Baron Coe, cleans?

[armchairclimber]

Re:

Coe clean? That's about as likely as my winning the Tour. With the new report on Russian doping it would be really interesting if people questioned how he managed to beat them last time...

Viren method.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Coe clean? That's about as likely as my winning the Tour. With the new report on Russian doping it would be really interesting if people questioned how he managed to beat them last time...

Viren method.

The Russians didn't know about his methods?

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

Coe clean? That's about as likely as my winning the Tour. With the new report on Russian doping it would be really interesting if people questioned how he managed to beat them last time...

Viren method.

The Russians didn't know about his methods?

Well you do have to factor in that Coe was also exceptionally talented and had, for the time, a really first class training regime. Although his V02 Max was only around the 72 mark, his vV02 max was exceptional....ie. his efficiency and also his ability to tolerate lactate were outstanding. I don't like the fella at all but I admired him as an athlete tremendously. Also, his father and David Martin's book is still, to my mind, the best coaching guide ever written for middle distance and endurance athletes.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Coe clean? That's about as likely as my winning the Tour. With the new report on Russian doping it would be really interesting if people questioned how he managed to beat them last time...

Viren method.

The Russians didn't know about his methods?

Well you do have to factor in that Coe was also exceptionally talented and had, for the time, a really first class training regime. Although his V02 Max was only around the 72 mark, his vV02 max was exceptional....ie. his efficiency and also his ability to tolerate lactate were outstanding. I don't like the fella at all but I admired him as an athlete tremendously. Also, his father and David Martin's book is still, to my mind, the best coaching guide ever written for middle distance and endurance athletes.

I really don't know enough to play any kind of devils advocate, but I do find it strange that we had Coe, Ovett, Cram and Black (I know Cram is a little younger and Black younger still, have I missed anyone?) who were so good in a time when we know doping was massively prevalent and state-funded in the East and West. I think Coe and Ovett miss the blood doping cut-off just but the other two don't and they all fall in that window of the Drugs Arms Race. I find it very hard to believe any of them are clean, no matter how good they really were.

 

[armchairclimber]

That's a whole different subject and not entirely on topic. Things were different then .... being a class middle or long distance runner was pretty glamorous....apart from anything else because Brits (along with Kiwis and Yanks) could actually win.... or even finish 1,2,3 in major champs. This is before EPO and also before African athletes began competing in numbers. Training was also, I believe, better then (a whole other massive subject not even for CN, let alone this sub-forum). The training was though, brutally hard .... for 800/1500 runners it was close to unbearable. You actually struggle to get young athletes to push themselves that hard these days.
Autologous blood doping was being practiced though ... and most likely not just by "foreigners". As it happens I believe Ovett and Cram were clean.

 

[buckle]

I seem to recall Cram was a big star at 17. Ovett never managed 1:43 over 8 so his 15s are remarkable for that reason. Coe was a freak and was an international class 4 runner but highly suspicious all the same.

 

[the sceptic]

But he never saw any doping or corruption of course

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Coe clean? That's about as likely as my winning the Tour. With the new report on Russian doping it would be really interesting if people questioned how he managed to beat them last time...

Viren method.

The Russians didn't know about his methods?

Well you do have to factor in that Coe was also exceptionally talented and had, for the time, a really first class training regime. Although his V02 Max was only around the 72 mark, his vV02 max was exceptional....ie. his efficiency and also his ability to tolerate lactate were outstanding. I don't like the fella at all but I admired him as an athlete tremendously. Also, his father and David Martin's book is still, to my mind, the best coaching guide ever written for middle distance and endurance athletes.

You know where this "He trains better and harder than anyone else" talk often goes...

 

[The Hitch]

Its a bit strange because armchairclimber said I was personally attacking him when I said he did not understand the basics of how doping works and hadn't read anything on its history, but how else are we supposed to react when someone comes into the clinic in 2015 to lecture us that an athlete was clean because they had better training methods.

We had 15 years of Armstrong and everyone else telling us that the entire generation was fast purely because of training methods, and anyone who actually believed them ended up getting proven wrong and wisening up 3 years ago.

How the hell is anyone supposed to take such an arguement seriously in 2015? So everyone else who said it was wrong but Coe just happens to be the exception who was right?

Ok lets entertain that for 2 seconds. Who is Coe? Oh that's right the politician aparatchik who's been caught lying about half a dozen times in the last 2 days, who is a close friend of some of the most corrupt people in sport and has in 3 decades at the top not taken a single meaningful action towards combating doping. Who's reaction to hearing about mass cheating in the sport was to try to ignore it and then to declare war on the scientists who brought it to him?

That, we are supposed to believe, is the one guy who legitimately was clean and won due to superior training methods, when everyone else who says this nonesence was a liar?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

That's a whole different subject and not entirely on topic. Things were different then .... being a class middle or long distance runner was pretty glamorous....apart from anything else because Brits (along with Kiwis and Yanks) could actually win.... or even finish 1,2,3 in major champs. This is before EPO and also before African athletes began competing in numbers. Training was also, I believe, better then (a whole other massive subject not even for CN, let alone this sub-forum). The training was though, brutally hard .... for 800/1500 runners it was close to unbearable. You actually struggle to get young athletes to push themselves that hard these days.
Autologous blood doping was being practiced though ... and most likely not just by "foreigners". As it happens I believe Ovett and Cram were clean.

I don't really know where you are going with all this but - I do remember the training being tough and a bit unbearable and that was um back in the day. Mid 80's to early 90's. Much of the comp was from the UK and a few Kiwis. This was not middle distance but long distance. Still there was talk about a few things along with ABD back in the day.

Never tried it maybe I should got myself on a good program and made some marginal gains.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

That, we are supposed to believe, is the one guy who legitimately was clean and won due to superior training methods, when everyone else who says this nonesence was a liar?

In the previously linked clip, it's really worth noting Coe's facial reaction when Snow refers to him as, "a great, clean runner."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBg6-_wrsOQ&t=4m10s

It's almost as if he's not even sure what to make of that label.

 

[blackcat]

I seem to recall Cram was a big star at 17. Ovett never managed 1:43 over 8 so his 15s are remarkable for that reason. Coe was a freak and was an international class 4 runner but highly suspicious all the same.

but "freak" is relative.

You are going from the "freak" who shows a freakish ability in a small pond in Surrey, to then the worldstage...

where everyone is also off the bell curve and outliers. and the soviet had the talent identification system.

this is the logical fallacy invoked like "Armstrong beating men in triathlon when he is 16". yes, indeed he was. but is that a false insight into talent, when the entire world gets equivalent opportunities to demonstrate their triathlon talents when they are 16yo versus other adult males in Corpus Christi Texas.

They were all freaks and outliers Coe Ovett and Cram. Just like all the Tour de France cyclists are freaks and outliers, and it would have been apparent when they were ripping the legs off adult males when they are 16.

see? but in the Tour, show me a top10 rider who is clean. Show me a TdF winner who won clean. *Lemond does not count.

also FreddyTheFrog is the go-to guy on British PEDs

 

[armchairclimber]

Re:

Its a bit strange because armchairclimber said I was personally attacking him when I said he did not understand the basics of how doping works and hadn't read anything on its history, but how else are we supposed to react when someone comes into the clinic in 2015 to lecture us that an athlete was clean because they had better training methods.

We had 15 years of Armstrong and everyone else telling us that the entire generation was fast purely because of training methods, and anyone who actually believed them ended up getting proven wrong and wisening up 3 years ago.

How the hell is anyone supposed to take such an arguement seriously in 2015? So everyone else who said it was wrong but Coe just happens to be the exception who was right?

Ok lets entertain that for 2 seconds. Who is Coe? Oh that's right the politician aparatchik who's been caught lying about half a dozen times in the last 2 days, who is a close friend of some of the most corrupt people in sport and has in 3 decades at the top not taken a single meaningful action towards combating doping. Who's reaction to hearing about mass cheating in the sport was to try to ignore it and then to declare war on the scientists who brought it to him?

That, we are supposed to believe, is the one guy who legitimately was clean and won due to superior training methods, when everyone else who says this nonesence was a liar?

No Hitch, I said that you were trolling me, when you did, mis-representing my position and putting words into my mouth. Now you are doing it again. If you took the trouble to actually read what I said yesterday (go back a few posts) you will see precisely what I mean. Just lay off with personal stuff... or at least, please take the trouble to read and comprehend what I am actually saying before you launch in with a response.

You could start here, with my first post on this matter yesterday.
"Back to the topic ... the OP question. Probably not.... according to contemporaries I have spoken to". Then perhaps you might apologise.

You don't need to lecture me about Coe. Chair of Fifa's Ethics Committee whilst there was endemic corruption and the handing of the WC to Qatar, resulting in the death of thousands of migrant workers. Paid by doping enablers Nike whilst denying that it is a conflict of interest. Sitting on Diack's shoulder for nigh on a decade whilst his pal took bribes to cover up adverse doping results. I have no time for the man.

 

[Cramps]

Re:

Baron Coe has too many powerful friends and too many pet journalists backing him I'm afraid. Would love it if he had to step down though. In any normal world there would be no excuse for his incompetence.

BE fair now to the Brit press. An athlete like Radcliffe they'll worship and eventually mercilessly destroy. A politician like Coe they're happy to go after. Besides (or maybe because) of Jon Snow, there's a nice assortment of papers of all persuasions coming after Coe

Daily mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-3312502/Lord-Coe-use-peashooter-approach-against-doping-s-time-pistol-make-fresh-start.html

Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/nov/08/sebastian-coe-iaaf-doping-investigation

Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/iaaf-doping-row-lord-coe-must-act-over-lamine-diack-cover-up-claims-or-he-s-just-another-sepp-a6721726.html

 

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

Coe clean? That's about as likely as my winning the Tour. With the new report on Russian doping it would be really interesting if people questioned how he managed to beat them last time...

Viren method.

The Russians didn't know about his methods?

Well you do have to factor in that Coe was also exceptionally talented and had, for the time, a really first class training regime. Although his V02 Max was only around the 72 mark, his vV02 max was exceptional....ie. his efficiency and also his ability to tolerate lactate were outstanding. I don't like the fella at all but I admired him as an athlete tremendously. Also, his father and David Martin's book is still, to my mind, the best coaching guide ever written for middle distance and endurance athletes.

You know where this "He trains better and harder than anyone else" talk often goes...

To be fair, this was the case in different sports at different times.

 

[The Carrot]

Of course he's dodgy as! You're no good to anyone in an organisation like the IAAF if you're 'whiter than white', organisations like that work on the principle that people have dirt on each other and that way nobody's ever gonna rat on someone else for fear of the same thing happening back. I think that's called Mutually Assured Destruction MAD.

 

[Benotti69]

What Coe said of is predecssor

https://twitter.com/ringsau/status/664202066139607040

 

[Benotti69]

Sebastian Coe's final track race in Britain was fixed, according to a runner who says he accepted a payment of about $10,000 to lose the competition.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13086490.Seb_Coe_s_last_race_was_fixed_so_he_could_win__says_runner_who_took__10_000_to_lose/

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Coe clean? That's about as likely as my winning the Tour. With the new report on Russian doping it would be really interesting if people questioned how he managed to beat them last time...

Viren method.

The Russians didn't know about his methods?

Well you do have to factor in that Coe was also exceptionally talented and had, for the time, a really first class training regime. Although his V02 Max was only around the 72 mark, his vV02 max was exceptional....ie. his efficiency and also his ability to tolerate lactate were outstanding. I don't like the fella at all but I admired him as an athlete tremendously. Also, his father and David Martin's book is still, to my mind, the best coaching guide ever written for middle distance and endurance athletes.

....yup, it most certainly was....

Cheers

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

Sebastian Coe's final track race in Britain was fixed, according to a runner who says he accepted a payment of about $10,000 to lose the competition.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13086490.Seb_Coe_s_last_race_was_fixed_so_he_could_win__says_runner_who_took__10_000_to_lose/

It also says Coe wasn't told/aware of any fix going on.
Plus he had a mediocre season ... which doesn't sound like what a doper would have. (cleans)

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Sebastian Coe's final track race in Britain was fixed, according to a runner who says he accepted a payment of about $10,000 to lose the competition.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13086490.Seb_Coe_s_last_race_was_fixed_so_he_could_win__says_runner_who_took__10_000_to_lose/

It also says Coe wasn't told/aware of any fix going on.
Plus he had a mediocre season ... which doesn't sound like what a doper would have. (cleans)

Presumably the lawyers told them not to make any claims they could not substantiate...doesn't mean he didn't know Although to be fair...who care's...its showtime...the crowd wanted a Coe win

 

[vedrafjord]

Surely this map is relevant too - the British athletics golden age happened in an era of large scale boycotts and correspondingly weakened fields. As well as the America-led 1980 boycott and the 1984 Soviet retaliation, most of Africa boycotted the 1976 Olympics over apartheid and the presence of New Zealand (who were South Africa's sporting link to the outside world).

I mean, we know he was on steroids but there's no way these days that the 100 metres would be won by a white Scottish guy no matter what he was taking, the way Allen Wells won it in 1980 with a time of only 10.26s.

In middle distance running, both Kenya and Ethiopia each missed two of three Olympics in the 76-84 period, and their production lines for identifying and developing talent were in early days at this time, for example Br. Colm O'Connell moved to Kenya in 1976 and the Iten conveyor belt started delivering gold medals and marathon Majors in a big way from around 1988 on.

 

[armchairclimber]

Re:

Surely this map is relevant too - the British athletics golden age happened in an era of large scale boycotts and correspondingly weakened fields. As well as the America-led 1980 boycott and the 1984 Soviet retaliation, most of Africa boycotted the 1976 Olympics over apartheid and the presence of New Zealand (who were South Africa's sporting link to the outside world).

I mean, we know he was on steroids but there's no way these days that the 100 metres would be won by a white Scottish guy no matter what he was taking, the way Allen Wells won it in 1980 with a time of only 10.26s.

In middle distance running, both Kenya and Ethiopia each missed two of three Olympics in the 76-84 period, and their production lines for identifying and developing talent were in early days at this time, for example Br. Colm O'Connell moved to Kenya in 1976 and the Iten conveyor belt started delivering gold medals and marathon Majors in a big way from around 1988 on.

Yup. However, that doesn't alter the fact that Coe ran faster than anyone else managed over 800 metres for 16 years. Few people got close. These days mind ... to bear out what I was saying about our talentID/coaching etc, GB struggles to find runners who can break 1.44

 

[vedrafjord]

Sorry, I meant to reply to the more general claim that the early 80's was a golden age for British athletics... yes, Coe's 800m time was insane and is still third fastest of all time I think.

 

[ray j willings]

He used to run uphill with his dad timing him.
It's the forgotten template of our to run faster.