El Pistolero said:
Better to have a "chief" that can actually be of use when things get hot in the mountains than a bunch of stage chasers.
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Better to have a "chief" that can actually be of use when things get hot in the mountains than a bunch of stage chasers.
La Pandera said:
Gilbert has said he'll go to the Tour as a domestique. He just wants to win his stage in Liège.
La Pandera said:
I am very sure Gilbert will. Like El Pisterlero said, Phil wants his stage and then will ride for Cadel. At the get together, Cadel Phil & Thor sat together talked about each others goals for the season and it resulted in a position where everybody was happy. Thor has won that many stages at the tour already. I can't say I am 100% sure he will but what has come from Lelangue & Evans is that the team will be around Cadel at le tour. Having Thor up the road going for a stage could actually be advantageous to the team.
auscyclefan94 said:
Your post implied that you thought that both Gilbert and Thor would be strictly domestiques. Now you're hedging a bit. Which is it going to be?
Talents like Gilbert and Hushovd (and egos too) aren't going to ride around France for 3 weeks as domestiques. What happens if Gilbert doesn't get his win in Liege? You don't seriously think that he's going to say "Oh well, I'm gong to ride for Cadel for the rest of the Tour"?
El Pistolero said:
That's a somewhat contradictory. If you are a domestique, you are a domestique, you might get a stage win if the circumstances allow it, but if you go in with a stage marked as a goal, you aren't in domestique mode. You aren't riding for your team leader that day. You probably aren't riding for him 100% the preceding day, and you probably won't have much to give the following day. I realize that Gilbert's target day is the second day of racing, but what if he doesn't get that win? Someone with the competitive spirit of Gilbert will start looking at other opportunities.
Thor will also want his stages. That's two riders who are looking out for their own interests at least part of the time.
Perhaps someone with a better recall of history can tell me when the last time two domestiques won stages the same time their leader took the GC.
Orvieto said:
The last I can recall is Popo and Hincapie w/ Armstrong but I'm not sure that was the same year of the Tour.
La Pandera said:
Savoldelli (st 17) and Hincapie (st 15), 2005; Popo was White Jersey (no stages wins) in 2005.
auscyclefan94 said:
common sense always prevail-so i'm breaking it down to everyone: the highlighted "domestics" are getting burnt by the time they hit the tour-& you haven't shown how the domestiques "own" schedule-apart from the races you mentioned are going to be laid out to be "equally" effective to the demands of "their leaders"..........
BTW-Pinnoti & TVG are thinking themselves for the Giro & the Vuelta......
now can you tell me once more they're going to be fine?
really? those two have their own interests in the Giro & Vuelta-so don't expect the label domestiqueEl Pistolero said:
auscyclefan94 said:
common sense always prevail - and to prove my point -just look at the "domestiques" in red & how they're utilized by the time the TDF arrives- & you haven't included the remaining races those "domestiques" are going to do in between their duties....IAW they'll be burnt out at the Tour because they won't have enough quality riders to swap responsibilities with.......
hfer07 said:
Firstly, Pinotti will be a domestique but he has proven in the past that he can ride for his own goals as well. Pinotti is not doing the Tour. Secondly, Tejay is doing the Tour and has said that he has no interest in the Vuelta. All those guys rode the classics or rode hard for results during the season this year and were perfectly good domestiques in July. Your points do not hold up at all.
I am with you ACF - I think Phil and Thor will quite happily do their fair share of dom duties and sacrifice at the tour.
As far as Phil is concerned - he wants to win ALL the classics. He doesnt actually care that much about the Tour (hence not going at all between 2008-2010). He only went to 2011 because he knew he could win the first stage and get a yellow jersey. He will be happy to spend July riding around France in support of Cadel if Cadel will dom for him in Spring. Thats basically it in a nutshell.
As for Thor - he went to BMC for a) the money, and b) because he wants to win PR. He wasnt happy with the approach of Garmin, and decided way back then to leave. He is pretty happy to sacrifice anything and everything - including the Tour - for a decent shot at PR.
They want to ride together ... and Phil at least has ridden with Cadel before ... so its not like they would not have sorted this out well prior to any contracts being signed.
I think its pretty well balanced. I will be interested to see what happens at the Vuelta though - as they may all want to do that to prepare for the Worlds.
As far as Phil is concerned - he wants to win ALL the classics. He doesnt actually care that much about the Tour (hence not going at all between 2008-2010). He only went to 2011 because he knew he could win the first stage and get a yellow jersey. He will be happy to spend July riding around France in support of Cadel if Cadel will dom for him in Spring. Thats basically it in a nutshell.
As for Thor - he went to BMC for a) the money, and b) because he wants to win PR. He wasnt happy with the approach of Garmin, and decided way back then to leave. He is pretty happy to sacrifice anything and everything - including the Tour - for a decent shot at PR.
They want to ride together ... and Phil at least has ridden with Cadel before ... so its not like they would not have sorted this out well prior to any contracts being signed.
I think its pretty well balanced. I will be interested to see what happens at the Vuelta though - as they may all want to do that to prepare for the Worlds.
Little known fact: Phil Gil won races in every month of the season, bar October.
(only missed out in October by not taking his usual Lombardy title)
The guy had a superman season and virtually no rest break.
I'm not sure riding 3500 kms in the heat of July again, but without any personal ambition, (stages + Olympics) as a workhorse, is something he would wish to undertake.
Likewise, I cannot see Thor turning his nose up at the sniff of a green jersey.
I think this: one for all and all for Cadel, Tour philosophy is a bit naive.
(only missed out in October by not taking his usual Lombardy title)
The guy had a superman season and virtually no rest break.
I'm not sure riding 3500 kms in the heat of July again, but without any personal ambition, (stages + Olympics) as a workhorse, is something he would wish to undertake.
Likewise, I cannot see Thor turning his nose up at the sniff of a green jersey.
I think this: one for all and all for Cadel, Tour philosophy is a bit naive.
Mellow Velo said:
It's a shame that VDB2 fell this year. It would have been interesting to see how much Gilbert would have worked for him.
Mellow Velo said:
Other little known fact:
Phil has said in interviews dating back from July already that he would like to be a part of a Tour winning team. Not only wins are prestigious.
Phil has said several times already that he will be a domestique. Phil is the guy that in interviews never lies about whether he'll be a domestique or leader. Just look at how he burned off GVA already. If he wasn't planning on being a domestique at the Tour he would just say so.
Gilbert did work for him: he spared him the tiresome podium and press obligations which come with a stage win, by closing the gap on the Mur de Bretagne and handing the stage to Evans.Panda Claws said:
theyoungest said:
1) He was never going to win that stage
2) He made a mistake and already admitted that quite some time ago
3) VDB2 never said what he was planning to do. Gilbert thought he was leading him out.
4) Some people actually learn from their mistakes. Phil is one of them.
There's not much I've seen in Gilbert's racing habits to suggest that he'll be a good helper to anyone. He wants to win races himself, period.El Pistolero said:
El Pistolero said:Ah, but I'm merely calling them out for their bad 2011. Navarro was great in 2010, but failed in 2011. The pessimist in me isn't very confident in the likes of Navarro for next year.
The thing is, he had a weak team this year and Riis has done nothing to make it stronger for next year.
Another Tour favorite, Leipheimer, who does he have in the mountains? The only ones with a strong team for the Tour are Radioshack-Nissan-Trek.
Froome, I believe, will do the Vuelta next year, so he won't be there at the Tour(correct me if I'm wrong). And since Cavendish will be on Wiggins' team a lot of team support will go to him instead.
Besides, who cares about mountain domestiques! Contador had none this Giro and he won! Evans had none this Tour and he won! According to you the Tour is a one week race without mountains anyway. So why would they even bother buying mountain domestiques?
leipheimer is no tourfavorite and has has velits as a good helper. but he doesn't need any as he's not going to attack in the mountains
theyoungest said:
That's because before now he never rode a GT where the team had a GC guy. VDB2 crashed this year, so he was free to ride for him self.
Was this before or after Greipel left the team bus utterly frustrated that Gilbert wouldn't let him have his chance?El Pistolero said:
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