Breaking news: "Armstrong Brushes Aside Contador Taunt"

[Publicus]

No no.. you don't get to claim some superior powers of recall.

I recorded and re watched every stage and read all I could get my hands on including sometimes wading through google translations in the foreign press.

Contador made tactical errors and still won. He was a lousy teammate who's been abandoned by the riders that rode with him.

He's no saint, he's not invulerable, he's not beyond reproach, and neither are you.

And yet you still don't know what you are talking about? Clearly you have comprehension problems.

I'm well aware that I am not above reproach. I'm also equally aware that my facts are not in error here. In fact, you haven't challenged me factually. You've simply asserted your opinion very strongly about . . . MY OPINION. If you don't like it, that's your perogative, but it's mine based on the facts as witnessed and presented. If you aren't capable of accepting that, then perhaps you should spend a little less time squirreled away watching tapes incessantly to build upon your misguided theories and try interacting with your fellow homo sapiens more. Socialization is the key to leading a healthy and normal life.

 

[Publicus]

Why take Lance back? I'm sorry, that's a really stupid question.
"surely" you don't know that surely JB knew there would be friction.
The way I see it, he "surely" thought that AC was a mature professional which he turned out not to be.

AC is still the obvious favorite in the coming tour but I don't think there's anything certain about him winning considering the conventional wisdom on the importance of team on winning the tour.

Lance clearly has better support around him.

If Lance was the bad guy in all this why didn't any of the riders stay with Alberto? Why do does Lance still command the respect of the vast majority of the best riders in the sport?

(1) Because Johan was recruiting the team during the Tour de France

(2) AC had no team to recruit them to until November 2009.

(3) If you are referring to his new teammates, because he pays them. And the guy won 7 TdF in a row, as a professional athlete or fan of the sport, you have to respect that.

You are starting to give off a real trollish vibe.

 

[buckwheat]

Are you on the Lance payroll

Why take Lance back? I'm sorry, that's a really stupid question.

Stupid question? Just about everyone was wondering how having a guy with Armstrong's ego come back to a team with the Tour favorite was going to work out.

"surely" you don't know that surely JB knew there would be friction.

The Hog probably thought Contador was as much of a suck up yes man, as he (the Hog) knows himself to be.

The way I see it, he "surely" thought that AC was a mature professional which he turned out not to be.

Yeah, but you're not an impartial observer. You appear to be in love.

"AC is still the obvious favorite in the coming tour but I don't think there's anything certain about him winning considering the conventional wisdom on the importance of team on winning the tour..

Wow, you buy all of LA's propaganda. Name the last guy who was considered the strongest in the TdF who didn't win the race because his team held him back.

BTW, it would have been Contador had LA's stupid schemes worked out. Stuff like leaving Contador at the hotel without a ride to the start.

Lance clearly has better support around him.

So what? See above.

If Lance was the bad guy in all this why didn't any of the riders stay with Alberto?

A little naive, are we? He has money, power, and he's ruthless. What are you thinking about besides idolatry?

Why do does Lance still command the respect of the vast majority of the best riders in the sport?

Fear. They don't like him and most would probably side with Kimmage if they didn't fear retribution.

 

[manolo]

I think what AC is saying is that this... rivalry... is... only in Armstrong's head. AC is focused... besting ALL of his rivals, not just Armstrong. [with] Armstrong... you get the sense... he would consider himself victorious if he just finished ahead of AC... In short, nothing short of victory is AC's goal. Nothing short of beating AC is Armstrong's.

Welll said! : )

 

[manolo]

[Contador] rates [Andy Schleck] as a greater threat [than Armstrong].... Armstrong is unable to accept the fact he is no longer the biggest fish in the pond... [yet Contador]... has no intention of taking the bait... he wants to avoid wasting time and effort, getting sucked into pointless mind games with [anyone].

This is what's masterful to me: At his age, with his bickering, his twittering, his business savvy, his relentlessness and his athletic ability, enhanced or not, Armstrong MAKES himself relevant, drawing millions (?) to watch the sport, support his causes and continue to make a da*mn nice living for himself. I think whether you like him or not, whether you admire him or not, he's impressive, to say the least...

 

[manolo]

If Kloden gets on the podium... that would have taken LA's spot... neither one of them was going to knock Andy Schleck off.

The question on my mind is how clearly was it discussed within the team that Armstrong should take that spot and not Kloden.

I always wonder whether or not Kloden:

1. Let Armstrong overtake him at the end of the Grand Bernard stage
2. Was directly asked to support Amstrong up Ventoux
3. If he willingly complied just to keep his job and
4. Whether he ever had any aspirations of his own for the Tour

 

[buckwheat]

People on this side of the pond also have poor reading comprehension...

It was Eddy who said that "he considers Contador the biggest threat to Armstrong" not the NYTimes.

And 2006 -08 WERE doping marred. Thats a fact the NYTimes could stand behind.

Actually, the NYT picked up an Associated Press story.

 

[buckwheat]

This is what's masterful to me: At his age, with his bickering, his twittering, his business savvy, his relentlessness and his athletic ability, enhanced or not, Armstrong MAKES himself relevant, drawing millions (?) to watch the sport, support his causes and continue to make a da*mn nice living for himself. I think whether you like him or not, whether you admire him or not, he's impressive, to say the least...

The mythology he created was a big part of the whole thing.

I also think Nike does an unbelievably effective job marketing their athletes, especially in the States.

The guy has an undeniably great story. It also helps that a lot of people aren't all that happy about having their illusions destroyed with things like the truth.

 

[Carboncrank]

(1) Because Johan was recruiting the team during the Tour de France

(2) AC had no team to recruit them to until November 2009.

(3) If you are referring to his new teammates, because he pays them. And the guy won 7 TdF in a row, as a professional athlete or fan of the sport, you have to respect that.

You are starting to give off a real trollish vibe.

(1) just how was he doing that? how do you convince top pros to leave the best rider in the world behind? What evidence of do you have? Why was there no loyalty to Alberto after the tour? Turn the tables and say it's Lance that is left behind and deserted by his team. You'd be in hog heaven. You'd have enough hate material from that alone to last years.

(2) Not true. Astana never dissolved. There hasn't been a moment between the tour and now when Astana didn't exist as a team.

(3) I'm not talking about his team mates. I'm talking about competitors and DS's from other teams.

Cycling forums are where the cranks are. So much so that tour riders joke about it.

here, if your not a lance hater you're called a fan boy and ganged up on. It's downright silly.

When Lance left originally I was plenty ready for him to be gone. I did just fine as a race fan without him in the sport.

But then to come back, with a disadvantage of age and a very bad crash to podium in the frickin' tour de France!! it was INTERESTING.

He continues to make it interesting, being successfully despite the wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth of people like you.

Far more interesting than a core group of cranks on this forum.

 

[Carboncrank]

The mythology he created was a big part of the whole thing.

I also think Nike does an unbelievably effective job marketing their athletes, especially in the States.

The guy has an undeniably great story. It also helps that a lot of people aren't all that happy about having their illusions destroyed with things like the truth.

If you win the tour de France seven times in a row you aren't a myth, you are a legend.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

If you win the tour de France seven times in a row you aren't a myth, you are a legend.

Man, imagine how much money the salad-tossers would save on toothpaste if we didn't have all these Armstrong threads.

 

[Publicus]

(1) just how was he doing that? how do you convince top pros to leave the best rider in the world behind? What evidence of do you have? Why was there no loyalty to Alberto after the tour? Turn the tables and say it's Lance that is left behind and deserted by his team. You'd be in hog heaven. You'd have enough hate material from that alone to last years.

(2) Not true. Astana never dissolved. There hasn't been a moment between the tour and now when Astana didn't exist as a team.

(3) I'm not talking about his team mates. I'm talking about competitors and DS's from other teams.

Cycling forums are where the cranks are. So much so that tour riders joke about it.

here, if your not a lance hater you're called a fan boy and ganged up on. It's downright silly.

When Lance left originally I was plenty ready for him to be gone. I did just fine as a race fan without him in the sport.

But then to come back, with a disadvantage of age and a very bad crash to podium in the frickin' tour de France!! it was INTERESTING.

He continues to make it interesting, being successfully despite the wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth of people like you.

Far more interesting than a core group of cranks on this forum.

(1) Since you are so up on things, I assume you know who said this:

“It is no secret. It was a bizarre, unpleasant situation. I was empty inside. I knew then that we would leave Astana, that I had a great new partner in RadioShack and that we would take the guys and the staff with us."

You should peruse the cyclingnews archives for more stories from riders signed to Radio Shack from Astana who say they were approached during the TdF.

(2) Astana's management was busy starting up Radio Shack and decidedly NOT running the team. Again, if you are as knowledgeable about the course of events as you purport to be, then you know your statement is a crock. If not, then perhaps spend some time with the cyclingnews archives, they covered the never ending drama of where AC would land in 2010 as good as anyone.

(3) Don't know the entire peloton or their feelings on Lance Armstrong.

 

[Mellow Velo]

The dissolution of "New" Astana, started well before the Tour.
Certainly, it was underway at the time of the Giro, probably well before, when JB broke the 'no wages' story. It came, in tandem, with the announcement of the LA/JB looking for sponsors for a new PT team.
Coincidence?

What I found most revealing was the initial reaction of Chris Horner, in saying he had never NOT been paid.
The Spanish contingent, who now still reside at Astana, said the same.
The Discovery old guard, plus Kloden etc, all followed the script and the Radio Shack exodus.
Coincidence?

Horner, meantime, more or less took the fifth and the exit door.
An anonymous donation?

The point being, loyalty, in pro cycling terms, is bought, not necessarily earned.

 

[Race Radio]

If you win the tour de France seven times in a row you aren't a myth, you are a legend.

leg·end
n
A romanticized or popularized myth of modern times.

 

[buckwheat]

leg·end
n
A romanticized or popularized myth of modern times.

Hah! I knew that romance underpinned the legend.

Lance is so good as the recipient of unrequited love.

 

[ravens]

Hah! I knew that romance underpinned the legend.

Lance is so good as the recipient of unrequited love.

No matter how much worship he gets from his fans, it never seems to be enough for him or for them, either. I think they have to elevate him to legend status just to be able to sustain this messianic love of him.

If it wasn't laughable, it would be sickening.

 

[Señor_Contador]

The dissolution of "New" Astana, started well before the Tour.
Certainly, it was underway at the time of the Giro, probably well before, when JB broke the 'no wages' story. It came, in tandem, with the announcement of the LA/JB looking for sponsors for a new PT team.
Coincidence?

What I found most revealing was the initial reaction of Chris Horner, in saying he had never NOT been paid.
The Spanish contingent, who now still reside at Astana, said the same.
The Discovery old guard, plus Kloden etc, all followed the script and the Radio Shack exodus.
Coincidence?

Horner, meantime, more or less took the fifth and the exit door.
An anonymous donation?

The point being, loyalty, in pro cycling terms, is bought, not necessarily earned.

You actually made lots of good points.

To add to what you've said, in an interview to Diario Vasco, Haimar Zubeldia said "En Astana he cobrado lo que tenía firmado", which translates to "At Astana I got paid all that I signed up for".

The more you put the pieces of the puzzle together the more you realise Lance Armstrong and Johan Bruyneed are two coniving, backstabbin' a-holes.

They probably had this all sorted out even before AC went to the Paris-Nice of 2009. The main problem was that Contador, unexpectedly, became the best cyclist of the moment and they could've get rid of him. That's probably why he was sent to the Giro in 2008, which he agreed to without a single complaint (and while he was on vacation), and the deer-in-the-headlights look on Bruyneel when the Spaniard won it.

He then knew he was in for the long haul... until the no-paygate came along.

 

[lagartija]

No no.. you don't get to claim some superior powers of recall.

I recorded and re watched every stage and read all I could get my hands on including sometimes wading through google translations in the foreign press.

Contador made tactical errors and still won. He was a lousy teammate who's been abandoned by the riders that rode with him.

He's no saint, he's not invulerable, he's not beyond reproach, and neither are you.

so who said anything about berto being a saint?
how is he a lousy teammate , can you provide specifics?
exactly when and where did these tactical errors occur ?
abandoned? really maybe you should talk to Benjamin Noval or Jesus Hernandez, or maybe Alex Vinokourov about abandonment issues.
or maybe even Tom Boonen who was sitting 3 wheels back from Contador when the split happened on stage 4.
oh and by the way i dont need wade through google for information, i do well in multiple languages for something a little closer to accurate interpretation ..................

 

[Carboncrank]

(1) Since you are so up on things, I assume you know who said this:



You should peruse the cyclingnews archives for more stories from riders signed to Radio Shack from Astana who say they were approached during the TdF.

(2) Astana's management was busy starting up Radio Shack and decidedly NOT running the team. Again, if you are as knowledgeable about the course of events as you purport to be, then you know your statement is a crock. If not, then perhaps spend some time with the cyclingnews archives, they covered the never ending drama of where AC would land in 2010 as good as anyone.

(3) Don't know the entire peloton or their feelings on Lance Armstrong.

Astana almost lost it's license over not paying the team. The handwriting was on the wall from that point on. If the people that are running Astan now were slow on the uptake it's shame on them.

Conversations about who's going where in future years are commonplace ON ALL TEAMS and it's certainly not a scandal that Johan would have such conversations last year.
It doesn't appear to me to have been much of a distraction or source of friction considering the record of the team and the FACT that they won the tour de frikin' France.

If you don't know about how most of the peloton feels about Lance it's because you hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest.

 

[Publicus]

Astana almost lost it's license over not paying the team. The handwriting was on the wall from that point on. If the people that are running Astan now were slow on the uptake it's shame on them.

Conversations about who's going where in future years are commonplace ON ALL TEAMS and it's certainly not a scandal that Johan would have such conversations last year.
It doesn't appear to me to have been much of a distraction or source of friction considering the record of the team and the FACT that they won the tour de frikin' France.

If you don't know about how most of the peloton feels about Lance it's because you hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest.

I believe you were the one that demanded proof that Johan was recruiting the Radio Shack team during the Tour de France, I provided a quote from Lance that backed that up. Now it is irrelevant because everyone does it. Uh huh. You should probably sit down and have a conversation with yourself later about the about concept of consistency. It will help your credibility tremendously.

And yes, they won the Tour de France, in spite of, JB and LA's shenanigans. That doesn't excuse the behavior in my book, but it certainly underscores the tension going on within the team and with the tactics selected.

As for the last part, I make it a point not to speak on behalf of folks I don't know or don't have a working knowledge of their position on a subject. I don't know what the rest of the peloton thinks about Lance, so I'm not going to speak on it. You should try that sometime.

 

[Carboncrank]

so who said anything about berto being a saint?
how is he a lousy teammate , can you provide specifics?
exactly when and where did these tactical errors occur ?
abandoned? really maybe you should talk to Benjamin Noval or Jesus Hernandez, or maybe Alex Vinokourov about abandonment issues.
or maybe even Tom Boonen who was sitting 3 wheels back from Contador when the split happened on stage 4.
oh and by the way i dont need wade through google for information, i do well in multiple languages for something a little closer to accurate interpretation ..................

Ohh.. speaks mutliple languages! I should cower in a corner I guess.

Doesn't appear to have done you much good considering none of the three riders you mention were on the Tour team. (and to include Vino's name is just plain ignorant. Nobody but Astana would even want Vino. Did the sport ever have a more slam dunk blood doping case than the one against Vino?)
Correct me if I'm wrong but NONE of the riders on the tour team appear to be on Alberto's team any longer. None, zip, bubcus, zilch, nada. Not even Muravyev, who is Kazakhstani, stayed.

Oh by the way, thanks for reminding me again of Alberto's first tactical error of the tour, missing the split in stage 4.

One last thing. IMO, Vino will turn out to be a far worse problem for Alberto than Lance ever was. He's a true nut job and will somehow screw up again.

 

[Carboncrank]

You actually made lots of good points.

To add to what you've said, in an interview to Diario Vasco, Haimar Zubeldia said "En Astana he cobrado lo que tenía firmado", which translates to "At Astana I got paid all that I signed up for".

That does not mean he got paid when he was supposed to.
Look, Astana almost lost his license over it.
"The UCI had threatened to rescind the team's ProTour license after the team's wages were reportedly not paid for two months."

Now you cranks want to claim Johan and Lance conspired to make it all up?
how frikin' idiotic.

The more you put the pieces of the puzzle together the more you realise Lance Armstrong and Johan Bruyneed are two coniving, backstabbin' a-holes.

They probably had this all sorted out even before AC went to the Paris-Nice of 2009. The main problem was that Contador, unexpectedly, became the best cyclist of the moment and they could've get rid of him. That's probably why he was sent to the Giro in 2008, which he agreed to without a single complaint (and while he was on vacation), and the deer-in-the-headlights look on Bruyneel when the Spaniard won it.

He then knew he was in for the long haul... until the no-paygate came along.

Saying Contador became the cyclist of the moment in 09, or even 08 sounds pretty stupid considering he'd already won the tour de Frikin' France by then. And more stupid to think they'd want to get rid of him even last year when he was clearly the favorite to win tour.

He was thrilled to get the chance to be in the Giro that year. They all were. A last minute invite was far better than no invite at all. You see, (sarcasm on) the Giro d'Italia is what the call a Grand tour event. It's one of three pillars of the sport. (sarcasm off)

We pretty much all had the deer-in-the-headlights look when Alberto won it. It stands as one of the most astounding achievements of the entire sport.

 

[Publicus]

That does not mean he got paid when he was supposed to.
Look, Astana almost lost his license over it.
"The UCI had threatened to rescind the team's ProTour license after the team's wages were reportedly not paid for two months."

Now you cranks want to claim Johan and Lance conspired to make it all up?
how frikin' idiotic.


Saying Contador became the cyclist of the moment in 09, or even 08 sounds pretty stupid considering he'd already won the tour de Frikin' France by then. And more stupid to think they'd want to get rid of him even last year when he was clearly the favorite to win tour.

He was thrilled to get the chance to be in the Giro that year. They all were. A last minute invite was far better than no invite at all. You see, (sarcasm on) the Giro d'Italia is what the call a Grand tour event. It's one of three pillars of the sport. (sarcasm off)

We pretty much all had the deer-in-the-headlights look when Alberto won it. It stands as one of the most astounding achievements of the entire sport.

Reading is not only fundamental, but so is comprehending what you read.

 

[Carboncrank]

The dissolution of "New" Astana, started well before the Tour.
Certainly, it was underway at the time of the Giro, probably well before, when JB broke the 'no wages' story. It came, in tandem, with the announcement of the LA/JB looking for sponsors for a new PT team.
Coincidence?

What I found most revealing was the initial reaction of Chris Horner, in saying he had never NOT been paid.
The Spanish contingent, who now still reside at Astana, said the same.

The Spanish contingent? like Zubeldia who was the only other Spanish rider on the tour team, that Abandoned Alberto's team for Radio Shack? That Spanish contingent? You probably mean the Spanish contingent that Radio Shack didn't want.

The Discovery old guard, plus Kloden etc, all followed the script and the Radio Shack exodus.
Coincidence?

So, your saying UCI was wrong? The Astana backers were paid up all along. That's really your position despite all the press on it. You're claiming that here, on the forum with a long history of being Lance hating cranks, you've uncovered a fraud perpetrated by Lance and JB to claim the team was owed money when in fact (although there is no fact) they had not.

That is your claim?

The point being, loyalty, in pro cycling terms, is bought, not necessarily earned.

And your view about the athletes of the sport you revere, that arguably work harder than any other sport, and compete in event that are so hard as to almost be cruel, they're only in it for the money?

Her's what I think. They love the sport, and having the best chance to win and get their name in the history books as great racers, whether it's GC, sprints, Climbing or even to be known as the greatest support rider means everything to them. Money comes from winning. Loyalty helps you win. Especially in cycling. I can't believe you don't know that.

Loyalty is bought not earned you say. Really, that's what you say. I just want to make sure you read it back to yourself as you own words.

Actually, Lance couldn't be on of the non paid riders during that time because he didn't draw a salary from the team at all.

 

[Carboncrank]

Reading is not only fundamental, but so is comprehending what you read.

do you have a point to that?