Teams & Riders Bahrain

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Well no idea, but tt looked way more fueled, wouldnt you say?
Also no idea if it is new stuff,of course.
hm, dont know but give him the same TT and he will destroy everybody again; dont know if its fueled or not.
Also I dont buy there are just single riders on the team that are doping, its entire team or nobody; its damn difficult to hide that from team mates
 
I don't agree. Riders will have plenty of opportunities for alone time with team staff and staff will be able to sound out who are most amenable to experimentation. It just seems Bahrain potentially have a lot of folk sticking their hand up at the same time whereas other teams have more individual fluctuations.
 
I don't agree. Riders will have plenty of opportunities for alone time with team staff and staff will be able to sound out who are most amenable to experimentation. It just seems Bahrain potentially have a lot of folk sticking their hand up at the same time whereas other teams have more individual fluctuations.
There are at least a few scenarios:
  • private doping on rider's demand (the most risky, but it's sometimes necessary to secure e.g. a new contract - like random guys getting caught during the Giro)
  • special treatment for team leader/super domestic aka " budgetary doping" ( it can be a case when team leader has very little or no backup - I would place Pog from last year here )
  • full-flanged doping program for the whole team + special program for the leaders (US Postal, Ineos, JV, Bahrain)
 
I don't agree. Riders will have plenty of opportunities for alone time with team staff and staff will be able to sound out who are most amenable to experimentation. It just seems Bahrain potentially have a lot of folk sticking their hand up at the same time whereas other teams have more individual fluctuations.
There are at least a few scenarios:
  • private doping on rider's demand (the most risky, but it's sometimes necessary to secure e.g. a new contract - like random guys getting caught during the Giro)
  • special treatment for team leader/super domestic aka " budgetary doping" ( it can be a case when team leader has very little or no backup - I would place Pog from last year here )
  • full-flanged doping program for the whole team + special program for the leaders (US Postal, Ineos, JV, Bahrain)
Wasnt Aru to be the leader of UAE in last years tour.... I mean if Pog was on something I am sure Aru would be also.
 
Wasnt Aru to be the leader of UAE in last years tour.... I mean if Pog was on something I am sure Aru would be also.
Aru is finished, investment in doping for him isn't justified. It's expensive and/or risky apparently.

Pogs ITT result suggests that this special treatment was prepared long before TdF. He was almost distanced 2/3 days before by Roglic. And he smashed doped competition going uphill. I mean it's at least blood bag we are talking about in this example. Hard to think his team was not aware of such procedure in the middle of the race.
 
Well with this argument, then Pogacar overdid it. Van Aert overdid it. Fuglsang overdid it. Everyone overdid it.
I am not sure what you are trying to say. I am not inside their inner world so I cannot tell you what they are doing. We only have their performances, the history of known doped performances, the history of doping, name of the coaches and directors and from that we draw conclusions. After all this is the clinic and we can only speculate so much. If you don't like the news, the vocabulary and any of what we are saying you don't have to post here you know!

As for my theory, Covid times have allowed a lot of riders to overdo the doping, especially during out of competition. As to the details of how they do it, how do I know that????
As for the history of doping, books, trial declarations, confessions, etc. we know that out of competition tests are huge for the control of doping. We also know that some riders are good responders and others not so much. Depends on their muscle mass, their genetic build, blood parameters, and other physiologic parameters that I wouldn't know. And yes, I think many riders are over doing it. But thanks to Pogi, Wout, Roglic, etc., there is indication that many are trying to get away with it. Recently I see that Lopez, Bahrain, Astana and others trying to catch up as well. It is only natural that the other teams are just not going to sit there and watch how few teams demolish them. We saw in the 90's how the teams started reacting to Indurain's and Chiapucci's performances. I don't want to continue this. I think I have said enough for the reasonable reader.

Thanks.
 
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Roglic kind of happened so fast and came out of nowhere that it only really is dawning on me. The likelihood of a guy who bought his first road bike a few years before he hit the WT and started winning...

Yeah, maybe his VO2 is off-the-charts. But, hard to believe it. Played a lot of other sports before getting into cycling, and pretty much unheard of for a person to take to something so quickly. Yeah, you can be good. But probably not great that fast. Most of the best started playing as a kid. Look at ice hockey...how many NHLers took it up at 18? Most started skating at 2 or something.
 
Roglic kind of happened so fast and came out of nowhere that it only really is dawning on me. The likelihood of a guy who bought his first road bike a few years before he hit the WT and started winning...

Yeah, maybe his VO2 is off-the-charts. But, hard to believe it. Played a lot of other sports before getting into cycling, and pretty much unheard of for a person to take to something so quickly. Yeah, you can be good. But probably not great that fast. Most of the best started playing as a kid. Look at ice hockey...how many NHLers took it up at 18? Most started skating at 2 or something.
Yet ironically despite his status as a late arrival to the WT, Roglic has had a very linear progression with incremental leaps year after year. It started with winning TT's in 2016, then stage hunting difficult mountain stages in 2017, then winning one week races & riding for the GC itself in 2018 Tour, then aiming for a GC win in 2019 (in the Giro & Vuelta first), then an attempt to win the Tour last year & here he is again this year. Over this time, he has developed several traits (including his punch sprint) & a never-quit attitude. All in the same team (i.e. Jumbo didn't suddenly turn Roglic into a Dragon Ball Z character, no, it took time & lots of work).

PED's notwithstanding, it just makes the whole journey & story far easier to stomach & support (for even the most cynical cycling fans who "know" what sort of pharmaceutical stuff these guys have always done & still do today behind the scenes), i.e. class, work, progression & reaching the highest standard over time as a result of a higher natural ability than the rest (or at least, a severe work ethic & obsession with details & self-discipline). I think that's a real long way from what we just witnessed with Bahrain tbh (i.e. a random rider with one or two results eons ago who suddenly blows everyone to pieces & climbs like 1995 Indurain because he apparently went on a sudden diet).
 
Roglic kind of happened so fast and came out of nowhere that it only really is dawning on me. The likelihood of a guy who bought his first road bike a few years before he hit the WT and started winning...

Yeah, maybe his VO2 is off-the-charts. But, hard to believe it. Played a lot of other sports before getting into cycling, and pretty much unheard of for a person to take to something so quickly. Yeah, you can be good. But probably not great that fast. Most of the best started playing as a kid. Look at ice hockey...how many NHLers took it up at 18? Most started skating at 2 or something.
tell that to Remco fans,same story; also not true he came out of nowhere, his progression is very linear; you dont really need skill to be a bike racer so the comparison with hockey in not on point, I also think his endurance problems are the result of him getting late in to the sport.
BTW his Vo2 max is off the charts, thats the only reason he got the first contract and was than signed by Jumbo, nobody took him seriously until he got tested
 
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Yet ironically despite his status as a late arrival to the WT, Roglic has had a very linear progression with incremental leaps year after year. It started with winning TT's in 2016, then stage hunting difficult mountain stages in 2017, then winning one week races & riding for the GC itself in 2018 Tour, then aiming for a GC win in 2019 (in the Giro & Vuelta first), then an attempt to win the Tour last year & here he is again this year. Over this time, he has developed several traits (including his punch sprint) & a never-quit attitude. All in the same team (i.e. Jumbo didn't suddenly turn Roglic into a Dragon Ball Z character, no, it took time & lots of work).

PED's notwithstanding, it just makes the whole journey & story far easier to stomach & support (for even the most cynical cycling fans who "know" what sort of pharmaceutical stuff these guys have always done & still do today behind the scenes), i.e. class, work, progression & reaching the highest standard over time as a result of a higher natural ability than the rest (or at least, a severe work ethic & obsession with details & self-discipline). I think that's a real long way from what we just witnessed with Bahrain tbh (i.e. a random rider with one or two results eons ago who suddenly blows everyone to pieces & climbs like 1995 Indurain because he apparently went on a sudden diet).
^ This. I would add that PR's strengths seem to be fairly consistent. Again, this does not suggest he is not doping, because let's be real here. But it is also not some of the more thermonuclear and counterintuitive ridiculousness we've seen. Bahrain is going full UAE
 
Ice hockey is also a skill sport. I wouldn't use it as a comparison.
Fair enough and point taken. However, this isn't riding a bike on a trainer indoors. Or even running in a line on a track.

Multi-day/week racing, outside, variable road/weather conditions, 100+ people, numerous teams with differing goals, break aways, new routes and new parcours.

Agreed, a lot more going on with any and all "ball sports," but there is plenty more going on than just a fitness test when racing GTs at the pro level. If it was just about fitness, your solid triathletes would be out there snatching up wins at kermesses in Belgium.

And just look at some of the guys who are top-level, but don't win that often. I'd say there is more going on than just fitness (PEDs or not) in pro cycling.
 
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tell that to Remco fans,same story; also not true he came out of nowhere, his progression is very linear; you dont really need skill to be a bike racer so the comparison with hockey in not on point, I also think his endurance problems are the result of him getting late in to the sport.
BTW his Vo2 max is off the charts, thats the only reason he got the first contract and was than signed by Jumbo, nobody took him seriously until he got tested
Just explained in my previous post, but I don't think "you don't need skill to be a bike racer" is really a valid argument.

You sure do. Yes, not as much as a team sport with a ball, or a puck. I'd cite Sagan's mtb venture in the Olympics. If you DON'T need skill, why didn't he win that race? If it's just about watts and power, the guy has plenty.

Pro road racing isn't riding on a trainer in a room with no wind, no peloton, no potholes, no descents, no road signs, no cliff edges, no accelerations, no team tactics, no break away, no thunderstorms.
 
Fair enough and point taken. However, this isn't riding a bike on a trainer indoors. Or even running in a line on a track.

Multi-day/week racing, outside, variable road/weather conditions, 100+ people, numerous teams with differing goals, break aways, new routes and new parcours.

Agreed, a lot more going on with any and all "ball sports," but there is plenty more going on than just a fitness test when racing GTs at the pro level. If it was just about fitness, your solid triathletes would be out there snatching up wins at kermesses in Belgium.

And just look at some of the guys who are top-level, but don't win that often. I'd say there is more going on than just fitness (PEDs or not) and pro cycling.
In my eyes road cycling is a sport that doesn't necessarily require that much skill in order to become a pro or even world tour pro. That's the difference between cycling and most other sports which you need to take up before you are ten, eight, or six. If you have a great physiology, some good balance and reaction times, you can compete. However, winning races, and winning races regularly, is something else.
To do that real skill, meaning automatisms in your reactions, behaviour, coordination, is incredibly helpful, up to necessary, and such automatisms can only be gained in your younger years.
I would still differentiate between several skills on the bike, though - I think to be able to balance your bike in almost every situation is something you cannot learn in your mid-twenties. It's partly a question of inherited coordination and partly, and mostly, training at young age.
On the other hand improving your descending skills by a lot seems pretty possible, because it's in addition to natural skill very much, I think, a question of getting used to it, a mental thing, and a cognitive thing - learn how to find the best line.
Riding and behaving best in a peloton, positioning, is also something you can still learn later on, but it is way easier if you have done it for many years in your youth.

In comparison to many other sports cycling doesn't require the same amount of technical skill. You can start it in your late teens or early twenties if you have some good basic coordination and such. But we often make the mistake to see it as a sport that is only defined by your physiological abilities, which it just isn't.
 
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Good points, BlueRoads.

And just to reiterate, I brought ice hockey in while discussing Roglic. He's not just some high-level domestique, not at all.

I do think it requires some very serious skills to win a GT, something beyond just cardio strength and likely something that takes many years to acquire. That was my main point...it's not very likely that you can get to the highest levels in a sport, even mostly a cardio one, when you pick it up late in life/a few years before you're at the top. Not when 85% of the pack has been doing it for many, many years.
 
Just explained in my previous post, but I don't think "you don't need skill to be a bike racer" is really a valid argument.

You sure do. Yes, not as much as a team sport with a ball, or a puck. I'd cite Sagan's mtb venture in the Olympics. If you DON'T need skill, why didn't he win that race? If it's just about watts and power, the guy has plenty.

Pro road racing isn't riding on a trainer in a room with no wind, no peloton, no potholes, no descents, no road signs, no cliff edges, no accelerations, no team tactics, no break away, no thunderstorms.
I guess thats the reason roglic crashes often but other than that not much skill needed; If I remember correctly Sagan had many flats in that race
 
Good points, BlueRoads.

And just to reiterate, I brought ice hockey in while discussing Roglic. He's not just some high-level domestique, not at all.

I do think it requires some very serious skills to win a GT, something beyond just cardio strength and likely something that takes many years to acquire. That was my main point...it's not very likely that you can get to the highest levels in a sport, even mostly a cardio one, when you pick it up late in life/a few years before you're at the top. Not when 85% of the pack has been doing it for many, many years.
its not like Roglic was sitting on the couch until he bought the bike, he was an elite athlete
 

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