Best Climber All Things Being Equal

[kingjr]

And this is not speculative? Lemond at least got the VO2 Max to back it up. Give me some of the other riders numbers and we can talk.

How is VO2 Max tested btw?

 

[ciranda]

And of course you didn't post about him always having great physical talent and that he would always be at the top.

No, that didn't happen and I only imagined it.

That's not opinion. Scientists said it about test scores and the other stuff about intelligence and ambition or whatever was obvious for everyone to see.

 

[Walkman]

How is VO2 Max tested btw?

Not sure if you are serious or trying to make a point somehow?

Either way, you can do it in different ways. Running or cycling are the most common I think.

When I did it (running), we did a rather long and hard warm up. I remember asking if we could stop the warm up and continue to the test at one point. Anyway, after the warm up was complete I started running at a somewhat fast pace and then every 30 seconds (might have been 20) the pace would increase and also the treadmill running deck was raised continuously.

 

[Walkman]

i have 50 hematocrit natural and i suck. means shiit
vo2 max means shiit too

lance and marco, guys who fed with pain. that's how they won. it's all about the pain.

Uhm, are you serious?

VO2 Max are essential. Good luck climbing Alpe with a VO2 Max of 70. It doesn't matter how much suffering you can endure. You will never produce the watts needed to climb Alpe in 40 minutes.

You doesn't seem to know what you are talking about.

 

[kingjr]

Either way, you can do it in different ways. Running or cycling are the most common I think.

When I did it (running), we did a rather long and hard warm up. I remember asking if we could stop the warm up and continue to the test at one point. Anyway, after the warm up was complete I started running at a somewhat fast pace and then every 30 seconds (might have been 20) the pace would increase and also the treadmill running deck was raised continuously.

And based on your performance, your VO2Max is determined? Meaning that if you were on PED's the result would be 'better'?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Uhm, are you serious?

VO2 Max are essential. Good luck climbing Alpe with a VO2 Max of 70. It doesn't matter how much suffering you can endure. You will never produce the watts needed to climb Alpe in 40 minutes.

You doesn't seem to know what you are talking about.

Didn't the norwegian young cyclist Svendsen have VO2 max over 95 or something? Doenst mean he will win much

 

[Walkman]

And based on your performance, your VO2Max is determined? Meaning that if you were on PED's the result would be 'better'?

I think so, at least the VO2 Max should be better seeing as you can ventilate more oxygen since you have more red blood cells in your body.

Not sure if doping would effect your lung volume though. But then again, I don't know how important the lung volume is with regards to performance.

 

[kingjr]

Why is it then that some people ask of some cyclists to do a VO2max test to help get an answer to whether their performances are legit or not?

 

[Walkman]

Didn't the norwegian young cyclist Svendsen have VO2 max over 95 or something? Doenst mean he will win much

Well, it's like we use to say when there's a cobble stage at the Tour. You can't win the Tour on such a stage, but you can lose it.

Meaning, you need a high VO2 Max to compete in the peloton, but a high test score won't guarantee you success.

 

[Walkman]

Why is it then that some people ask of some cyclists to do a VO2max test to help get an answer to whether their performances are legit or not?

Good question, I wonder the same thing.

Maybe python, Race Radio or Merckx index can answer this question, they seems to know what they are talking about.

 

[The Hitch]

I couldn't make a list over riders that I've never seen racing really, but of those I've seen and if everyone used Ferrari I would guess something like

1. Pantani




2. Contador
3. Heras
4. Quintana
5. Basso

no vino, nibali, kash or aru

 

[Amazinmets73]

no vino, nibali, kash or aru

I'm not so sure Pantani's better than Contador. I'd love to see Contador at 60%

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

no vino, nibali, kash or aru

Didn't you read my post. "If they used Ferrari". Vino, Nibbles, Kash and Aru would never dope. Ican't even imagine it. So thet are disqualified from the list.

Honestly Hitch. I thought that was obvious

 

[Race Radio]

Why is it then that some people ask of some cyclists to do a VO2max test to help get an answer to whether their performances are legit or not?

Vo2 Max is only one element. Most teams do not even do it anymore. It is a nice number to have but there are 3-4 other measurements that teams look for. These days it seems every big team has some new way of measuring a riders ability, usually focused around lactate and efforts of variable duration depending on the riders focus

A rider can have a super high Vo2 but can't perform after 5 hours of several climbs. Often this is because of their way their body burns fat/sugars and the resulting acid level in their blood. While much of this has been know for a while the large scale adaption is fairly new. Saw an interesting interview with Belkin's nutritionist. His quote was "Train carb low, race cab high". Beyond the weight loss benefits it also trains your body to burn fat instead of sugar.....resulting in less acid. This can be a big benefit on the final climb of a 5 hour race

 

[MonkeyFace]

Vo2 Max is only one element. Most teams do not even do it anymore. It is a nice number to have but there are 3-4 other measurements that teams look for. These days it seems every big team has some new way of measuring a riders ability, usually focused around lactate and efforts of variable duration depending on the riders focus

A rider can have a super high Vo2 but can't perform after 5 hours of several climbs. Often this is because of their way their body burns fat/sugars and the resulting acid level in their blood. While much of this has been know for a while the large scale adaption is fairly new. Saw an interesting interview with Belkin's nutritionist. His quote was "Train carb low, race cab high". Beyond the weight loss benefits it also trains your body to burn fat instead of sugar.....resulting in less acid. This can be a big benefit on the final climb of a 5 hour race

A lot of what I have read leads me to believe that muscle acidosis is a bunk theory that is still held onto because a lot of training methods still hang on it. Not to say that they don't work but the science is wrong.

 

[Race Radio]

A lot of what I have read leads me to believe that muscle acidosis is a bunk theory that is still held onto because a lot of training methods still hang on it. Not to say that they don't work but the science is wrong.

I agree that it is far from exact. Rememeber that Velonew "Article"? What nonsense. While I am far from an expert I think we are only scratching the surface.

What I find funny is that many of the "New" diet and training techniques have been used for decades without the science to back them up

 

[gregrowlerson]

Didn't you read my post. "If they used Ferrari". Vino, Nibbles, Kash and Aru would never dope. Ican't even imagine it. So thet are disqualified from the list.

Honestly Hitch. I thought that was obvious

This is precisely why even Klodi hasn't been mentioned.

Man, he practically dragged Landis up the alp in '06.

 

[Granville57]

I'd love to see Contador at 60%

Imagine the 2007 TdF...but slower.

 

[Le breton]

Didn't the norwegian young cyclist Svendsen have VO2 max over 95 or something? Doenst mean he will win much

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Svendsen

97.5 actually.

As for the 96 of Daehlie, it is obviously below the 100+ values enjoyed by the top cyclists in the top years in EPO doping 94-98.
Funny they never posted their rat-lab values, but rest assured Antoine Vayer has them in his files (together with the watts/kg of the Festina boys).

 

[Le breton]

....
guys who fed with pain. that's how they won. it's all about the pain....

When does the pain come into the equation Jens?
Of course it is when "you" are comfortable at 20 km/h on a climb at the end of a hard day in the mountains, but suddenly need to catch a guy who overtakes you going 21 km/h, i.e. gaining 9 sec per km on "you".

At that point, if "your" body does not have it to consume the extra 2 ml/mn.kg VO2 it needs to keep even, no amount of torture will do.

Even during a stress test in the Dr's office, when he encourages you to go on and on beyond the pain threshold, the VO2 hardly increases at all, the values are practically the same just below and "beyond" the pain threshold.

 

[Echoes]

Merckx was not a climber. He was 72kg, form weight. He's said it multiple time. In the steepest slopes he was always in trouble against the featerweight climbers. Goddet and Torriani would always use that weakness because they both wanted to see him lose.


On CN people think that climbing is what matters in cycling. Nothing could be wronger and the climbers' hype bores me. Climbing is something for specialists. You need to have an ITT in the bag to be an all-rounder but not necessarily a climb. The greatest riders in history were all great ITT'ist but not necessarily great climbers. If you are 70+kg, there's a pretty good chance that you won't climb with pocket climbers, right?

The Tour of France today is a matter for specialists, as I argued on other places. Dozens of MTF, steeper gradients then before and barely one flat ITT that can't balance the mountains. It's a pretty damn joke. I understand why Cancellara hates it, now. But I won't complain. The classics have the upper hand, it's just so good.

 

[Dr. Juice]

You all say " Don't know what to make of Pantani" but I think even if you assume he was a very good EPO responder and take the maximum perfomance advantage you can extract out of this substance....and take that much away in minutes or watts....he would still climb reasonably well clean in a doped field - such an advantage he had over the rest.

Nevertheless: Moncoutié is the best example of a hugely gifted rider. Just liked to ride his bike, always refused doping, 13th in the 2002 Tour, winning stages in the Dauphiné, Route du Sud, Criterium International, Pais Vasco. Thought he could try the GC in the 2003 TdF but realised the "speeds were crazy". Won stages in the TdF, the Vuelta and 4 times KOM in the spanish GT.
Just wanted to "be happy", sometimes regretting that there were 2 speeds in the peleton but always proud of his achievements. Imagine him in the 80's without the others on EPO.

 

[Tonton]

You all say " Don't know what to make of Pantani" but I think even if you assume he was a very good EPO responder and take the maximum perfomance advantage you can extract out of this substance....and take that much away in minutes or watts....he would still climb reasonably well clean in a doped field - such an advantage he had over the rest.

Maybe. Possibly. Yet, his performance can't really be compared and gauged. As great as he was, or seemed to be, just how good/great was he? Okay, he was a better climber than Virenque.

 

[Futuroscope]

A rider can have a super high Vo2 but can't perform after 5 hours of several climbs. Often this is because of their way their body burns fat/sugars and the resulting acid level in their blood. While much of this has been know for a while the large scale adaption is fairly new. Saw an interesting interview with Belkin's nutritionist. His quote was "Train carb low, race cab high". Beyond the weight loss benefits it also trains your body to burn fat instead of sugar.....resulting in less acid. This can be a big benefit on the final climb of a 5 hour race

Train low, race high (carbs) has been around for a while now but does it really work (that way)? How much training can you really do with low carbs?

I don't know much about training methods but if you look at running the kenyans are eating a bunch of carbs. What serious endurance athlete consistently eats low carb? You need fuel.

 

[plagioni]

The Tour of France today is a matter for specialists, as I argued on other places. Dozens of MTF, steeper gradients then before and barely one flat ITT that can't balance the mountains. It's a pretty damn joke. I understand why Cancellara hates it, now. But I won't complain. The classics have the upper hand, it's just so good.

And yet three of the last four Tours (2011, 2012, 2013) have been won by world class TT specialists. I wonder what would happened if MTF were to be reduced and ITT kms increased.