BMC Soigneur caught with 195 does of EPO

[D-Queued]

Cycling to add songs like Rugby

Just wanted to add that we may want to applaud this new moveby cycling to adopt some good old Rugby traditions:

(Sing to the tune of '99 bottles of beer on the wall)

195 doses of EPO on the wall
195 doses of EPO
Take one down
Pass it around
194 doses of EPO on the wall
...

Dave.

 

[luckyboy]

lol at this

 

[dlwssonic]

BMC has to be excluded!!!!!!!!!!
This day 5 years ago they excluded Ullrich and Baso on very few solid proof.

how about contador? how about OPL? If BMC has to be excluded because of some doping scandal. Half of the teams wouldnt be riding.

 

[danjo007]

for starters, who even would use epo anymore~ isnt it dead easy to detect?

 

[sniper]

for starters, who even would use epo anymore~ isnt it dead easy to detect?

it is.
but when has that bothered the UCI?

 

[Mellow Velo]

for starters, who even would use epo anymore~ isnt it dead easy to detect?

Not according to Thomas Frei..................................oh, wait.

 

[sniper]

for starters, who even would use epo anymore~ isnt it dead easy to detect?

it is, but when has that ever bothered the UCI?

 

[goggalor]

Unless the police is sitting on the juicy bits, BMC should live to fight another day. If Sven S. worked 13 days for BMC last year and 2 days this year, that leaves a lot of days for other jobs. That EPO could be for BMC, or it could be for another team, or he could even be the local supplier. The BMC connection isn't strong enough to build much suspicion around, but it is not a good look for the team anyway.

The case is strangely similar to Omega Pharma-Lotto's: A person loosely connected to the team (a lot more loosely in OPL's case) is caught with a large amount of doping products (a lot more recently in OPL's case), then claims it's for personal use. Again, Vansevenant is probably lying, but that doesn't mean the dope is for Omega Pharma-Lotto.

 

[rata de sentina]

I agree, the link to BMC is too tenuous for it to have much of a practical impact although it is a bit embarassing. To me it just reflects that doping was pervasive throughout the sport for many years and is going to take a long time to reduce. The only people who are really worried about the impact on BMC are the one-eyed Cadel fanboys like Ryo and acf94.

 

[dlwssonic]

I agree, the link to BMC is too tenuous for it to have much of a practical impact although it is a bit embarassing. To me it just reflects that doping was pervasive throughout the sport for many years and is going to take a long time to reduce. The only people who are really worried about the impact on BMC are the one-eyed Cadel fanboys like Ryo and acf94.

LOLLOLOLOL. thats the biggest joke ever. you should reread his posts.

 

[red_flanders]

Good comments about the tenuous link. What strikes me is that this is exactly the kind of defensible situation that one would plan for in a courier. Someone not completely or directly related to the team.

Makes it really hard to prove anything and allows semi-plausible deniability.

 

[sniper]

Good comments about the tenuous link. What strikes me is that this is exactly the kind of defensible situation that one would plan for in a courier. Someone not completely or directly related to the team.

Makes it really hard to prove anything and allows semi-plausible deniability.

+1
You would never expect any fulltime staffmember to take these risks.
Those running the team program will always make sure that somebody who's NOT directly connected to the team facilitates the drugsupplies.
That's why they're called "middlemen", I guess.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Good comments about the tenuous link. What strikes me is that this is exactly the kind of defensible situation that one would plan for in a courier. Someone not completely or directly related to the team.

Makes it really hard to prove anything and allows semi-plausible deniability.

Wouldn't they rather search for someone NOT related AT ALL for that matter? Anyway, my (maybe once to be) father in law works as a bike positioner. He is an independant and works for pro's, amateurs, juniors, cyclocrossers, and cycling tourists. Basically, people come to his shop, he meassures the person (arms, legs, feet, shoulders...) and the bike, and adjusts the bike accordingly. He's been doing this for a long time and seems to have a good understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. He never elaborated on the matter, but claimed there is a lot more dope going around in the amateur world than in the pro world.

This doesn't seem te be so far fetched as amateurs are likely to get away with it easier (less check-ups etc...). Anyway, in that regard, both Sven S and Wim V might not have been transporting for OPL and BMC.

 

[Lanark]

Wouldn't they rather search for someone NOT related AT ALL for that matter? Anyway, my (maybe once to be) father in law works as a bike positioner. He is an independant and works for pro's, amateurs, juniors, cyclocrossers, and cycling tourists. Basically, people come to his shop, he meassures the person (arms, legs, feet, shoulders...) and the bike, and adjusts the bike accordingly. He's been doing this for a long time and seems to have a good understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. He never elaborated on the matter, but claimed there is a lot more dope going around in the amateur world than in the pro world.

This doesn't seem te be so far fetched as amateurs are likely to get away with it easier (less check-ups etc...). Anyway, in that regard, both Sven S and Wim V might not have been transporting for OPL and BMC.

Well, you need someone who is not too close to the team, so you there is some plausible deniability, but you also need someone you know you can trust, a former team member who was always the first to sacrifice himself for the greater good seems perfect in that regard. The fact that Vansevenant and Sven S appear to be ready to take all the blaim seems to indicate they were well chosen.

Everybody knows that there is a lot of doping the amateur ranks. The EPO from the BMC soigneur could easily have been meant for exactly that purpose. But I find it a lot harder to believe that the experimental, non-detectable expensive doping that Vansevenant dealt in would be used in the amateur ranks. That's exactly the type of doping you would expect a pro that tries to gain an edge on his competition would use.

 

[hrotha]

Wouldn't they rather search for someone NOT related AT ALL for that matter?

You need someone you can trust.

edit: ninja'd!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't agree on that last part. Exactly because it is experimental. Is it tracable? What are the side effects? Is it safe? Etc... To me, that seems like chances two world top cyclists wouldn't be taking any day soon. If they do, i believe they would have been caught long before Ricco ever was.

EDIT: Finding someone you can trust, but doesn't have any ties to your team doesn't seem that hard to me. But anyway, that's not really the point.

EDIT 2: Why not look further than OPL? He raced for other teams before OPL. He's just as much an ex team member there as he is for Lotto. I'm sure he knows a lot of people in the business. People towards whom he is trustworthy.

 

[Bala Verde]

I don't agree on that last part. Exactly because it is experimental. Is it tracable? What are the side effects? Is it safe? Etc... To me, that seems like chances two world top cyclists wouldn't be taking any day soon. If they do, i believe they would have been caught long before Ricco ever was.

How do we know it's "experimental"? Who knows they have been 'testing' this horse product on some lesser gods in amateur races in Australia, or wherever and they concluded that it didn't kill them and that it had a performance enhancing effect. They could have been using it an entire season, trying out different doses, recording effects and cyclist's experiences.

It is highly likely, according to the sporza professor, that such a product is non-traceable, because it has never been officially tested on human beings, and is in essence an animal product.

The fact that it is a newly discovered product (by the general public), doesn't mean it hasn't been piloted (non-officially tested) before.

As for the amount of EPO found, it's a lot and he could have a side business for amateurs. I just don't think the big boys are still using EPO, because that is generally known to be detectable. Unless this EPO was of a new generation?

 

[skippythepinhead]

How do we know it's "experimental"? Who knows they have been 'testing' this horse product on some lesser gods in amateur races in Australia, or wherever and they concluded that it didn't kill them and that it had a performance enhancing effect. They could have been using it an entire season, trying out different doses, recording effects and cyclist's experiences.

It is highly likely, according to the sporza professor, that such a product is non-traceable, because it has never been officially tested on human beings, and is in essence an animal product.

The fact that it is a newly discovered product (by the general public), doesn't mean it hasn't been piloted (non-officially tested) before.

As for the amount of EPO found, it's a lot and he could have a side business for amateurs. I just don't think the big boys are still using EPO, because that is generally known to be detectable. Unless this EPO was of a new generation?

I wonder whether anyone will be comparing its effects with 'beetroot juice.'

 

[hrotha]

As for the amount of EPO found, it's a lot and he could have a side business for amateurs. I just don't think the big boys are still using EPO, because that is generally known to be detectable. Unless this EPO was of a new generation?

EPO is still used (the last positive was Pasquale Muto in May, and during the Vuelta we had Sentjens and García Dapena). It's detectable, but it's not easy to detect. If the doper does things right, the window of opportunity is very small (like, you have to test him right after he injects the EPO).

 

[BigBoat]

Sven was one of MANY. We'll never know how many PED suppliers are out their in cycling, or all sports for that matter.

EPO is still used (the last positive was Pasquale Muto in May, and during the Vuelta we had Sentjens and García Dapena). It's detectable, but it's not easy to detect. If the doper does things right, the window of opportunity is very small (like, you have to test him right after he injects the EPO).

EPO is very detectable, even human identical (DYNEPO). Thats why they use teeny tiny amounts through an IV drip, to just stimulate rectics but not test positive. That amount is all they need to normalize their blood values while autologously transfusing many bags of their frozen packed red cells throughout the year.....

Not all the top riders do this of course....its expensive AS HELL. Not worth it if you cant crack the top 30 when blood doped. So many of the poorer Pro guys go without.....

Sentjens could have been doing the above....or he could have been going without & trying to keep his crit up with smallish amounts of epo injected, which is extremely risky & not really worth it....

And anyways... The epo from 2009 could have been for anyone. There's amateur's, juniors & masters that use epo. I dont like it one damn bit.... that doping cant be controlled, but there's very little we can do about it. So push for legalization of epo in pro cycling, makes it fair for everyone who races at a high level to have open access without risking police busts.....positives....disgrace & humiliation.

And....if it was legal nobody would give a ****, it would be like drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes. With MUCH less negative health benefit & a lot more speed on the bike....

 

[hrotha]

EPO is very detectable, even human identical (DYNEPO). Thats why they use teeny tiny amounts through an IV drip, to just stimulate rectics but not test positive. That amount is all they need to normalize their blood values while autologously transfusing many bags of their frozen packed red cells throughout the year....

Well yes, microdosing is one of the things I meant by "doing it right".

Point is, EPO is not easy to detect they way it's being used in the peloton right now.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

How do we know it's "experimental"? Who knows they have been 'testing' this horse product on some lesser gods in amateur races in Australia, or wherever and they concluded that it didn't kill them and that it had a performance enhancing effect. They could have been using it an entire season, trying out different doses, recording effects and cyclist's experiences.

If this is the case, if there was indeed this organized network already working and testing... why on earth ordering it on a legitimate online shop to be delivered where you know chances are it will be flaged by customs? I'm sure other options would have been available and a lot less risky.

 

[Boeing]

Aaannnddd emotions run wild. This case has still no connection to Cadel.

glad to see you are on the cuuuuutttting edge of eeeeemmmmoooootttion control

 

[sartain]

There are some really dumb SOB's in cycling.

Hello . . . Earth to TexPat!

 

[Escarabajo]

for starters, who even would use epo anymore~ isnt it dead easy to detect?

Not microdosing.

I see it has been responded already.

It is use to cover up when you infuse blood into your system. Your body sends the signal to stop (or reduce) producing red blood cells because you already have outside help (blood bags) so the Retics go down, and that can ring the bells of the bio-passport. That's why they use EPO micro doses, to stimulate the Retics with infusion of blood.

This has been explained by Landis and Michael Ashenden.

But the amounts reported here were kind of large so we can conclude:

1- He had a side business with amateurs where testing is easier to pass.
2- A portion of that amount is still for the BMC team for microdosing.
3- A portion if not all could be for more than one team in the pro-peloton. If it is used throughout the year you might need quite a bit.
4- Endless applications in sports.

Note for starters: Definition of Retics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticulocyte