Bjarne Riis, saved by silence?

[SundayRider]

If the objective is to dope up riders to win races, the "soft manipulative" approach is just as bad as the "direct bullying".

"Depression" often kicks in when a powerful person becomes powerless and other people makes all the decisions which matters. Reduced to being a spectator. Loss of job, ownership etc are at stake.

For Riis this little down period was a tiny price to pay considering the type of fraud his empire has been build upon.

Just my opinion.

His autobiography is quite a good read actually if you try to read with an open mind.

 

[blackcat]

Bald Eagle underrated as a directeur who gets results

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Bald Eagle underrated as a directeur who gets results

Maybe, but who provided the results?

Contador
Schleck
Luigi
DZ
Hamilton
JJ
Stuey
Rogers
etc

all dopers.

Riis has yet to convince me he can get a result out of a clean rider.

 

[SundayRider]

Maybe, but who provided the results?

Contador
Schleck
Luigi
DZ
Hamilton
JJ
Stuey
Rogers
etc

all dopers.

Riis has yet to convince me he can get a result out of a clean rider.

Is there anyone in top level cycling who has?

 

[Beech Mtn]

<snipped>

Riis: ....No matter what I would have said, this or that, left or right, I would have gotten beaten with a stick so it doesn't really change anything. And at a certain point I lost the overview and it was impossible for me to tell what was up and what was down.

What happened and didn't happened doesn't necessarily need to be public knowledge. I don't have that need....like so many others do. Like it has to be a public confessional. I don't buy it. I don't. I've told those that need to know what there is to be told, and that is enough for me. (long pause, no blinking, straight stare - end scene).

Reminds me of JV's advice to Floyd: tell the anti-doping authorities, but say nothing to the public at large.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Is there anyone in top level cycling who has?

Winning big races? Can't see a really clean win.

Perhaps cleaner now at smaller races, but Riis' DS excellence seems to not work at this level which brings us back to the core issue.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

His autobiography is quite a good read actually if you try to read with an open mind.

Is it available in English?

I heard a lot it had been debunked.

 

[Franklin]

I'd say it's way to easy to say the lack of success in this "clean" era is his fault. In fact, I'm puzzled why he's called unsuccesfu when he still manages to get riders win a GT (most never get that far).

Not much winners every year and they tend to be the same guys.Yet he got at least 1 GT in the last two years. Most teams got zero....

This reminds me how the status of Leinders was downplayed when he had been around for three (almost four!) GT wins as everyone was blinkered by USPS and Saxo. And nowadays it's easy to imagine a total superiority of Sky when they have won two of the last six GT's (the two biggest for sure and with some big questionmarks) and hence forgetting there are other riders still winning GT's (and with their own questionmarks).

Now I don't trust the guy one second, but I'm sure his tactical and strategic capabilities in GT's are second to none. He had too many results all those years. Besides, tactics sure look the same compared to the "dirty" years (yes, that begs the question, doesn't it?).

So I'd handily put him in the dirty category, but I certainly don't put him into the incapable category.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I'd say it's way to easy to say the lack of success in this "clean" era is his fault. In fact, I'm puzzled why he's called unsuccesfu when he still manages to get riders win a GT (most never get that far).

Not much winners every year and they tend to be the same guys.Yet he got at least 1 GT in the last two years. Most teams got zero....

This reminds me how the status of Leinders was downplayed when he had been around for three (almost four!) GT wins as everyone was blinkered by USPS and Saxo. And nowadays it's easy to imagine a total superiority of Sky when they have won two of the last six GT's (the two biggest for sure and with some big questionmarks) and hence forgetting there are other riders still winning GT's (and with their own questionmarks).

Now I don't trust the guy one second, but I'm sure his tactical and strategic capabilities in GT's are second to none. He had too many results all those years. Besides, tactics sure look the same compared to the "dirty" years (yes, that begs the question, doesn't it?).

So I'd handily put him in the dirty category, but I certainly don't put him into the incapable category.

Strategy and tactics becomes so much easier when applied to a doped up A-team. If Riis starts to focus on the clean element of pro cycling, perhaps we will be able to evaluate his DS skills better.

For now, I would say he is a very savvy business man.

 

[Afrank]

Maybe, but who provided the results?

Contador
Schleck
Luigi
DZ
Hamilton
JJ
Stuey
Rogers
etc

all dopers.

Riis has yet to convince me he can get a result out of a clean rider.

Sastre?

Not that I believe him to actually be clean (very few are, and I don't believe any of them are at the top getting those big results). But of all the guys Riis has had on his team, He's the first that comes to mind when I think of guys who have more of a representation of being clean or are regarded as more likely to be clean then others.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Sastre?

Not that I believe him to actually be clean (very few are, and I don't believe any of them are at the top getting those big results). But of all the guys Riis has had on his team, He's the first that comes to mind when I think of guys who have more of a representation of being clean or are regarded as more likely to be clean then others.

Not for me. Not a chance.

Team history and as an example the 3rd week TT performance which cemented his TdF win. Typical doped up performance imo.

If you forced me to put money on a recent rider who won a race clean on Riis team it would be somebody like Morkov.

 

[Samson777]

Is it available in English?

I heard a lot it had been debunked.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Riis-Bjarne/dp/1907637516

If you wanna know about clinic stuff it is BS of course, otherwise I guess it's okay, more or less.

 

[blackcat]

Winning big races? Can't see a really clean win.

Perhaps cleaner now at smaller races, but Riis' DS excellence seems to not work at this level which brings us back to the core issue.

have to agree.

cycling has not, and will not, ever convince me that one could win clean in the selective monuments and GTs. maybe a stagehunter in a GT. But thats a heavily qualified maybe, perhaps in the first week if Cavendish team is in the field and the field does not want a sprint, if Cav's team are not strong enough to put the ropes on.

 

[blackcat]

Is there anyone in top level cycling who has?

bingo bingo

 

[burning]

Not for me. Not a chance.

Team history and as an example the 3rd week TT performance which cemented his TdF win. Typical doped up performance imo.

If you forced me to put money on a recent rider who won a race clean on Riis team it would be somebody like Morkov.

I'd go for Nuyens, maybe I enjoyed how he won Ronde, at least he looks less suspicious for me compared to other big guns.

 

[Franklin]

Strategy and tactics becomes so much easier when applied to a doped up A-team. If Riis starts to focus on the clean element of pro cycling, perhaps we will be able to evaluate his DS skills better.

Unless you tell me Riis currently has a dirtier team than anyone else the results show he's still way up there.

I don't like the guy and I think his riders are dirty, but you are putting up a crazy argument. You say he has no results with clean riders when it's very likely that noone has. So under his peers you can't say he's a crappy DS. The results proof he's still one of the best among them.

 

[Samson777]

Unless you tell me Riis currently has a dirtier team than anyone else the results show he's still way up there.

I don't like the guy and I think his riders are dirty, but you are putting up a crazy argument. You say he has no results with clean riders when it's very likely that noone has. So under his peers you can't say he's a crappy DS. The results proof he's still one of the best among them.

So, we can conclude that Bruynell is the greatest DS ever. No one wins with clean riders, and the results proof that he is the greatest. I wonder if this means, that "We might as well win" will get pulled back from the fiction department

 

[Netserk]

So, we can conclude that Bruynell is the greatest DS ever. No one wins with clean riders, and the results proof that he is the greatest. I wonder if this means, that "We might as well win" will get pulled back from the fiction department

I think you missed his first sentence.

 

[Franklin]

So, we can conclude that Bruynell is the greatest DS ever.

First of, where did I extoll Riis greatness? the question was if the guy was a skilled DS.

but let's look at Bruyneel. Certainly he ranks as one of the most succesful GT DS and some of the wins were tactically not bad at all (Heras/Il Falco).

Do I like the guy? Nope. Do I think I could do just as well with Lance as my rider? Nope.

It's hip to hate on them, but if we look at the field that day and age they sure were very good in not making mistakes.

Again, in no way does that make them any less destructive for the sport or does it exonerate them from being the biggest tools cycling has seen.

No one wins with clean riders, and the results proof that he is the greatest. I wonder if this means, that "We might as well win" will get pulled back from the fiction department

Again, nice strawman, but no dice. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[roundabout]

Bruyneel had nothing to do with Savoldelli's win

 

[Samson777]

First of, where did I extol Riis greatness? the question was if the guy was a skilled DS.

but let's look at Bruyneel. Certainly he ranks as one of the most successful GT DS and some of the wins were tactically not bad at all (Heras/Il Falco).

Do I like the guy? Nope. Do I think I could do just as well with Lance as my rider? Nope.

It's hip to hate on them, but if we look at the field that day and age they sure were very good in not making mistakes.

Again, in no way does that make them any less destructive for the sport or does it exonerate them from being the biggest tools cycling has seen.



Again, nice strawman, but no dice. Don't put words in my mouth.

Is their a huge difference between a great DS or a skilled DS? Let's just called it skilled, if you prefer that.

But otherwise it seems like we are on the same page, and you are ready to see Bruynell as one the most Skilled Even do I am not sure excactly what you mean when saying that " they were very good in not making mistakes".

 

[Benotti69]

Is their a huge difference between a great DS or a skilled DS? Let's just called it skilled, if you prefer that.

But otherwise it seems like we are on the same page, and you are ready to see Bruynell as one the most Skilled Even do I am not sure excactly what you mean when saying that " they were very good in not making mistakes".

Buryneel made plenty of mistakes!!

'99 his boy tests positive for roids.....

His team were caught getting rid of transfusion equipment....

His top riders was caught training with Ferrari....

....

the list is long on Bruyneel. If the sport wasn't so corrupt he would've been long gone!

 

[BroDeal]

First of, where did I extoll Riis greatness? the question was if the guy was a skilled DS.

but let's look at Bruyneel. Certainly he ranks as one of the most succesful GT DS and some of the wins were tactically not bad at all (Heras/Il Falco).

Bruyneel was not the DS for Savoldelli's win. That was Yates if I remember correctly. I am not sure he was DS for Heras either. That also might have been Yates.

 

[Franklin]

I stand corrected then on Savoldelli and (probably) Heras.

That said, Bruyneel still didn't make much misstakes, now did he?

Benotti about the roids: Wasn't that a misstake of Lance and his medical team? It's a tad too much too believe that Bruyneel was (beyond a facilitator and accomplice) also the genius pplanning Lance's day to day intake.

Transfusion equipment: Almost every team was caught (I remember the quote:"it was raining needles"), so though it certainly doesn't make him look smart, if we look at his peers they were just as dumb. Again, the question isn't if he was moral (HAH), it was if he was one of the most skilled DS'es around.

About his top riders being caught with Ferrari: He got away (as did many others), so how can you use that as a slam on his skills? It's certainly once again a slam on his morals, but that's not the issue here.

Of course I agree that in a better environment he would have been tossed from the sport, but again, the question is if he was a skilled DS... Considering his very consistent track record in the TdF it's tough to say he didnt have the neccesary skills. yes, doped and amoral, but his peers weren't much better. Unless we are going to cheer for Riis and colleagues again in a fantastic show of about-face.

Of course, we could add in the definition: "Only moral DS'es are skilled", but that makes a very short list. Legeay as only skilled DS in history? Besides, I would say that Legeay was not just a skilled DS, but a great DS. And that's a much bigger accolade.

Samson: It's impossible to call someone as destructive for the sport as Bruyneel is a great man. Just as there are skilled politicians who are so amoral that they are scum of the earth.

 

[Benotti69]

That said, Bruyneel still didn't make much misstakes, now did he?

My lists are not mistakes?

Benotti about the roids: Wasn't that a misstake of Lance and his medical team? It's a tad too much too believe that Bruyneel was (beyond a facilitator and accomplice) also the genius pplanning Lance's day to day intake.

Bruyneel ran the team as DS, so he should take responsibility.

Transfusion equipment: Almost every team was caught (I remember the quote:"it was raining needles"), so though it certainly doesn't make him look smart, if we look at his peers they were just as dumb. Again, the question isn't if he was moral (HAH), it was if he was one of the most skilled DS'es around.

Remind us about other teams caught with tranfusion equipment after using it to infuse blood? Riis's team?

About his top riders being caught with Ferrari: He got away (as did many others), so how can you use that as a slam on his skills? It's certainly once again a slam on his morals, but that's not the issue here.

Is his skill at getting away? No that is the corruption of the sport. That his riders were caught shows a lack of skill.

Of course I agree that in a better environment he would have been tossed from the sport, but again, the question is if he was a skilled DS... Considering his very consistent track record in the TdF it's tough to say he didnt have the neccesary skills. yes, doped and amoral, but his peers weren't much better. Unless we are going to cheer for Riis and colleagues again in a fantastic show of about-face.

If you are talking about buying your way to 7 straight TdF wins, where is the skill in that?