I doubt there will be a rematch. Mayweather is desperate to retire unbeaten. If he is beaten well his party has been spoiled and if he wins he goes out like Marciano and hopefully cashed up and no need to fight again. I actually think they should both retire after this fight.
Last Guy To Beat Floyd
Last Guy To Beat Floyd
http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACPLKh239P3pggyiy3BkaDQPCon5CY8bRDKtGPxWdh9cWYoLGEnEFhQrd9QINV8lxYcHQEOlqHO/agWzgefK6nQ/8s3U2F3TdQc0lbqyzDQoHqdGRyp3Q8/ls14tVVPcWYpe11zlmx7oqzwS99G9NIqZGVypokOY2BlzWtnVfvCq6qki7+j462K8=&campaign_id=129&instance_id=56509&segment_id=71606&user_id=12d98412e3bcc0522f6cfbf4c21c54e6®i_id=42685115
Last Guy To Beat Floyd
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Interesting read, thanks.
I don't see a rematch if Floyd wins, if he loses, maybe.
Agree Floyd is desperate to retire unbeaten. He's convinced himself that will mean he's the best fighter ever - something all serious boxing fans find absurd. This is also why I see him fighting cautiously offensively. Fighting not to lose, instead of fighting to win convincingly. Thus the 7-5 decision in his favor, with no knock downs, in a rather uneventful fight.
I don't see a rematch if Floyd wins, if he loses, maybe.
Agree Floyd is desperate to retire unbeaten. He's convinced himself that will mean he's the best fighter ever - something all serious boxing fans find absurd. This is also why I see him fighting cautiously offensively. Fighting not to lose, instead of fighting to win convincingly. Thus the 7-5 decision in his favor, with no knock downs, in a rather uneventful fight.
Floyd’s advantages:
1) Size - This was really apparent when the two were standing next to each other when the fight was announced. Manny’s ideal weight is well below 147, in fact, if not for all the quality competition at welter, he might never have gone beyond lightweight, 135. This is rarely pointed out when comparing the two, but given the size disadvantage, a win by Pacquiao should count for more than a win by Floyd. In fact, if Floyd wins a close decision, one could make a very good argument that Manny was still better pound-for-pound.
2) Style - Manny has problems with counter-punchers, Marquez being the most obvious example. He likes opponents who come up to him and start hitting. Though the wins over de la Hoya, Cotto and Margarito were stunning at the time, they’re exactly the kind of opponents that Manny loves. Mayweather is exactly the kind of opponent who frustrates him.
3) Flexibility - Floyd is a master at making changes during a fight, so no matter what new wrinkles Freddie Roach is planning, he will adapt.
Manny’s advantages:
1) Southpaw - Floyd, like all fighters, doesn’t see a lot of lefties, so he doesn’t get really familiar with them. His vaunted shoulder roll is designed to avoid RH punches. Zab Judah gave him a lot of problems in the opening 4-5 rounds of their fight. Floyd eventually figured him out, but he won't have that much time to figure Manny out.
2) Seen it all - Manny has lost before, he’s been knocked down, and he’s been knocked out. Floyd may put him in serious trouble, but there will be no extra shock value associated with something that has never happened before, as there will be with Floyd if he gets in trouble. Manny fights to win, Floyd fights not to lose. Indeed, a lot of people would say Floyd fights not to get hurt.
3) Offensive minded - This could matter if the fight is close. Think of the NFL. A team can win with either a great offense or a great defense, but if trailing late in the 4th quarter—or trailing by a lot earlier in the game—a defensive team is at a disadvantage, as it has to go against its game plan. It’s the same with boxing. If the fight is close in the late rounds, Manny will be much more comfortable going for the KO than Floyd will. Floyd doesn’t push the action, he waits for his opponent to make a mistake, but when time is running out, you can’t depend on that strategy.
The Wild Card:
Who has been affected more by age? They’re both a little slower than they were a few years ago. But Manny seems to have lost some power as well, and he depends on that more than Floyd does. Power not just to KO an opponent, but to wear him down, and to make him think twice about countering.
A popular saying in boxing is that power is the last thing to go. That seems to belie the fact that Manny hasn’t shown as much power in recent years. He went 24 rounds with Tim Bradley, a relatively small opponent, and couldn’t knock him down. He made Brandon Rios, another relatively small opponent who freely engages, look like a statue, hitting him at will, battering his face into a pulp, but couldn’t knock him down, either. He knocked down Chris Algieri a lot, but couldn’t put him away. This was after destroying much bigger men like de la Hoya, Cotto and Margarito.
Most boxing aficionados regard speed and power as independent qualities, and it’s often noted that very few boxers have both. That’s one of the things that has made Manny exceptional. Sergio Martinez and Amir Khan are/were other examples, though they lack some of Manny’s other attributes. But any physicist will tell you that speed and power are closely related. The energy of a moving object is proportional to the square of its speed. If you have exceptionally fast hands, you should have more power.
The reason they don’t go together often in boxing is that to maximize power, you have to set up, to plant yourself. That makes you more vulnerable to getting hit. Floyd doesn’t do that; on the contrary, he throws a lot of his punches while backing up, which means they lose a lot of their power as they’re thrown. He basically trades power for elusiveness. (Another factor affecting Floyd’s power is that he has fragile hands; he takes an anesthetic that isn’t even allowed in some states to ease the pain).
Manny is more willing to commit himself to his punches. That maximizes the power he gets from his hand speed, but it also makes him more vulnerable. A few years ago, just the threat of his power was enough to cover up a lot of that vulnerability. If that threat isn’t as great now, it will affect his ability to keep Floyd from countering.
Rematch? As Jspear pointed out, there’s no mention of it in the contract. Boxing analyst Kevin Iole thinks it’s highly unlikely, because all the bad blood between these two camps got aggravated by the problems with tickets leading up to the fight. What slim chance there is of a rematch, though, should be affected by the outcome. If Floyd loses, I think there’s a decent chance he will want a rematch. He won’t be undefeated any more, but best fighter of the generation is still at stake. For someone who regards himself as the greatest of all time—he recently boasted he was better than Ali—it would be a huge comedown not even to be regarded as the best of his generation. Manny, not Floyd, was the Fighter of the Decade. Manny has been Fighter of the Year three times to Floyd’s twice, and the winner of this fight will almost certainly win that title, pending a rematch later in the year. And there is all that money.
Finally, I think it's a little sad that this fight is completely overshadowing the Klitschko-Jennings fight this weekend. It's Klitschko's 18th title defense, and if he wins--and he's a huge favorite, as usual--it will break Joe Louis' record.
1) Size - This was really apparent when the two were standing next to each other when the fight was announced. Manny’s ideal weight is well below 147, in fact, if not for all the quality competition at welter, he might never have gone beyond lightweight, 135. This is rarely pointed out when comparing the two, but given the size disadvantage, a win by Pacquiao should count for more than a win by Floyd. In fact, if Floyd wins a close decision, one could make a very good argument that Manny was still better pound-for-pound.
2) Style - Manny has problems with counter-punchers, Marquez being the most obvious example. He likes opponents who come up to him and start hitting. Though the wins over de la Hoya, Cotto and Margarito were stunning at the time, they’re exactly the kind of opponents that Manny loves. Mayweather is exactly the kind of opponent who frustrates him.
3) Flexibility - Floyd is a master at making changes during a fight, so no matter what new wrinkles Freddie Roach is planning, he will adapt.
Manny’s advantages:
1) Southpaw - Floyd, like all fighters, doesn’t see a lot of lefties, so he doesn’t get really familiar with them. His vaunted shoulder roll is designed to avoid RH punches. Zab Judah gave him a lot of problems in the opening 4-5 rounds of their fight. Floyd eventually figured him out, but he won't have that much time to figure Manny out.
2) Seen it all - Manny has lost before, he’s been knocked down, and he’s been knocked out. Floyd may put him in serious trouble, but there will be no extra shock value associated with something that has never happened before, as there will be with Floyd if he gets in trouble. Manny fights to win, Floyd fights not to lose. Indeed, a lot of people would say Floyd fights not to get hurt.
3) Offensive minded - This could matter if the fight is close. Think of the NFL. A team can win with either a great offense or a great defense, but if trailing late in the 4th quarter—or trailing by a lot earlier in the game—a defensive team is at a disadvantage, as it has to go against its game plan. It’s the same with boxing. If the fight is close in the late rounds, Manny will be much more comfortable going for the KO than Floyd will. Floyd doesn’t push the action, he waits for his opponent to make a mistake, but when time is running out, you can’t depend on that strategy.
The Wild Card:
Who has been affected more by age? They’re both a little slower than they were a few years ago. But Manny seems to have lost some power as well, and he depends on that more than Floyd does. Power not just to KO an opponent, but to wear him down, and to make him think twice about countering.
A popular saying in boxing is that power is the last thing to go. That seems to belie the fact that Manny hasn’t shown as much power in recent years. He went 24 rounds with Tim Bradley, a relatively small opponent, and couldn’t knock him down. He made Brandon Rios, another relatively small opponent who freely engages, look like a statue, hitting him at will, battering his face into a pulp, but couldn’t knock him down, either. He knocked down Chris Algieri a lot, but couldn’t put him away. This was after destroying much bigger men like de la Hoya, Cotto and Margarito.
Most boxing aficionados regard speed and power as independent qualities, and it’s often noted that very few boxers have both. That’s one of the things that has made Manny exceptional. Sergio Martinez and Amir Khan are/were other examples, though they lack some of Manny’s other attributes. But any physicist will tell you that speed and power are closely related. The energy of a moving object is proportional to the square of its speed. If you have exceptionally fast hands, you should have more power.
The reason they don’t go together often in boxing is that to maximize power, you have to set up, to plant yourself. That makes you more vulnerable to getting hit. Floyd doesn’t do that; on the contrary, he throws a lot of his punches while backing up, which means they lose a lot of their power as they’re thrown. He basically trades power for elusiveness. (Another factor affecting Floyd’s power is that he has fragile hands; he takes an anesthetic that isn’t even allowed in some states to ease the pain).
Manny is more willing to commit himself to his punches. That maximizes the power he gets from his hand speed, but it also makes him more vulnerable. A few years ago, just the threat of his power was enough to cover up a lot of that vulnerability. If that threat isn’t as great now, it will affect his ability to keep Floyd from countering.
Rematch? As Jspear pointed out, there’s no mention of it in the contract. Boxing analyst Kevin Iole thinks it’s highly unlikely, because all the bad blood between these two camps got aggravated by the problems with tickets leading up to the fight. What slim chance there is of a rematch, though, should be affected by the outcome. If Floyd loses, I think there’s a decent chance he will want a rematch. He won’t be undefeated any more, but best fighter of the generation is still at stake. For someone who regards himself as the greatest of all time—he recently boasted he was better than Ali—it would be a huge comedown not even to be regarded as the best of his generation. Manny, not Floyd, was the Fighter of the Decade. Manny has been Fighter of the Year three times to Floyd’s twice, and the winner of this fight will almost certainly win that title, pending a rematch later in the year. And there is all that money.
Finally, I think it's a little sad that this fight is completely overshadowing the Klitschko-Jennings fight this weekend. It's Klitschko's 18th title defense, and if he wins--and he's a huge favorite, as usual--it will break Joe Louis' record.
- Jun 22, 2009
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There is evidently no end to your in depth knowledge, MI! What an excellent, lucid, piece of informed prose, that brings all of us fringe dilettantes up to speed, for which my thanks. I take it that you won't mind if I share this in a boxing topic elsewhere?
- Aug 4, 2010
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yep, MI your amazing style of writing and knowledge is outstanding.
Just a question... where are you going to follow the match (solo ppv or somewhere?).Im just interested how americans follow this expensive stuff.
Just a question... where are you going to follow the match (solo ppv or somewhere?).Im just interested how americans follow this expensive stuff.
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Excellent post (once again) by Merckx!
With the speed-power correlation, that's certainly interesting. I think it plays somewhat into what Larry Holmes once said about how Ernie Shavers was the hardest puncher he ever fought. Though Ernie wasn't fast, and Tyson actually knocked Larry out. Ernie just had brute strength, and left himself wide open often. Tyson on the other hand used his speed (and and full upper body) to land devastating combinations of punches with speed.
I think the problem with Klitschko-Jennings is that the Klittschko's have been the most boring champions in history. Records or no records. It's painful watch them fight. Jab, jab, jab, hold. Repeat. Granted, it's not their fault the competition is so poor out there, Joe Louis fought several weak contenders, but all their wins have seemed much ado about nothing. To paraphrase the late Burt Sugar, it's sort of like watching the reincarnation of Primo Carnara. Here's a comment from the New York Times on the win over Jennings:
"Despite a win on Saturday night at Madison Square Garden, Klitschko’s performance did not quite inspire the same fear as some of the previous holders of that title."
It's the same story every time, unfortunately.
There's also a little issue that belongs in the Clinic, that being the Klitschko's have the same, ahem, "late blooming" qualities as Chris Horner.
Curious if Deontay Wilder can improve enough to fight Wald before it's too late. He certainly has the size, and sometimes, when he connects, his leverage reminds me of an oversized Tommy Hearns, brutalizing power. But he also seems sloppy in some of the clips I've seen, the win over Bermane Stiverne his best fight, and it was mostly just sheer volume of punches, using his reach. It's like he needs another 2-3 fights before he fights the best guy out there. And that may be too long for Wald to wait.
With the speed-power correlation, that's certainly interesting. I think it plays somewhat into what Larry Holmes once said about how Ernie Shavers was the hardest puncher he ever fought. Though Ernie wasn't fast, and Tyson actually knocked Larry out. Ernie just had brute strength, and left himself wide open often. Tyson on the other hand used his speed (and and full upper body) to land devastating combinations of punches with speed.
I think the problem with Klitschko-Jennings is that the Klittschko's have been the most boring champions in history. Records or no records. It's painful watch them fight. Jab, jab, jab, hold. Repeat. Granted, it's not their fault the competition is so poor out there, Joe Louis fought several weak contenders, but all their wins have seemed much ado about nothing. To paraphrase the late Burt Sugar, it's sort of like watching the reincarnation of Primo Carnara. Here's a comment from the New York Times on the win over Jennings:
"Despite a win on Saturday night at Madison Square Garden, Klitschko’s performance did not quite inspire the same fear as some of the previous holders of that title."
It's the same story every time, unfortunately.
There's also a little issue that belongs in the Clinic, that being the Klitschko's have the same, ahem, "late blooming" qualities as Chris Horner.
Curious if Deontay Wilder can improve enough to fight Wald before it's too late. He certainly has the size, and sometimes, when he connects, his leverage reminds me of an oversized Tommy Hearns, brutalizing power. But he also seems sloppy in some of the clips I've seen, the win over Bermane Stiverne his best fight, and it was mostly just sheer volume of punches, using his reach. It's like he needs another 2-3 fights before he fights the best guy out there. And that may be too long for Wald to wait.
Re:
Unfortunately the heavyweight division has not been exciting for a long time and the interest lay in the lighter divisions. Thank god for DVD is all I can say.
Alpe d'Huez said:
Unfortunately the heavyweight division has not been exciting for a long time and the interest lay in the lighter divisions. Thank god for DVD is all I can say.
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USA Today/Boxing Junkie is reporting on Floyd's softer side.
http://boxingjunkie.com/2015/04/27/tasha-robinson-white-floyd-mayweather/
And Stephen A. Smith has gone as far to say that people need to "grow up" about Mayweather's past:
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/stephen-a-smith-grow-up-floyd-mayweather-violence-domestic-women-manny-pacquiao
Here's the problem. Boxing is a dwindling sport, this in fact is the biggest fight to come along in many years. Most people don't know much of anything about Floyd's past to begin with, as they barely follow the sport. They may briefly remember him arrested for something, and heard of Manny's extra motivation, speaking out against domestic violence.
But the fact is this. Floyd has been arrested seven times, and numerous other occasions where police had to be summoned because of actions or threats against women by Floyd. He's also been arrested for several other infractions as well; stalking, obstruction of a police officer, and violation of a protective order, most of which are dismissed or plead down with help from the best attorneys money can buy. Deadspin did an exhaustive search into his ugly past last year. It's reprehensible, to say the least. Or, put another way, if Floyd were a player in the NFL, he would have long ago been banned for life.
And yet, for some reason, it's almost dismissed in the boxing realm. As if boxing were more violent than the NFL? That can't be it, can it? Or is it just about money? Promoters turn a blind eye because of the cash. Capitalism at it's worst. But why do fans support him? Or remain ignorant of his disgusting past? Is it because they don't care? I hope not. I'm thinking it's because they don't know, because as I said before, boxing is a second tier sport these days. A niche sport. Nothing like the days of past. Having people like Stephen A. Smith, and USA Today essentially whitewash his past makes it no better. But in the days to come, and after the fight, I'm hoping that changes.
http://deadspin.com/the-trouble-with-floyd-mayweather-1605217498
http://boxingjunkie.com/2015/04/27/tasha-robinson-white-floyd-mayweather/
And Stephen A. Smith has gone as far to say that people need to "grow up" about Mayweather's past:
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/stephen-a-smith-grow-up-floyd-mayweather-violence-domestic-women-manny-pacquiao
Here's the problem. Boxing is a dwindling sport, this in fact is the biggest fight to come along in many years. Most people don't know much of anything about Floyd's past to begin with, as they barely follow the sport. They may briefly remember him arrested for something, and heard of Manny's extra motivation, speaking out against domestic violence.
But the fact is this. Floyd has been arrested seven times, and numerous other occasions where police had to be summoned because of actions or threats against women by Floyd. He's also been arrested for several other infractions as well; stalking, obstruction of a police officer, and violation of a protective order, most of which are dismissed or plead down with help from the best attorneys money can buy. Deadspin did an exhaustive search into his ugly past last year. It's reprehensible, to say the least. Or, put another way, if Floyd were a player in the NFL, he would have long ago been banned for life.
And yet, for some reason, it's almost dismissed in the boxing realm. As if boxing were more violent than the NFL? That can't be it, can it? Or is it just about money? Promoters turn a blind eye because of the cash. Capitalism at it's worst. But why do fans support him? Or remain ignorant of his disgusting past? Is it because they don't care? I hope not. I'm thinking it's because they don't know, because as I said before, boxing is a second tier sport these days. A niche sport. Nothing like the days of past. Having people like Stephen A. Smith, and USA Today essentially whitewash his past makes it no better. But in the days to come, and after the fight, I'm hoping that changes.
http://deadspin.com/the-trouble-with-floyd-mayweather-1605217498
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Re:
There was a very interesting article yesterday over here on The Irish Times about a programme on ESPN over the weekend highlighting some of this.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/oth...lent-past-questioned-by-espn-report-1.2190672
Alpe d'Huez said:
There was a very interesting article yesterday over here on The Irish Times about a programme on ESPN over the weekend highlighting some of this.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/oth...lent-past-questioned-by-espn-report-1.2190672
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Stephen smith is Part of the dumbest sports programme imaginable (besides British es coverage of cycling). Shouldn't be taken seriously.
Also btw iirc last year he was banned by his own network for a week because he made distasteful comments about domestic violence re ray rice.
Also btw iirc last year he was banned by his own network for a week because he made distasteful comments about domestic violence re ray rice.
Mayweather is scum, end of. Why does he get a free pass? I honestly think it's because the fans don't care, and that's just as bad.
Re:
He's just a regular proponent of domestic violence. I agree with you, he is lucky not to be in a cell instead of a ring.
King of Fife said:
He's just a regular proponent of domestic violence. I agree with you, he is lucky not to be in a cell instead of a ring.
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Really hoping the media will continue to press this issue. Though it may not really happen until after the fight, as people become more aware each day.
As I said before, had he been a player in the NFL, or just about any other major sport, he would have been banned for life long ago.
It's not boxing, but props to the UFC for quickly stripping Jon Jones of his belt and suspending him indefinitely. Also to Reebok for ending their endorsement of him. To wait for the legal process to play through just because he's innocent until proven guilty and many details are forthcoming would have been a travesty.
As I said before, had he been a player in the NFL, or just about any other major sport, he would have been banned for life long ago.
It's not boxing, but props to the UFC for quickly stripping Jon Jones of his belt and suspending him indefinitely. Also to Reebok for ending their endorsement of him. To wait for the legal process to play through just because he's innocent until proven guilty and many details are forthcoming would have been a travesty.
You'd think with all the media coverage of this fight, there wouldn't be any topic that was ignored, but there are. Here are three very relevant ones being ignored completely:
1. Weight disparity. I mentioned this in my previous post. Manny is not a true welterweight. For him to fight Mayweather at 147 would be like Mayweather going up to 160 and fighting, say, Martinez in his priime, or now, Gennady Golovkin. If that fight actually happened, everyone would be cutting Mayweather slack for the weight disadvantage.
Why doesn’t Manny get any credit for what he’s doing? I think he’s mostly a victim of his own success. He first fought at 147 vs. de la Hoya, and was so dominant against him and others like Cotto and Clottey that he became regarded as a legitimate welterweight.
2. The other Filipino. Want a possible preview of what could happen in this fight? Consider Nonito Donaire, the second-best Filipino boxer in the world. Not long ago, Donaire was considered the likely heir to Pacquiao. He seemed to have it all, speed, power and ring smarts. After losing his second professional fight, he went on a 30 fight winning streak over a period of twelve years, demolishing his opposition. He became a world champion in four divisions, and was ranked in the top 10 on some pound-per-pound lists.
Then he met Guillermo Rigondeaux, who may be the most Mayweather-like fighter not named Mayweather—a defensive wizard who is virtually impossible to hit. Donaire lost the fight, and much of his mystique. Since then, his career seems to have stalled a little. He did go up to 130 and won a world title there, his fifth, but lost by TKO when he defended the title. Though he’s still an excellent fighter, the talk about becoming anything like Pacquiao seems to have stopped.
Rigondeaux, meanwhile, despite being undefeated as a pro, and hailed by no less than Pacquiao’s trainer Freddie Roach as the greatest talent he’s even seen, has trouble getting fights—because he’s considered too boring. No one wants to watch someone who never gets hit, and usually wins on points. If you wonder why Mayweather cultivated the trash-talking, bad boy image, consider that without it, he might have ended up something like Rigondeaux.
3. PEDs. Boxing has some similarities to cycling. In both sports, power/weight is crucial. And both have a PED problem. In fact, if you think cycling hasn’t done enough about PEDs, a little look into boxing will make McQuaid, Verbruggen, etc., look like world-class anti-doping crusaders. Since this is not the Clinic, I won’t go into much detail here. Here is a long and very illuminating two part article on the problem,
http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxin ... s-part-one
http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxin ... s-part-two
that I discussed at length in the Doping in Other Sports thread:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11396&start=1895
But just consider this, keeping in mind that the main reason this fight didn’t happen five years ago is because Mayweather wanted stricter anti-doping controls, and Pacquiao refused:
As detailed in these articles, there’s a lot of evidence that USADA has not been reporting positives of boxers. Erik Morales, who fought Pacquiao three times in the past, more recently tested positive for clenbuterol four times in the space of a few weeks before a fight, but the results were not reported to the appropriate Athletic Commission and he was allowed to fight. Another boxer claimed he gave urine and blood samples, then the samples were thrown out without being tested.
Pacquiao is also plenty suspicious. As I pointed out previously, he jumped three weight classes in eight months, without apparently losing any speed. You don’t do that just by lifting weights and eating a lot. The fight stalled five years ago because Pacquiao objected to having a needle inserted into him and blood withdrawn--this is a guy with tattoos. There is also a former member of his team who has implied he knows Pacquiao used. I don’t have the link right now, but may be able to find it. In any case, this is not the Clinic, but be sure, no one with any monetary interest in this fight wants to talk about doping. If either of these fighters tested positive prior to the fight—or if the winner tested positive after it—I would bet a lot of money that it would be covered up.
1. Weight disparity. I mentioned this in my previous post. Manny is not a true welterweight. For him to fight Mayweather at 147 would be like Mayweather going up to 160 and fighting, say, Martinez in his priime, or now, Gennady Golovkin. If that fight actually happened, everyone would be cutting Mayweather slack for the weight disadvantage.
Why doesn’t Manny get any credit for what he’s doing? I think he’s mostly a victim of his own success. He first fought at 147 vs. de la Hoya, and was so dominant against him and others like Cotto and Clottey that he became regarded as a legitimate welterweight.
2. The other Filipino. Want a possible preview of what could happen in this fight? Consider Nonito Donaire, the second-best Filipino boxer in the world. Not long ago, Donaire was considered the likely heir to Pacquiao. He seemed to have it all, speed, power and ring smarts. After losing his second professional fight, he went on a 30 fight winning streak over a period of twelve years, demolishing his opposition. He became a world champion in four divisions, and was ranked in the top 10 on some pound-per-pound lists.
Then he met Guillermo Rigondeaux, who may be the most Mayweather-like fighter not named Mayweather—a defensive wizard who is virtually impossible to hit. Donaire lost the fight, and much of his mystique. Since then, his career seems to have stalled a little. He did go up to 130 and won a world title there, his fifth, but lost by TKO when he defended the title. Though he’s still an excellent fighter, the talk about becoming anything like Pacquiao seems to have stopped.
Rigondeaux, meanwhile, despite being undefeated as a pro, and hailed by no less than Pacquiao’s trainer Freddie Roach as the greatest talent he’s even seen, has trouble getting fights—because he’s considered too boring. No one wants to watch someone who never gets hit, and usually wins on points. If you wonder why Mayweather cultivated the trash-talking, bad boy image, consider that without it, he might have ended up something like Rigondeaux.
3. PEDs. Boxing has some similarities to cycling. In both sports, power/weight is crucial. And both have a PED problem. In fact, if you think cycling hasn’t done enough about PEDs, a little look into boxing will make McQuaid, Verbruggen, etc., look like world-class anti-doping crusaders. Since this is not the Clinic, I won’t go into much detail here. Here is a long and very illuminating two part article on the problem,
http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxin ... s-part-one
http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxin ... s-part-two
that I discussed at length in the Doping in Other Sports thread:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11396&start=1895
But just consider this, keeping in mind that the main reason this fight didn’t happen five years ago is because Mayweather wanted stricter anti-doping controls, and Pacquiao refused:
As detailed in these articles, there’s a lot of evidence that USADA has not been reporting positives of boxers. Erik Morales, who fought Pacquiao three times in the past, more recently tested positive for clenbuterol four times in the space of a few weeks before a fight, but the results were not reported to the appropriate Athletic Commission and he was allowed to fight. Another boxer claimed he gave urine and blood samples, then the samples were thrown out without being tested.
Pacquiao is also plenty suspicious. As I pointed out previously, he jumped three weight classes in eight months, without apparently losing any speed. You don’t do that just by lifting weights and eating a lot. The fight stalled five years ago because Pacquiao objected to having a needle inserted into him and blood withdrawn--this is a guy with tattoos. There is also a former member of his team who has implied he knows Pacquiao used. I don’t have the link right now, but may be able to find it. In any case, this is not the Clinic, but be sure, no one with any monetary interest in this fight wants to talk about doping. If either of these fighters tested positive prior to the fight—or if the winner tested positive after it—I would bet a lot of money that it would be covered up.
- Mar 11, 2009
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- Aug 4, 2010
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Excellent post as always, my notes...
I think you are exaggerating that weight issue.Pac is so used to fight at welterweight that it almost doest affect those results, Im not saying iits not important, sure..he would have beaten him more easily if this was a 140 (or catchweight under 147) fight but not htat important how you implied.
Second issue is the positive testing...I think its all clear for us that it will be covered up, there is too much money at stake
I think you are exaggerating that weight issue.Pac is so used to fight at welterweight that it almost doest affect those results, Im not saying iits not important, sure..he would have beaten him more easily if this was a 140 (or catchweight under 147) fight but not htat important how you implied.
Second issue is the positive testing...I think its all clear for us that it will be covered up, there is too much money at stake
- Jun 22, 2009
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A car dealer on CNN just said that Mayweather owns over 100 cars, and that he had bought 16 Rolls and three Bugattis from their dealership alone!
A taste of boxing...
Cuevas vs MCC from late summer '80: https://youtu.be/kKsF0k1xCno?t=85
Action from the first sec and once again check out the left jab.
Cuevas vs MCC from late summer '80: https://youtu.be/kKsF0k1xCno?t=85
Action from the first sec and once again check out the left jab.
- Jun 14, 2010
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I think Mayweather isn't a slight favourite but a big favourite. Mayweather is more powerful which is so important. He's also a better tactician and better able to adapt to the opponent. He's never lost (oficially that is, should have lost to Delahoya). He's also got a lot more to lose in the fight. Pacquiao on the other hand seems to just be happy to be here part of the show. His attitude to the fight seems happy go lucky, God will help me win. Even though slightly younger, maybe has more wear and tear due to more fights. Has experienced defeat, has experienced tko, there are guys who can beat him. Mayweather will just take round after round imo. I'll be surprised if pacman wins.
- Oct 23, 2011
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Does anybody know where I can find streams for this?
I'm still doubting a bit whether I will watch this, since it will be at 5am for me, but hey, some of you guys outside of Europe have to watch cycling at awkward times on crappy streams I guess, so now it's my turn.
Thanks for all the info in this thread by the way. I only follow boxing a little bit (actually mostly kickboxing for me); so this thread is helping me get into it and understanding the dynamics of the fight quite a bit.
I'm still doubting a bit whether I will watch this, since it will be at 5am for me, but hey, some of you guys outside of Europe have to watch cycling at awkward times on crappy streams I guess, so now it's my turn.
Thanks for all the info in this thread by the way. I only follow boxing a little bit (actually mostly kickboxing for me); so this thread is helping me get into it and understanding the dynamics of the fight quite a bit.
- Dec 30, 2009
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Re:
l'll be trying to stay up for it as well. This is the stream I'll be trying first. It's usually pretty reliable:
http://cricfree.sx/
ps you can also use it to watch the Dowsett hour attempt which has just started, if that's your thing..
Maaaaaaaarten said:Does anybody know where I can find streams for this?
I'm still doubting a bit whether I will watch this, since it will be at 5am for me, but hey, some of you guys outside of Europe have to watch cycling at awkward times on crappy streams I guess, so now it's my turn.
Thanks for all the info in this thread by the way. I only follow boxing a little bit (actually mostly kickboxing for me); so this thread is helping me get into it and understanding the dynamics of the fight quite a bit.
l'll be trying to stay up for it as well. This is the stream I'll be trying first. It's usually pretty reliable:
http://cricfree.sx/
ps you can also use it to watch the Dowsett hour attempt which has just started, if that's your thing..
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