Basso suggests Sky doping? Likens them to Armstrong/USPS

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Jun 30, 2012
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Chef_Vodnik said:
Exactly.
There's a "fair" playing field where everyone's cheating a tiny bit "because let's face it - everyone does so I'd be stupid not to" and this where it's "holy smokes is it '99 all over again? Gotta warn the people that Y2K is much ado about nothing"

Brailsford in 2010 (quoted in Richard Moore's Sky book):

"And you have to believe that it's possible to win the Tour clean...I believe the guys at that level are going right up to the line, like everyone else...[/I]

I don't believe there is a systematic doping programme in a team which is allowing those guys to perform that well. But I certainly think they go right up to the line"

That can be read in several ways, including, as the author (who is on the whole pro Sky) implies, an invitation to explore the grey area leading up the the 'line' - which could be a fertile source of marginal gains.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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mastersracer said:
No, because Indurain has been given a pass. He is a legend who is still loved. The media do not raise him name when the doping accusations of the EPO era are raised, in part because Indurain was always humble and retired to live a quiet life.

You can throw Armstrong under the bus for obvious reasons these days, and European fans never liked him in the first place. How many riders raise Indurain's name re doping?

Absolutely. Here's another problem with the Indurain example. The one time he or the whole Banesto team was accused of having anything to do with doping was when Thomas Davey dared to open his mouth. The lesson learned is, no one goes after the sacred cow.

If my memory is correct, he then recanted his story and was basically never heard from again. The cycling version of purgatory.

And herein lies the problem. There have been more victims of doping from Davey's side than of actual dopers getting caught. Anyone who says anything will get marginalized out of existence. The teams know it, the riders know it, everyone knows it.

This is why even Ullrich, who many people thought would tell all after the coast was clear, made a weak and impotent remark about his doping saying if he could go back and do things differently, he would and left it at that. So we are left with nothing but conjecture because these guys just won't speak up and never will.

Andy Hampsten, who rode with Banesto one year before returning to the states for a last hurrah on a domestic team, was brought into the team for one reason only-to help Indurain in the mountains at the Tour.

He didn't even make the Tour team. He never gave a reason why, but umor has always been because he wasn't down with the team-wide doping regimen.

And Hampsten will take that story to the grave with him. In a sense I don't blame anyone who isn't like Armstrong, who has to make a living after their cycling days are over and want to remain affiliated with the sport, but must keep quiet to do so.

Whether it's selling rebranded bike frames like Hampsten or a cycling clothing line with a factory in a third-world country like Hincapie, if you mess with the sacred cow you get the horn.

Just ask Frankie Andreu, who can't seem to make a move within cycling without getting gored by Armstrong's Texas Longhorn. But in another sense guys like Hampsten and Vaughters are an integral part of the problem. Vaughters has always spoken just as vaguely about doping as anyone else, saying that his team is dedicated to riding clena without ever giving any firm details on what riding dirty entails.

So we are left to wonder where the goalposts are and how far they have shifted and why. The only ones who have actually said anything are people with absolutely nothing to lose-Landis and Hamilton. Is it obligatory to go through the marginalization program that awaits ex-cyclists who get chucked out the back before any of them speak honestly?

I believe the answer is yes. Basso, making veiled references about how good Sky is going means nothing. The biggest indictment of Sky is their irresponsible hiring of that team doctor who was with Rabobank all those years. What Basso has to say about Wiggo and Froome is just sour grapes from a guy who used to be one of the cats who dictated te pace on the mountains and now doesn't like it when the pace is being dictated to HIM. That is all. He has no proof of anything untowards going on at Sky whatsoever.

If his only proof is that he can't attack them, well who the hell told him to ride the Giro this year? The more director sportifs see their top riders fail at the Tour because of this, the more they make the same mistake year after year.
 
May 5, 2009
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hrotha said:
The lines. Read between them.

It's not the first time we hear comments like these after literally unbelievable performances.

I really don't know. I think, sometimes, we clinic freaks are maybe a bit too much looking for stuff like this and reading too much between the lines.

Honestly, I am very critical, but think this might be one of the cleanest Tours in recent years (based on those VAM and W/k circulating about the few hard climbs).

Basso just describes the dominance and control and how useless it is to attack. It's just a waste of energy, there's nothing you can do against the Sky train. That's my take.

Also considering that Ivan is a guy who never confessed he doped, I don't think he goes out on a wire by trying to hint at it or finger pointing.

In the meantime I found the Wiggo quote, where he substantially says the same like Basso says, just in another form and wording:

"I knew I was dictating the pace and that I wanted to keep it high threshold and not go too much into the red and I knew that if someone wanted to attack off that pace they’d have to be going quite a bit more, which I know is not really sustainable if we’re riding at 470 to 480 Watts. Someone is going to have to go a lot harder to sustain that. As long as we gauge it like that I knew we’d be alright."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-and-sky-surprised-at-stage-7-damage

Interestingly though, that the Watt figures have quite a discrepancy (Basso talking 420W, Wiggo 470/80), but they were probably speaking after different stages.

Sky has just learned from US Postal what it's all about. Having at least two riders who could be captain/leader at any other team and another two strong climbing guys and control the race at a pace, that nobody can go away without consistently going into the red.
 
Jun 7, 2011
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la.margna said:
I really don't know. I think, sometimes, we clinic freaks are maybe a bit too much looking for stuff like this and reading too much between the lines.

Honestly, I am very critical, but think this might be one of the cleanest Tours in recent years (based on those VAM and W/k circulating about the few hard climbs).

Basso just describes the dominance and control and how useless it is to attack. It's just a waste of energy, there's nothing you can do against the Sky train. That's my take.

Also considering that Ivan is a guy who never confessed he doped, I don't think he goes out on a wire by trying to hint at it or finger pointing.

In the meantime I found the Wiggo quote, where he substantially says the same like Basso says, just in another form and wording:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-and-sky-surprised-at-stage-7-damage

Interestingly though, that the Watt figures have quite a discrepancy (Basso talking 420W, Wiggo 470/80), but they were probably speaking after different stages.

Sky has just learned from US Postal what it's all about. Having at least two riders who could be captain/leader at any other team and another two strong climbing guys and control the race at a pace, that nobody can go away without consistently going into the red.


Good post, I agree with you, i would describe myself as a cynic, but I just feel people are looking for something that is not there.
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
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la.margna said:
I really don't know. I think, sometimes, we clinic freaks are maybe a bit too much looking for stuff like this and reading too much between the lines.

Honestly, I am very critical, but think this might be one of the cleanest Tours in recent years (based on those VAM and W/k circulating about the few hard climbs).

Basso just describes the dominance and control and how useless it is to attack. It's just a waste of energy, there's nothing you can do against the Sky train. That's my take.

Also considering that Ivan is a guy who never confessed he doped, I don't think he goes out on a wire by trying to hint at it or finger pointing.

In the meantime I found the Wiggo quote, where he substantially says the same like Basso says, just in another form and wording:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-and-sky-surprised-at-stage-7-damage

Interestingly though, that the Watt figures have quite a discrepancy (Basso talking 420W, Wiggo 470/80), but they were probably speaking after different stages.

Sky has just learned from US Postal what it's all about. Having at least two riders who could be captain/leader at any other team and another two strong climbing guys and control the race at a pace, that nobody can go away without consistently going into the red.

Basso was talking about Porte not Wiggo.
 
May 5, 2009
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thehog said:
Basso was talking about Porte not Wiggo.

In the quoted instance too, Wiggo was also talking about his guys setting the pace (incl. Richie) and not himself (which is probably not clear just from my excerpted quote), but reading the entire article and having watched the race.

btw, how many km apart from ITT was Wiggo in front? 3km? :D
 
Dec 27, 2010
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Maxiton said:
If a high percentage of fans, and even French farmers think it's obvious

523815_397041713678547_1905900992_n.jpg


then how could we say they're not "over doing" it?

When Phil Liggett saw that and started talking about how Sky were drilling it like real thoroughbreds I nearly choked on my dinner.
 
Jul 16, 2009
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hrotha said:
I don't think this kind of veiled messages, like the one we got from Evans ("they're all in the form of their lives"), is meant to be taken like that. Even dopers have standards, because in their mind they're not cheating on everyone. If you overdo it, *then* you're cheating, you're going beyond what the sport requires, you're making the rest of them look like fools and you become a liability because you're risking getting caught, which would be a disaster for everyone in the peloton (or you have the UCI on your side, which is even worse).


This

Post of the week
 
Aug 1, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
This is worth repeating:

The bio-passport system is an elaborate system whose purpose is to protect riders from killing themselves. That's it. It is working exactly as designed.

I don't see how in that respect it's any better than the 50% hematocrit rule, and I don't believe for a second that is the publicly pronounced purposes.

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI1/layout.asp?MenuId=MTUzNDc&LangId=1

clearly describes it about being part of the anti-doping program, and designed to detect "illegal methods", and says

The UCI anti-doping programme has two objectives:

get rid of cheats (doping detection)

dissuade riders from resorting to doping (education, communication, firm sanctions, biological passport).

The word "health" doesn't appear. I don't think even the UCI internally pretends the passport is a health measure. It may or may not be effective and/or a fig-leaf of plausible deniability.

-dB
 
May 14, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
I don't see anything that would inspire such change. No one is talking about the failed institution that is the UCI and their suppressed positives. That USADA letter left so much UCI blood in the water and yet there's not a single peep about its problems. It's Entertainment Wrestling.

I guess I was thinking that the public barbequing of Armstrong and associates might put the fear of Jeebus into cycling, not so much because of Armstrong and his fate but because of the sponsor flight it will create, as well as the possible embarrassment to Amaury family.

What you and others don't like is the game is gone. An entertainment equivalent is the "willing suspension of disbelief" has been broken. Pro cyclists may as well be in front of a bluescreen because it's that scripted.
Yes, I'm beginning to see that. Which makes "entertainment wrestling" more than just a metaphor. I think I'm going to develop an interest in jai-alai, or some other obscure sport.

143-JaiAlaiTime.jpg
 
Jul 6, 2012
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Maxiton said:
Yep, here it comes. Next year's Tour will be professional wrestling on wheels, unless something changes. (Que Travis Tygart.)

Well AC will be back, so...
 
Jul 14, 2012
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Now I know a number of you are horrified by the influx of Sky fanboys (is there a more hideous phrase) but many have arrived because of forums/messageboards etc on mainstream websites have mentioned the sheer lunacy of this forum, and the clinic in particular. Hey who wouldn't wander over? And who wouldn't take umbrage at the vile comments from keyboard warriors on here.

And this particular thread takes the absolute biscuit for delusional conspiracy theorism, almost to the point of mental illness. In a way chapeau to all of you for your ability to consistently manufacture stories out of something that simply does not exist, that is a skill in itself. And never have I seen such adeptness when it comes to the skilled art of straw grasping.

But please continue, the potent mix of quack doctors, pseudo sciencists, self important windbags, bitter ex professionals and the aforementioned fanboys (whatever that means) make for essential daily viewing.
 
Apr 17, 2009
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domination said:
the sheer lunacy of this forum .. vile comments .. delusional conspiracy theorism, almost to the point of mental illness ..

Thanks for the ad hominems. Welcome back any time.
 
Sep 15, 2010
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domination said:
Now I know a number of you are horrified by the influx of Sky fanboys (is there a more hideous phrase) but many have arrived because of forums/messageboards etc on mainstream websites have mentioned the sheer lunacy of this forum, and the clinic in particular. Hey who wouldn't wander over? And who wouldn't take umbrage at the vile comments from keyboard warriors on here.

And this particular thread takes the absolute biscuit for delusional conspiracy theorism, almost to the point of mental illness. In a way chapeau to all of you for your ability to consistently manufacture stories out of something that simply does not exist, that is a skill in itself. And never have I seen such adeptness when it comes to the skilled art of straw grasping.

But please continue, the potent mix of quack doctors, pseudo sciencists, self important windbags, bitter ex professionals and the aforementioned fanboys (whatever that means) make for essential daily viewing.

Um. Delusional? Take a peak at the international press regarding the reality of Armstrong.

Someone has to care.

The Clinic, steadfastly managing the manger despite deluded opposition.

.
 
Jun 15, 2010
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Jack (6 ch) said:
Brailsford in 2010 (quoted in Richard Moore's Sky book):

"And you have to believe that it's possible to win the Tour clean...I believe the guys at that level are going right up to the line, like everyone else...[/I]

I don't believe there is a systematic doping programme in a team which is allowing those guys to perform that well. But I certainly think they go right up to the line"

That can be read in several ways, including, as the author (who is on the whole pro Sky) implies, an invitation to explore the grey area leading up the the 'line' - which could be a fertile source of marginal gains.

+1 Thats exactly how I see it.As Greenedge said "The Edge of medicine"
 
Sep 15, 2010
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simo1733 said:
+1 Thats exactly how I see it.As Greenedge said "The Edge of medicine"

i.e. Intellectual doping. They're just smarter than everyone else?

100% Organic.

e.g. warm downs?
 
Jul 14, 2012
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alberto.legstrong said:
I hate to say it but it appears to me that Sky has found a better 'program' and the rest are playing catch up. Basso is aware of it and since he is involved with the same shenanigans what can he do but congratulate them for building a better mousetrap.

It's been asked elsewhere, what is the latest and best program? It looks like someone found a better harder to detect dope. Sorry for those of you who feel they are clean, I think that's fantasy. We can agree to disagree.

Its interesting though that this point has been brought up several times but not answered (or at least I have not seen it answered) How do riders get pass the blood passport knowing that tests can be retrospectively administered.
 
May 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I dont think Basso was speaking to cycling fans who support SkyPostal.

He was talking to the omerta. He was talking to UCI. He was talking to ASO. He was talking to everyone who has omerta knowledge, including the 12 apostles in the clinic and anyone who truly understands cycling.

It may be seen as a warning, that Sky have upped the game and now everyone has to try and follow like what happened after '99.

That's precisely it, isn't it? After Festina the peloton took it easy one year and they got LA. Now it's Sky partying like it's 1999. If the GC result with Wigans and Froome stands, you know we'll see riders taking many more risks in days to come. Which means there'll also be many more positives in the future.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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Nocontest said:
Its interesting though that this point has been brought up several times but not answered (or at least I have not seen it answered) How do riders get pass the blood passport knowing that tests can be retrospectively administered.
Retroactive testing is almost never done. It happened to Thomas Dekker, and... well, I can't think of anyone else. We hear about samples to be retested every now and then, but nothing ever comes out of it. The 2008 Giro samples were going to be retested, looking for CERA, except that they never were. If retroactive testing was truly enforced and it actually scared the riders away from doping, we wouldn't have had cases like Galimzyanov's.

With no retroactive tests to be afraid of, you must remember that things like HGH and many forms of exogen EPO are either undetectable or have a extremely short detection window. Carefully managed blood transfusions are currently undetectable. If you can manipulate your blood values via transfusions, EPO and other stuff so that your passport remains credible but your total blood level increases, you're good to go, and you get that performance boost you want.

As for how exactly Sky would do it: obviously we have no idea. We can only guess. Usually it's not some revolutionary method or product, just a better way of combining the same drugs and methods everyone else is using.
 
Jun 17, 2009
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Maxiton said:
Yes, I'm beginning to see that. Which makes "entertainment wrestling" more than just a metaphor. I think I'm going to develop an interest in jai-alai, or some other obscure sport.

143-JaiAlaiTime.jpg

I don't know about now, but Jai Alai used to be so crooked that the players & owners had to screw their pants on in the morning... Games bought and sold, Mafia hits, you name it. But damn fun to watch and play.

Kind of like cycling.;)
 
Feb 20, 2010
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fishtacos said:
I don't know about now, but Jai Alai used to be so crooked that the players & owners had to screw their pants on in the morning... Games bought and sold, Mafia hits, you name it. But damn fun to watch and play.

Kind of like cycling.;)
That's what you get when your sport is reliant almost totally on betting though. I really don't understand the format of US Jai-Alai either. Too stop-start, hard to tell who's on what team and so on. In Europe, two teams play first-to-35, or first-to-15 in 2 sets. Much easier.
 
Sep 30, 2009
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If Basso's comparison of Sky to USPS was a veiled accusation, does that make Wiggo's comparison of Sky to USPS a veiled confession? :confused: