state of the country's economic affairs.

TV audiences showed that nobody cared about cycling and the Tour between the defeat of Indurain and the first win of Contador despite the podiums of Escartín or Beloki. So it was ok to throw some shit at cycling then with Manzano's case.

No, I'm right all the way. Noone here is saying that people in Spain only follow a sport if there's a local boy in the running, that goes without saying, it happens in every country.

What we are saying is that, in Spain, the doping problem and any investigation of it, be it by the media or the police, is given minimal media time or attention. TVE's usual reporting of the doping issue is by overemphasizing things that make people believe doping is a thing of 3 or 4 Spanish athletes. They shape people's opinions.

In the case of cycling, when it comes to doping, TVE ALWAYS puts the microphone in front of Perico's face because Perico himself used to dope, although he was never really busted for it, and he, for some reason I ignore, is seen as someone credible amongst many cycling-loving Spaniars. His usual tirade against the "dark forces" that are making this sport a doormat sounds more like junkie logic to me, kinda like Charlie Sheen talking about the police. If, 20 years down the line, cyclists start dropping like flies I want, better yet, I demand to see his ugly face on TV and explain to everyone how he lied, fabricated and excused positive attitudes towards doping in cycling.

 

[Paco_P]

I know this level of naivity only from the Spanish press (well, from eurosport.es):

http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/18062011/47/liga-mas-vigilado-vampiros-bar.html

the naivity is quite limitless, imo.
not going to help spain recuperate a clean image.

+1

Eurosport is NOT the Spanish press! It's a French company. This is like saying CNN is the German press just because CNN broadcasts in German in Germany (I suppose it does).

I think these articles reflect some effort by someone to generate polemic - and very little else.

The Spanish sports media is well aware of the doping that goes on in a variety of sports - there's plenty of allusion to it in coverage of Contador. Nadal is loved even by grandmas, so no one is going to go after him, particularly when there's been no institutional evidence against him - as to do so would not be good for business.

 

[Paco_P]

In the case of cycling, when it comes to doping, TVE ALWAYS puts the microphone in front of Perico's face because Perico himself used to dope, although he was never really busted for it, and he, for some reason I ignore, is seen as someone credible amongst many cycling-loving Spaniars. His usual tirade against the "dark forces" that are making this sport a doormat sounds more like junkie logic to me, kinda like Charlie Sheen talking about the police. If, 20 years down the line, cyclists start dropping like flies I want, better yet, I demand to see his ugly face on TV and explain to everyone how he lied, fabricated and excused positive attitudes towards doping in cycling.

I think that what happens with Perico is that people who know nothing about cycling, but watch the Tour while sleeping siesta in July, find him entertaining to listen to and likeable. He's known outside the cycling world more than anyone in it besides Indurain. If your grandma like him, it's harder to dislike him. He looks the other way on doping. He certainly never calls anyone out by name - but what reason is there to think he might? - he was in the thing after all - and he's not going to ruin the good thing he's got going.

 

[Cloxxki]

Track sprinter Digna Luz Murillo was supposed to represent Spain in the EC for nations in Stockholm but became a last-minute withdrawal by the Spanish union, based on proof the union had found that she's still be working with Pascua.

Apparently non that Pascua is suspended, it's a issue to still work with him, even when there is not sufficient ground to suspend upon prior association with the doping coach.

Reported on http://www.losseveter.nl which also published exclusives from visits to Madrid.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Let me be clear though: No governmental body is going to throw their country's best athletes "under the bus". I know of no such examples. I mean... they will "quaratine" the small fish and use them as scapegoats, and at the same time, support the big timers (AC, Nadal, et cetera) institutionally all the time.

And it happens in countries like France and Germany too.

 

[poupou]

Let me be clear though: No governmental body is going to throw their country's best athletes "under the bus". I know of no such examples. I mean... they will "quaratine" the small fish and use them as scapegoats, and at the same time, support the big timers (AC, Nadal, et cetera) institutionally all the time.

And it happens in countries like France and Germany too.

The problem is when they are caught protecting their athletes like it was done with Puerto!

 

[sniper]

Let me be clear though: No governmental body is going to throw their country's best athletes "under the bus". I know of no such examples. I mean... they will "quaratine" the small fish and use them as scapegoats, and at the same time, support the big timers (AC, Nadal, et cetera) institutionally all the time.

And it happens in countries like France and Germany too.

I agree with the first part. but why that apologist closing remark? what a petty.

germany? >> Ulrich / Telekom / Pechstein
france? >> Festina, Ribery / l'equipe nationale (not doping, but still received a devastating French press last year, nothing covered up)
spain? >> .....

The problem is when they are caught protecting their athletes like it was done with Puerto!

+1
exactly.

 

[Suedehead]

Let me be clear though: No governmental body is going to throw their country's best athletes "under the bus". I know of no such examples. I mean... they will "quaratine" the small fish and use them as scapegoats, and at the same time, support the big timers (AC, Nadal, et cetera) institutionally all the time.

And it happens in countries like France and Germany too.

The Italians threw Pantani "under the bus". Getting a call from Verbruggen calling it bad style chasing a poor bike rider. And Basso and Scarponi and Di Luca and... Ulrich being germany's big timer didn't help him much after Puerto. Virenque didn't get much help after Festina, ending up in court.

Could it be that some institutions go further in protecting than others?

 

[Benotti69]

The Italians threw Pantani "under the bus". Getting a call from Verbruggen calling it bad style chasing a poor bike rider. And Basso and Scarponi and Di Luca and... Ulrich being germany's big timer didn't help him much after Puerto. Virenque didn't get much help after Festina, ending up in court.

Could it be that some institutions go further in protecting than others?

I hope you're not insinuating that the Spanish dont take doping seriously???

What about Valverde? he got a ban

 

[Cloxxki]

More than WHOM to know, it seems to be all about WHAT you know about them. Being important by itself doesn't seem to be sufficient protection. Ullrich being a prime example.

If you don't hold very sensitive information on the policy makers slash presecutors, you're going to get a very fair trial. You're toast.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I agree with the first part. but why that apologist closing remark? what a petty.

germany? >> Ulrich / Telekom / Pechstein
france? >> Festina, Ribery / l'equipe nationale (not doping, but still received a devastating French press last year, nothing covered up)
spain? >> .....


+1
exactly.

I'm clearly not apologizing. I am making it CLEAR that protecting dopers is not something that only happens in Spain. And, by default, since most of the criticism comes from Germany and France, invite the French and German forumers so quick to point the finger at Spain to do the same with their own authorities.

Capisci?