Astana rider details Contador's doping practices

[Aguirre]

this is bull****, didn't win Contador the TT prologue? Wasn't contador very good at Paris-Niza this year?

Just to remind people last year 2009 Paris-Niza and "he has lots to learn" to discredit things like that... remember, after P-N 2009 Lance was to smash Conti at the Tour.

Many people show having weak memory.

Contador is human, can't be winning all the time, and if he does, then will be under suspicion, he is on doping etc. coherency please!!!

 

[ChrisE]

I think you are confusing the quote. It says that he was overweight during DL, and that is why he took Clen. You are interpreting it to mean he took it during the DL, and I think they mean that the reason he took it afterward was because he needed to lose a pound or two.

It also says:
"Contador finished second overall in the Dauphiné, but appeared to be below his usual strength there. He was beaten by an impressive Janez Brajkovic (Team RadioShack), who finished 1’41 ahead at the end of the event. Contador was only sixth behind Brajkovic in the time trial and was unable to drop his rival on the crucial stage to Alpe d’Huez, although he won the sprint to the line.

Contador needed to ensure that he would be at a better level in the Tour. At the time, he said that the first event would help him sharpen up for the second. Indeed, in recent years, riders who were at top strength in the Dauphiné tended to below-par in the Tour de France; those who performed better in the July event were able to improve from the their Dauphiné form rather than already being at a peak."


Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...rior-to-the-Tour-de-France.aspx#ixzz11negCh5M

OK, the issue is what CN said and it does seem the original article leaves some things up to interpretation. It doesn't matter because....

Why didn't AC get tested OOC between the DL and tour? It seems if he was, and he took clen then instead of during the DL, it seems to me from what I have read about the amount needed to be effective, concentrations would have been high enough for him to be AAF regardless of the lab. And, this could have been anytime during June since effective concentrations are so much higher than the testing threshold, so it takes a long time to get out of the system to not trigger a positive.

IF he took it during the DL, then it seems he would've gotten busted there as I have stated. How can the #1 cyclist in the world take this stuff and get away with it if either one of these scenarios is correct?

Who administers the tests OOC? WADA or the UCI?

 

[Anonymous]

OK, the issue is what CN said and it does seem the original article leaves some things up to interpretation. It doesn't matter because....

Why didn't AC get tested OOC between the DL and tour? It seems if he was, and he took clen then instead of during the DL, it seems to me from what I have read about the amount needed to be effective, concentrations would have been high enough for him to be AAF regardless of the lab. And, this could have been anytime during June since effective concentrations are so much higher than the testing threshold, so it takes a long time to get out of the system to not trigger a positive.

IF he took it during the DL, then it seems he would've gotten busted there as I have stated. How can the #1 cyclist in the world take this stuff and get away with it if either one of these scenarios is correct?

Who administers the tests OOC? WADA or the UCI?

I have no idea. What I do know is that the UCI was looking for a chewbacca defense for several weeks before this story broke, and I would not put it past them to have tipped off the important riders in the "clean generation" so they could remain "clean."

 

[Merckx index]

Why didn't AC get tested OOC between the DL and tour? It seems if he was, and he took clen then instead of during the DL, it seems to me from what I have read about the amount needed to be effective, concentrations would have been high enough for him to be AAF regardless of the lab. And, this could have been anytime during June since effective concentrations are so much higher than the testing threshold, so it takes a long time to get out of the system to not trigger a positive.

No, the half-life has been reported at 24-40 hours. Assuming his sample was tested at one of these labs with less sensitive equipment, he could have easily slipped under the radar.

I think the better argument here is that he would have been stupid to take the risk, even if relatively small, for a drug known to be detectable, with better alternatives available.

But really, the way to answer this question, or at least to get a better idea of the answer, is to find out whether, and if so, when, Bert was tested during that DL-TDF interval. It's not classified information.

 

[Polish]

'Bruyneel' was the first thing that came to my mind......

Bruyneel has already come out in support of Alberto:

"Johan Bruyneel, Contador's manager on the Discovery Channel and Astana teams, told The Associated Press that "I've worked with him for three years. I personally cannot believe he is guilty."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...tSpH-kzcCj4MpZhIFNNQD9IN11U00?docId=D9IN11U00


That said, when Alberto and Johan parted ways, Johan made the comment that Alberto "had his own people". At the time, I thought that Johan was distancing himself from Alberto....

Alberto's next DS at Astana, Martinelli, also made similiar comments when Alberto jumped from his team.

If the whistle-blower is part of Martinelli's Astana, I do not think it will reflect badly on them necessarily...

 

[Race Radio]

If it is Bruyneel then he's committing suicide. Because the doping, if described as being what went on in 2009, was done under his auspices.

As for the person who ratted Contador out, if he is a current Astana team member rest assured he will never ride or work for a pro Tour team ever again.

Astana did have a Belgium DS' who is still tight with the Hog.

 

[Aguirre]

Bruyneel has already come out in support of Alberto:

"Johan Bruyneel, Contador's manager on the Discovery Channel and Astana teams, told The Associated Press that "I've worked with him for three years. I personally cannot believe he is guilty."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...tSpH-kzcCj4MpZhIFNNQD9IN11U00?docId=D9IN11U00


That said, when Alberto and Johan parted ways, Johan made the comment that Alberto "had his own people". At the time, I thought that Johan was distancing himself from Alberto....

Alberto's next DS at Astana, Martinelli, also made similiar comments when Alberto jumped from his team.

If the whistle-blower is part of Martinelli's Astana, I do not think it will reflect badly on them necessarily...

too much casuistics? aren't? I mean, the case is Contador leaves Astana... not staying. Then you must relativize comments. Similar to the Riis against the brothers and Cancellara case.

Revenge exists in this world. Seems too much in cycling.

Btw didn't see any comment from Martinelli when contador signed with riijs

 

[WinterRider]

ummm...the concentration is the same in 1 cc as it is in 150 cc as it is in 4.5 liters. The concentration is the same, you mean the absolute amount perhaps? Concentration is in milligrams per milliliter, or nanograms per milliliter right?

If the concentration in 4.5 litres (his body before the transfusion) is 0, and is 50 nanograms after a transfusion, then the concentration in the 150 cc blood bag has to be 30 times higher than what was detected since it diffused in the body.

Although as someone pointed out below the detected amount was from a urine test, so my whole method of doing math to show he waited until it was undetectable by standard tests might be pointless anyway.

What is clear is that if the clen came from a 150cc blood bag, then concentration in that bag was much higher that what was detected in his test, since all the clen in his body at the time of the test came from that one little bag.

 

[MacRoadie]

Why didn't AC get tested OOC between the DL and tour?

This is a good question.

Just thinking out loud here, but if we look at historical OOC testing numbers, there really aren't that many tests administered, especially if the athlete is not within the jurisdiction of his own ADA (for reference only look at how many times USADA tested Armrstrong OOC).

Plus, and this is pure speculation, the period between the DL and Le Tour has "historically" been the time when riders banked their blood, rather than infusing it. Logically, you'd expect this period to be the "cleanest" as riders want those super clean RBC's for those Tour rest days to limit the risk of an in-competition positive when tests are more likely and numerous.

ADA's may figure if riders are targeting that period to bank clean blood, then there's little upside to doing OOC's during that period.

The difference this time was that Contador came out of the DL heavy and underpowered and had to modify things ever so slightly (or so he thought) to get that weight down before the trip to the bank.

 

[Aguirre]

The difference this time was that Contador came out of the DL heavy and underpowered and had to modify things ever so slightly (or so he thought) to get that weight down before the trip to the bank.[/QUOTE]

again, Contador heavy and underpowered?

 

[hrotha]

This is a good question.

Just thinking out loud here, but if we look at historical OOC testing numbers, there really aren't that many tests administered, especially if the athlete is not within the jurisdiction of his own ADA (for reference only look at how many times USADA tested Armrstrong OOC).

Plus, and this is pure speculation, the period between the DL and Le Tour has "historically" been the time when riders banked their blood, rather than infusing it. Logically, you'd expect this period to be the "cleanest" as riders want those super clean RBC's for those Tour rest days to limit the risk of an in-competition positive when tests are more likely and numerous.

ADA's may figure if riders are targeting that period to bank clean blood, then there's little upside to doing OOC's during that period.

The difference this time was that Contador came out of the DL heavy and underpowered and had to modify things ever so slightly (or so he thought) to get that weight down before the trip to the bank.

Which reminds me of this question I posted earlier in this thread and which you punks ignored

I thought riders drew blood early in the season in order to get conveniently boosted blood, and therefore that drawing blood during the Dauphiné, while possible because there's enough time to recover, wouldn't be ideal. Am I remembering things wrong, have things changed due to the biological passport, or was Contador simply forced to do it because he miscalculated?

 

[Race Radio]

Chris Van Roosbroeck and laurenzo Lapage would be good names as potential sources

 

[Anonymous]

too much casuistics? aren't? I mean, the case is Contador leaves Astana... not staying. Then you must relativize comments. Similar to the Riis against the brothers and Cancellara case.

Revenge exists in this world. Seems too much in cycling.

Btw didn't see any comment from Martinelli when contador signed with riijs

Doping exists in cycling, and Contador did it.

 

[WinterRider]

There's something missing in your maths. Clen was found in the urine test, not the blood test. Deriving clen concentration in urine from its concentration in blood is a bit more complex and surely doesn't lead to a 1/1 ratio.

Well if the Clen came from a 150cc blood bag, then the concentration in the body's blood immediately after the infusion would be about 30 times lower that the concentration in the blood in the bag (which would have been the concentration Contador's blood when it was drawn).

So at what rate is Clen filtered out into the urine? Couldn't find that on the web, but its safe to assume it goes up when the Clen concentration in the blood goes up. Contador's test showed 50 picograms/ml, and from here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9213863

a toxic amount (requiring a visit to the hospital) is 50 +- 42 nanograms/ml (in urine tests). So 1000 times the concentration in Contadors test is toxic. Given that levels so high can be filtered out by the kidney, it seems likely that a 30 times increase in clen concentration would result in a 30 times increase in urine concentration.

I'm no expert, but it seems like a reasonable explanation to me. Much more so that Contador's story.

 

[Aguirre]

Doping exists in cycling, and Contador did it.

and Andy Schleck was clean

it seems a question of believe...

 

[MacRoadie]

again, Contador heavy and underpowered?

Again, not my opinion but those stated in the article. We also don't know what Contador's target weight or power numbers were. Regardless of how well he did in the DL, he and his people may have felt they weren't on schedule to hit his TdF targets and needed to take additional action.

As I stated, my post was simply a theory based on the representations of Contador's fitness from the article.

 

[WinterRider]

Contador needed to ensure that he would be at a better level in the Tour. At the time, he said that the first event would help him sharpen up for the second. Indeed, in recent years, riders who were at top strength in the Dauphiné tended to below-par in the Tour de France; those who performed better in the July event were able to improve from the their Dauphiné form rather than already being at a peak."

Read the second bolded bit, in recent years tour winners have improved from their form from the Dauphine.

In recent years this improvement has been because they saved their blood bags for July, and not for the Dauphine. Contador doing a transfusion fits this theory pretty well.

 

[Chuffy]

Chris Van Roosbroeck and laurenzo Lapage would be good names as potential sources

Who are these chaps?

 

[Aguirre]

Read the second bolded bit, in recent years tour winners have improved from their form from the Dauphine.

In recent years this improvement has been because they saved their blood bags for July, and not for the Dauphine. Contador doing a transfusion fits this theory pretty well.

so, all tour winners, all top 5 and almost top 10 of the.. let's say, 15 years have been saving blood bags for July.

Then the greatest champions are those who win the DL, not the TdF.

look beyond your glasses

 

[MacRoadie]

micro dosing blood is a stupid argument, microdosing blood with Clen is even more ridiculous. Prehistoric.

I think he was 3rd in 2009, oh my god! worst that this year! Then more microdosing?

Nice.

First of all, no one said he was microdosing blood, clenbuterol, or any combination thereof...

There were two points made: the first was that there was some clenbuterol left in his system at some period between the Dauphine' and Le Tour. No mention of how it was introduced into his system, when, or where.

Second, in order to create as little variation in his passport values (as would be expected as a result of making a deposit), the blood was removed in smaller (150ml) amounts, rather than all 450 ml at one time.

There was micro drawing, not microdosing.

 

[hrotha]

so, all tour winners, all top 5 and almost top 10 of the.. let's say, 15 years have been saving blood bags for July.

Then the greatest champions are those who win the DL, not the TdF.

look beyond your glasses

I think you need to read about Jörg Jaksche, it's a fascinating trip through the motions of doping in 1997-2007.

 

[MacRoadie]

look beyond your glasses

Amazing.

In 2010, someone comes along suggesting we look beyond out glasses to the truth that blood doping doesn't exist.

 

[WinterRider]

so, all tour winners, all top 5 and almost top 10 of the.. let's say, 15 years have been saving blood bags for July.

Then the greatest champions are those who win the DL, not the TdF.

look beyond your glasses

No, the greatest champions are the ones who saved their bags for July, the second raters can't tell how to read a calendar and use them too soon (such as at the Dauphine) or too late (any test for plasticisers at the Vuelta?)

 

[L29205]

Which reminds me of this question I posted earlier in this thread and which you punks ignored

Concerning when blood is taken out for the tour. Several other of the doping threads have documented quite well that the shelf life for blood is between 35-42 days. A withdraw at the time frame in question would be correct based on the these consideration.

 

[thehog]

I read the CN article which states he took it during the DL.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ast...dor-used-clenbuterol-at-criterium-du-dauphine

Well I hope Cyclingnews feels stupid. Humo is a parody magazine. They made up the story!