Astana rider details Contador's doping practices

[roundabout]

You know as well as I do that everybody here complains about how boring the Tour is every year and that they never attack and that there aren't enough hard mountain stages,etc. Yet at the same time they want a cleaner sport. Quite the paradox ain't it.

Err, what?

 

[El Pistolero]

I would factor in the high likelihood of masking agent here.

Good luck masking Clen.

 

[scribe]

Good luck masking Clen.

Somewhere, Contador just winced when you hit the 'submit reply' button.

 

[scribe]

Most of these couldn't pay Conti's lawyers. And of course I'm sticking with official facts. Otherwise all GT contenders needs to get a 2 year ban. And recently an athlete only get a one year ban for Clen because they believed the meat contamination story to be plausible.

Schleck is still riding after he paid a certain doctor €7000 on his bank account. If he's still riding it's not totally impossible that Conti can get away with it. I'm just saying, you might get disappointed with the outcome of Conti's case here. The only reason why I will be disappointed if Contador gets banned is that Andy Schleck will be shoulders above everyone else. It will be the Armstrong ERA all over again. And Schleck is just 25 years old yet *sigh*.

Schleck deserves the benefit of the doubt until he himself fails a doping control. If the authorities are willing to take out golden boy, then I feel confident AS's time will be soon too if he doesn't straighten up.

 

[El Pistolero]

Schleck deserves the benefit of the doubt until he himself fails a doping control. If the authorities are willing to take out golden boy, then I feel confident AS's time will be soon too if he doesn't straighten up.

Nope, if Contador gets banned Andy Schleck will dominate for at least 3 years. 2 years when Contador is banned and one year because after a ban of 2 years you won't be in good shape.

Schleck deserves the benefit of the doubt, but Conti doesn't?

Let's keep it neutral, they both don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Cause a certain mr. Armstrong never tested positive as well. Does he deserve your benefit of the doubt as well? Or Ivan Basso?

 

[BigFatSal]

That relies on the assumption that he actually had a cold.

In the video interview it certainly sounded like it. I wish I could remember where I saw it.

 

[scribe]

Nope, if Contador gets banned Andy Schleck will dominate for at least 3 years. 2 years when Contador is banned and one year because after a ban of 2 years you won't be in good shape.

Schleck deserves the benefit of the doubt, but Conti doesn't?

Let's keep it neutral, they both don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I don't believe Shrek has failed any of his blood and **** tests. I believe Contador has.

 

[hrotha]

Most of these couldn't pay Conti's lawyers. And of course I'm sticking with official facts. Otherwise all GT contenders needs to get a 2 year ban. And recently an athlete only get a one year ban for Clen because they believed the meat contamination story to be plausible.

Fränk Schleck is still riding after he paid a certain doctor €7000 on his bank account. If he's still riding it's not totally impossible that Conti can get away with it. I'm just saying, you might get disappointed with the outcome of Conti's case here. The only reason why I will be disappointed if Contador gets banned is that Andy Schleck will be shoulders above everyone else. It will be the Armstrong ERA all over again. And Schleck is just 25 years old yet *sigh*. Oh well, at least the classics will still be exciting.

So in other words you think Contador doped and you want his positive to be waived. Armstrong era again indeed.

 

[El Pistolero]

I don't believe Shrek has failed any of his blood and **** tests. I believe Contador has.

Contador never failed a blood test.

I'm sure you passed your fantasy test.

 

[El Pistolero]

So in other words you think Contador doped and you want his positive to be waived. Armstrong era again indeed.

No, I want this plastic test to be done on every GT contender of the Tour this year.

If you 100% believe Contador blood doped because of this plastic test alone(and you do) and others also show high levels then they need to get the same punishment as Contador.

Who knows, Vino might win the Tour after all this year!

 

[Cloxxki]

Funny.
If you use a 500ml bag for 150ml of blood, there will be over 3x the amount of plastisizer in the blood over the same amount of time as a full bag.
Using a 150ml bag will help some, but not a lot. (3) 167ml bags still have greater surface area than 1x500ml.
Not that it really matters, next year they'll have better containers for the blood.

I agree, all GC contenders of the past YEARS should be tested for plasterizers. No excuses, clean up cycling of these dopers. Find the eldest sample by a rider to show the plasterizers, scratch all results since it, demand prize money back, and THEN ban for 2 years onward, preferably starting a day in March.

 

[El Pistolero]

Funny.
If you use a 500ml bag for 150ml of blood, there will be over 3x the amount of plastisizer in the blood over the same amount of time as a full bag.
Using a 150ml bag will help some, but not a lot. (3) 167ml bags still have greater surface area than 1x500ml.
Not that it really matters, next year they'll have better containers for the blood.

I agree, all GC contenders of the past YEARS should be tested for plasterizers. No excuses, clean up cycling of these dopers. Find the eldest sample by a rider to show the plasterizers, scratch all results since it, demand prize money back, and THEN ban for 2 years onward, preferably starting a day in March.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[hrotha]

No, I want this plastic test to be done on every GT contender of the Tour this year.

If you 100% believe Contador blood doped because of this plastic test alone(and you do) and others also show high levels then they need to get the same punishment as Contador.

Who knows, Vino might win the Tour after all this year!

No, they can't do that until the test is validated.

However, if the test is validated next month I'd fully support retesting all available samples from the past 8 years. Although it won't be pretty.

 

[El Pistolero]

No, they can't do that until the test is validated.

However, if the test is validated next month I'd fully support retesting all available samples from the past 8 years. Although it won't be pretty.

Past 5 years. IV was allowed till 2005, no? So, sadly these cyclists have an excuse.

My opinion on this matter is simple really:

Either you don't use this as evidence against Contador or you use it as evidence against all cyclists. Samples are frozen for a reason.

 

[BigFatSal]

No, they can't do that until the test is validated.

However, if the test is validated next month I'd fully support retesting all available samples from the past 8 years. Although it won't be pretty.

Will there be enough riders left to make up a team

 

[roundabout]

At the end of the day any possible retesting is going to be very selective. I doubt that WADA has the resources to take on 8 years worth of dopers at once.

 

[soslow]

Something deeper going on?

AC is now accused of taking doses of clenbuterol after the Dauphine to loose weight.

He could either refute this right away by showing there was a surprise out of competition test during this time, since...

He would not take such an easily detectable drug with the risk of these out of competion tests right before the Tour. So if he was not tested, he must have known he would not be tested and that points to something deeper, a cooperation between him and the doping controllers.

 

[tubularglue]

astana/$/protour status = no control

possibility

or he ate a ton of spanish steak, two weeks prior to the dauphine

it is a well known fact Astana training camps involve a large consumption of spanish beef

 

[Cloxxki]

At the end of the day any possible retesting is going to be very selective. I doubt that WADA has the resources to take on 8 years worth of dopers at once.

Start working at 2005, only take big money makers. Most samples are from podium winners anyway. Take big classics podiums, and those after rest days of GC's. They'll know where to look, to get the highest amount of positives.
If the deal is to scratch all results after the positive, they only need one or 2 samples per big rider, from 2005 or 2006. No need to even look at recent samples. Except when a second positive of the same violation, say, 3 years later, is enough for a lifetime ban. Some young riders could see their 2010 sample checked after the 2006 came back positive. Saves them a lot of training miles. You knew the rules, this is how the game is played.

 

[oldxer]

Second hand clenbuterol?

Given the very low level of clenbuterol detected I'm surprised that no one (as far as I know) has raised the possibility of this being an innocent case of 2nd hand inhalation. What levels could be expected to be detected if you spent some time in the same air space where someone had used a clenbuterol inhaler legally?

Although I like AC, I'm not grasping for straws here, I think the blood transfusion is the most likely explanation. I'm just wondering why AC's not raising this possibility along with the meat explanation.

 

[roundabout]

Start working at 2005, only take big money makers. Most samples are from podium winners anyway. Take big classics podiums, and those after rest days of GC's. They'll know where to look, to get the highest amount of positives.
If the deal is to scratch all results after the positive, they only need one or 2 samples per big rider, from 2005 or 2006. No need to even look at recent samples. Except when a second positive of the same violation, say, 3 years later, is enough for a lifetime ban. Some young riders could see their 2010 sample checked after the 2006 came back positive. Saves them a lot of training miles. You knew the rules, this is how the game is played.

I agree that this is how it should be done. To me the problem is not so much the number of tests or costs per test but rather legal costs that will certainly go through the roof if big names decide to fight all the way.

Does CAS award costs against a losing party?

 

[Cloxxki]

I agree that this is how it should be done. To me the problem is not so much the number of tests or costs per test but rather legal costs that will certainly go through the roof if big names decide to fight all the way.

Does CAS award costs against a losing party?

All tests simultaniously bought to light. Riders with similar results (it's one test) can join forces, get one expensive lawyer. WADA etc have their own. One case, dozens of implicated top tier riders.

 

[scribe]

The protocol is to develop the test, certify it so that it known to the riders, then implement it at which time the riders can choose to continue to use at their peril.

While retro-testing sounds good, it would introduce quite a bit of advese chaos.

 

[Tubeless]

you're on the right track but your volumetric numbers/estimates should be brought down by 20-30% due loss of function during blood storage (a complex subject deserving it's own thread) after maximum practical storage period of 5 weeks (i'm implying glycerol-nitrogen blood treatment was not applied).

hence, blood passport would miss it since most validation studies were done under the assumption that at least one unit was necessary to improve performance.

otoh, micro infusion/transfusion greatly increases risk factor for an athlete willing to gamble - each 'micro session' (withdrawal/infusion etc) has to increase in frequency exposing the rider to making mistakes or becoming a victim of an unannounced surprise testing.

True, this article suggests that dopers must take into account a 25% "discount" with transfused blood:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851210/

In fact, 25% of the cell components are removed from the recipient’s circulation within 24 hours of transfusion]

Here's a new "anaerobic" blood storage method nearing commercial availability that will extend the shelf-life of refrigerated blood by 50-100% and will "sigificantly" increase the survival of red blood cells post-transfusion:

http://www.innovation-america.org/extending-shelf-life-donated-blood

We should note that we're guessing the actual volume of blood withdrawn / transfused with this new micro-dosing strategy. The old standard used to be 450ml. The biological passport-adjusted new amount is likely calculated to be as large as possible to not trigger any of the limit values for the parameters being tracked.

To adjust my calculation to the 25% loss of red blood cells, you'd need to transfuse approximately 200ml blood to get a 3% boost in the blood's ability to carry oxygen. A 150ml bag gets you approx. 2% uplift which is still significant.

As a side note, since the storage of blood requires only refrigeration (temp recommendation is +4C), not freezing, would there be any reason not to switch to using glass containers? That's how blood used to be stored back in the 1950's before plastic bags were invented - to replace "breakable" glass bottles. The plasticizer test may end up serving a short useful time span since a workaround is already known...

 

[Aguirre]

These guys will never stop. You win a race and you're fair game for them.

TFF is really getting pathetic. No Lance to pick on so he jumps ship. But he is American...enough said. As I said, get them all or don't bother.

Contador overweight and underpowered! A joke gone horribly afoul. Seriously, that is the best people can come up with. If you believe that you are truly an idiot. Take clenbuterol to lose a pound! He didn't do so well at the Dauphine!

Think of it this way. Who watched the ToC? The Ardennes classics? All the big events up to the TdF? How did Andy Schleck go in comparison to Contador? If I were to show a person with no knowledge of cycling this years ToC footage and ask them to point out which rider came second in the TdF, nobody would pick Schleck. Why is that? If someone is banking blood and not having to perform at every race, just for the TdF, he would be candidate no.1. Oh, he's the next in sight for next year!

Good luck guys with the BS and half truths. Contador is just about the best performer year in and year out for 4 years now. Either way, doping aside, he sure has a lot of talent to back it. Lance didn't race at all. Those of us who were here for the good parts/times of the Clinic know why! AC sure is impressive despite all those blood withdrawals. You'd think if they were so demanding, he'd race less frequently and as hard...like perhaps Andy Schleck. You want to know why the Clinic turned into a cesspool of crap and all the good poster left or rarely post. It's because of you. This forum is nowhere near as informative or as logical as it was a year ago. This time last year it started decaying. Too much ****ing and moaning. Always wanting it one way (yours) and not looking at the whole picture. Some people here possess circular logic. You're trapped by your own beliefs. Boring, uncreative and unreasonable people is what you are.

you don't get my point, I was being ironical

I defend Contador from the crap of this forum