Bin Laden dead

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flicker said:
So, what you are saying is if Bin Laden were tried, as Moore insinuates the real truth would come out about who controlled Bin Laden.(Wahabi leaders, republicans for the New Century etc.)
The logic doesn't stick, because Bin Laden hid, he wasn't protected anymore.
He could not get out of his area to Indonesia or Yemen, or protected by some other madman in North Korea or Hugo Chavez in Venezula. Bin Laden's visa hadexpired, he could only hide with the corrupted in ****stan....
If you chose to argue here there are no Republicans or Democrats.
Just a pirate down with Davie Jones.....
Moore does not get it. He needs to spend some time in the Saudi Arabia, Somalia or Yemen, and not in a s**** hotel, protected by Blackwater.....
He needs to see the laws which people abide by in the Middle East.
Micheal, you are not in Dearborn, or Kansas anymore.... oh poor TOTO...

You make some sense. He was off the Reservation and the Saudi's weren't bringing him home. As for Red thinking the vast Repulslican conspiracy aided and abetted...that's alot more complicated than Haliburton can pull off; even with a pre-printed agenda.
 
May 23, 2010
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Oldman said:
You make some sense. He was off the Reservation and the Saudi's weren't bringing him home. As for Red thinking the vast Repulslican conspiracy aided and abetted...that's alot more complicated than Haliburton can pull off; even with a pre-printed agenda.

off the reservation as much as Ollie North was. As far as Republican aiding and abetting..I am in the LIHOP group.. Whatever happened was good good for the BCF..No one they cared about was lost.
 
One of my posts, several pages back, testifies to the serious bad business the US government has been up to, and not only in the Mideast region, for decades.

Now I'm sure this won't be very popular with the ideologues here, however, the situation demands a more objective analysis than what a sentimental patriotism (or purly ideological position) usually permits.

When one talks about crimes and terrroism, one should be honest enough to indicate all such instances where such acts are commited and not only those one wishes to identifiy, or give two different measurements to the same weight. Thus when it comes to America having for decades provided political, at times even military, support for some the worst regimes and dictators on the planet; or even merely tollerating them, because the economic and strategic expedients were viewed as decisive within a culture of realpolitik (first against communism, then for oil and other resources), it shares the weight of moral responsibility in terms of the crimes those regimes commit against civilian society. What did America do to obstruct the coup d'étate and subsequent murderous folly ("purgings"), for example, of Auguste Pinochet, to cite but one example?

From a juridical point of view the US government can't be put on the same plane as Al Qaeda of course, however, in such instances any signifcant ethical or moral difference among them becomes rather difficult to clearly identify, as everything gets blurry. In other words, I don't see, in an objective analysis, a substantial difference between arming a pathological dictator, who then goes on to murder thousands of his own people, and training a bunch of terrorists to fly some planes into a couple of skyscrappers. Neither do many in the Arab world, and not only. The only real difference is that juridically the one can't be processed, while the other can (provided they bring them in alive), yet morally the responsibility is the same.

And it is precisely this distinction between legality and ethics, or rather the blurred contours deliminating what is legal and what's right, which also allows for the one to convince its people that it has done nothing wrong while acting within its legal rights, while the other to convince its sympathizers (who are many) of rather being freedom fighters in a just cause against the tyranny of oppression. This is why it has so often been said that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. It all depends on the perspective (and propaganda) with which one chooses to view the circumstances.

The point I'm trying to make is that if America wants to be viewed as less brutal and hypocritical to the poor and disenfranchised of the planet, then it needs to make its "legal rights" corrospond with actual, and not merely simulated, ethical practice. Backing the Saud regime or playing off the brutality of this or that dictator for reasons of political and economic expediency, won't do the trick. While this is also the surest way of providing a nurishing fertilizer to the garden of anti-Americanism, anti-Westernism within which the terrorist networks thrive.

Of course America isn't alone in this bad business, but so too are most of the powerful European states as well. Ultimately defeating the terrorists, however, will take place only when we remove all reasons allowing them to be viewed and perceived as freedom fighters and not as the mere criminals they are. Repression only pruduces limited results, like cutting the branch off a tree which grows back again, instead of uprooting it entirely. We do this by, in point of fact, not behaving criminally. But so far this has not been done. In fact, it is far from the case. Most unfortunately.

While chalking it up, rather cynically, to just realpolitik, as if the world could only function this way (simply becuase it always has) or, worse, claiming an alibi by pointing out everybody else's crimes: is only a pathetic way to not deal with what remains a very serious issue that is historically way beyond its expiration date. The terrorists are the first to realize this, in fact, it provides them with their raison d'etre.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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How did that ticking time bomb scenario work again?

Jack Bauer interrogates someone to avert disaster for 6 years x 365 day x 24 hours = 52560 hrs. That's one long episode...
 
rhubroma said:
One of my posts, several pages back, testifies to the serious bad business the US government has been up to, and not only in the Mideast region, for decades.

Now I'm sure this won't be very popular with the ideologues here, however, the situation demands a more objective analysis than what a sentimental patriotism (or purly ideological position) usually permits.



When one talks about crimes and terrroism, one should be honest enough to indicate all such instances where such acts are commited and not only those one wishes to identifiy, or give two different measurements to the same weight. Thus when it comes to America having for decades provided political, at times even military, support for some the worst regimes and dictators on the planet; or even merely tollerating them, because the economic and strategic expedients were viewed as decisive within a culture of realpolitik (first against communism, then for oil and other resources), it shares the weight of moral responsibility in terms of the crimes those regimes commit against civilian society. What did America do to obstruct the coup d'étate and subsequent murderous folly ("purgings"), for example, of Auguste Pinochet, to cite but one example?

From a juridical point of view the US government can't be put on the same plane as Al Qaeda of course, however, in such instances any signifcant ethical or moral difference among them becomes rather difficult to clearly identify, as everything gets blurry. In other words, I don't see, in an objective analysis, a substantial difference between arming a pathological dictator, who then goes on to murder thousands of his own people, and training a bunch of terrorists to fly some planes into a couple of skyscrappers. Neither do many in the Arab world, and not only. The only real difference is that juridically the one can't be processed, while the other can (provided they bring them in alive), yet morally the responsibility is the same.

And it is precisely this distinction between legality and ethics, or rather the blurred contours deliminating what is legal and what's right, which also allows for the one to convince its people that it has done nothing wrong while acting within its legal rights, while the other to convince its sympathizers (who are many) of rather being freedom fighters in a just cause against the tyranny of oppression. This is why it has so often been said that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. It all depends on the perspective (and propaganda) with which one chooses to view the circumstances.

The point I'm trying to make is that if America wants to be viewed as less brutal and hypocritical to the poor and disenfranchised of the planet, then it needs to make its "legal rights" corrospond with actual, and not merely simulated, ethical practice. Backing the Saud regime or playing off the brutality of this or that dictator for reasons of political and economic expediency, won't do the trick. While this is also the surest way of providing a nurishing fertilizer to the garden of anti-Americanism, anti-Westernism within which the terrorist networks thrive.

Of course America isn't alone in this bad business, but so too are most of the powerful European states as well. Ultimately defeating the terrorists, however, will take place only when we remove all reasons allowing them to be viewed and perceived as freedom fighters and not as the mere criminals they are. Repression only pruduces limited results, like cutting the branch off a tree which grows back again, instead of uprooting it entirely. We do this by, in point of fact, not behaving criminally. But so far this has not been done. In fact, it is far from the case. Most unfortunately.

While chalking it up, rather cynically, to just realpolitik, as if the world could only function this way (simply becuase it always has) or, worse, claiming an alibi by pointing out everybody else's crimes: is only a pathetic way to not deal with what remains a very serious issue that is historically way beyond its expiration date. The terrorists are the first to realize this, in fact, it provides them with their raison d'etre.

Another starkly rational assessment. The cogs are whirring in the heads of the idealogues...
 
ChrisE said:
Moore's analogy has a flaw. There is no line in the sand where this "war" stops, and Nuremberg was the culmination of the end of WWII along clear lines. Germany, Japan, and Italy moved on and worked to become productive nations in the world. By putting bin Laden on trial it would not result in the rest of the nutjobs in the world like him suddenly realizing the errors in their ways.

That argument would hold weight if trials were only held in cases where some kind of closure was anticipated. But obviously that is not the case. We put drug dealers and mafia bosses on trial, knowing full well that there will be more drug dealing and organized crime. In fact, I can't think of a single type of domestic crime that is prevented for all time by putting perps of it on trial. Would it be better just to pick them off with snipers in the streets?

Of course there would be downsides to putting someone like bin Laden on trial. The idea is that trials are such a vital part of our system that we put up with the downsides. We often put up with similar downsides with domestic crimes. Think of the witnesses that get murdered before or during a gangster's trial, deaths that could be prevented if we just killed the gangster. Or the riots that may occur during a trial with racial overtones. Little question that elite government assassination squads could prevent a lot of this collateral damage.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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ChrisE said:
Yeah, so the worse the crime the more likelihood you get a trial??

Moore's analogy has a flaw. There is no line in the sand where this "war" stops, and Nuremberg was the culmination of the end of WWII along clear lines. Germany, Japan, and Italy moved on and worked to become productive nations in the world. By putting bin Laden on trial it would not result in the rest of the nutjobs in the world like him suddenly realizing the errors in their ways.

More than likely what would happen if he went on trial is there would be daily bombings, kidnappings, etc., which would be promised to cease if he is released. I have zero problem putting a cap in him, and even though I was jamming Scott upthread (I was talking about Americans, but this argument can be extrapolated) I admit this is a complicated situation with no easy solution.

The level of proof needed to convince a jury to convict may be difficult to reach. So, you let one of these whackjobs go because some evidence in a far away land wasn't obtained properly and they go and blow up a train. They are not gonna say "whew, I barely got outta that one I better straighten my life out".

BTW, did you get my motivation posters? Those are things to live by lol.


Yeah I got your posters! LMAO I need to use a few of them in here. To bad the "Honey Badger" "Don't give a ****" poster was not in that bunch.

I see your points above but I have no time or patience for someone like Moore. He has little to no integrity and will do just about anything to try and make HIS point.
 
Glenn_Wilson said:
Yeah I got your posters! LMAO I need to use a few of them in here. To bad the "Honey Badger" "Don't give a ****" poster was not in that bunch.

I see your points above but I have no time or patience for someone like Moore. He has little to no integrity and will do just about anything to try and make HIS point.

Which makes him different from anyone disseminating information which he trying to counter exactly how?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Hugh Januss said:
Which makes him different from anyone disseminating information which he trying to counter exactly how?

Hugh, I knew that was coming when I posted it. I should have said he is not so different except I really hate that fat sob. That about sums up the diff for me.

Side note redtreviso if "YOUR" reading this I wanted to say that I am posting from a bar that sells beer! WoW
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Glenn_Wilson said:
Hugh, I knew that was coming when I posted it. I should have said he is not so different except I really hate that fat sob. That about sums up the diff for me.

Side note redtreviso if "YOUR" reading this I wanted to say that I am posting from a bar that sells beer! WoW

drunk !!!! why can't you be sober and industrious like me and red? :D
 
Glenn_Wilson said:
Hugh, I knew that was coming when I posted it. I should have said he is not so different except I really hate that fat sob. That about sums up the diff for me.

Side note redtreviso if "YOUR" reading this I wanted to say that I am posting from a bar that sells beer! WoW

That is a really unusual sort of bar you found there.:cool:
 
May 23, 2010
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Glenn_Wilson said:
Hugh, I knew that was coming when I posted it. I should have said he is not so different except I really hate that fat sob. That about sums up the diff for me.

Side note redtreviso if "YOUR" reading this I wanted to say that I am posting from a bar that sells beer! WoW


Good for you...I bet there are some sub human, impaired conversations to be heard..
 
It is war.

Merckx index said:

Tojo was different. He was captured AFTER the surrender. The soldiers were acting as police occupation forces then.

Osama was at war. Shooting him under ANY circumstances was a perfectly legitimate thing to do, unless Osama took the affirmative steps to signal his surrender. I doubt he surrendered, but we'll never know. We certainly don't know enough to accuse the military of wrongdoing.

I think we are being totally lied to about this raid. Osama was probably bugged to the max for months. After we milked him for all the intel we could get, we killed him. I have no problem with that.
 
Nov 2, 2009
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There is an Australian political satire TV show called "The Chaser's War on Everything." I have been told the name is a reference to the US predilection for declaring war, eg, War on Drugs, War on Cancer, War on Terror etc. The notion that violence will solve any problem is a strong theme in American culture.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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ChrisE said:
In Houston? No way.

Redtreviso is channeling the Crawfish dives! He does not know it because all they have up I45 is asshat dingle-snifferzzzs and but that is what he was going for. Or maybe some Whisky Tango Mayonnaise sandwich eating $1.98 beauty pageant winners.
 
May 23, 2010
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patricknd said:
So just curious, what was Teddy K's excuse?

2 assassinated brothers might drive one to drink

What is Dubya's excuse.. and cheney and DeLay and Boner..? The only thing they have more of than their DWIs is draft deferments
 
Spare Tyre said:
There is an Australian political satire TV show called "The Chaser's War on Everything." I have been told the name is a reference to the US predilection for declaring war, eg, War on Drugs, War on Cancer, War on Terror etc. The notion that violence will solve any problem is a strong theme in American culture.

You're not far off although in the old glorified Hollywood version, villains and heroes were easily recognizable. The reality is the declaration of War on... was a Reaganism borne of the same Hollywood hubris. Anyone that's been to war knows you don't speak of the topic unless you're absolutely f*ckin' serious. Nancy Reagan and the "Just say No" campaign was the softer media version but the truth is: there was no "war"; just a media campaign for political purposes.
Unfortunately Mr. Cheney and the moribund Halliburton mafia found an opportunity to resurrect a company headed down the tubes and rode with it. They had a willing shill for the media presentation but, again; it wasn't a "war" so much as an very violent public works project. Hopefully all Americans aren't judged by the rush to act in that circumstance because we're clearly going to pay for it for decades to come. Hopefully that extreme language will disappear for everyone's sake.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Stingray34 said:
So, 'no' to racism, but 'yes' to fatism? It's okay to wish people dead? Whatever you may think of the guy's ideological beliefs, he's at least sophisticated enough to extend his goodwill and argue for positive values such as the rule of law.

You're actually proving his point: the Nazis were worse than Al Quaeda is and they still got a trial (and presumably a fair one at that.) For a nation that elevates its constitution to the realm of the sacred and doesn't shy from political proselytism abroad, the US is deeply and significantly hypocritical for denying an individual a trial for crimes allegedly committed it. US Forces presently occupy several middle eastern nations under the guise of bringing 'freedom and democracy.' Killing a foreign national on another nation's sovereign land sends the very worst kind of mixed message.

While were talking cultural genocide, it's worth remembering the walls of our homes are made of glass. The US Govt did eradicate an entire race of people: many of the present nation's indigenous tribes. The British were also great at that, even better in fact. No we cheer when they marry. I understand Germany has a royal family too...things are looking up for them, it seems. Royal weddings are like drinking from the river Leth; we must all be in hell already then.

BTW, Jewish people aren't a 'race.' It was just that kind of terminology that made them a target in the first place. Just like 'us and them', 'if you're not with us, you're against us.'

I never said I wished for him to die. Where did I say that? It is a fact that Moore is horribly Obese and sweats trying to get on an elevator. Many will say he is likely to take a dirt nap prematurely simply due to his FAT AZZ. That is a good thing because then I do not have to listen or read where someone takes his Hollywood drivel as some type of facts.


The United States is not the only country who have sent “the very worst kind of mixed message”. I disagree with you about the mixed message....I think the message was clear to Osama bin ****en......next in line?:eek:
Here are a few...examples.
I am not sure if you were aware of this or not but the country of Israel has a organization known as the HaMossad leModi'in uleTafkidim Meyuchadim. Those sneaky folks went down to South America and exacted some justice of their own in regards to all those Nazis you refer to getting the fair trials.
If you really want to get into it about things like that then what about the Canadian national the Mossad killed in Belgium. What was he working on ????? the Iraqi Supergun.
More recently they killed the Hamas military commander in a Dubai UAE hotel.

My apologies for posting that the Jewish faith is a race. Seems even our United States Supreme court had some trouble with that. “In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws.”
 
May 23, 2010
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Glenn_Wilson said:
I never said I wished for him to die. Where did I say that? It is a fact that Moore is horribly Obese and sweats trying to get on an elevator. Many will say he is likely to take a dirt nap prematurely simply due to his FAT AZZ. That is a good thing because then I do not have to listen or read where someone takes his Hollywood drivel as some type of facts.

sh-soiling pants much about Michael Moore? Read one too many NRA newsletters? Too much O'Really and Hannity watching? Saudis royals and health insurance CEOs are not fond of him either.. Maybe they will pay to have you groomed Glenn.

Poodle.jpg
 
Sep 30, 2010
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The Nazis were tried after the war but shot during the war. I think we are still at war with the "terrorists".
Do them a favor and help them get their 72 virgins as quickly as possible.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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redtreviso said:
sh-soiling pants much about Michael Moore? Read one too many NRA newsletters? Too much O'Really and Hannity watching? Saudis royals and health insurance CEOs are not fond of him either.. Maybe they will pay to have you groomed Glenn.

Poodle.jpg

I like dogs.

NRA no. FoxNews is "YOUR" gig.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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gobuck said:
The Nazis were tried after the war but shot during the war. I think we are still at war with the "terrorists".
Do them a favor and help them get their 72 virgins as quickly as possible.

with his warm personality red may very well be one of those virgins. :D