British politics

[Amsterhammer]

Britain has voted to leave the European Union, so the markets will crash.

There is no functional reason for the markets to crash, but investors are lemmings, and it takes only a few leaping off the cliff to begin a stampede of cliff divers.

Nothing real will change today. The exit from the EU will take months, years to accomplish, and meanwhile no one knows exactly how that will be accomplished.

Years ago, Britain was smart enough not to fall into the euro trap. So having their own currency, they have been Monetarily Sovereign, and tomorrow, they still will be. Britain always has had one financial foot out the EU door.

So Brexit will be more easily accomplished than a French “Frexit” or a Greek “Grexit.”

With all the doom and gloom claims, you might think some people know what will happen, but of course, they don’t.

https://mythfighter.com/2016/06/24/what-will-brexit-mean/

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

So the murder of Jo Cox was an act of group terrorism supported and endoresed by a large number of people in the UK and worldwide?

Interesting. Do you have the name of the group that was behind it?

No, the murder of Jo Cox was not an act of terrorism, but neither was Lee Rigby's murder last year.

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Scotland's first minister says another independence referendum is "highly likely".

Nicola Sturgeon said it was "democratically unacceptable" that Scotland faced the prospect of being taken out of the EU against its will.
She said the Scottish government would begin preparing legislation to enable another independence vote.
Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38%.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36621030

This could actually be a golden opportunity for Scotland to negotiate a really good devolved solution. I think Sturgeon's point is that (a) they want free trade (b) they want to choose on immigration (c) they want to protect workers rights (d) no nukes in Scotland.

Assuming (a) happens, then (b) and (c) could be fully devolved to Holyrood for them to choose.

(b) would be a Scottish work visa process, but not valid in the rest of the UK - not exactly free movement, but close.
(c) would be free for them to manage.
(d) could be moved to Wales / England.

I do wonder whether this is her back game at the moment, with 'Indy 2' being the nuke option.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

So the murder of Jo Cox was an act of group terrorism supported and endoresed by a large number of people in the UK and worldwide?

Interesting. Do you have the name of the group that was behind it?

No, the murder of Jo Cox was not an act of terrorism, but neither was Lee Rigby's murder last year.

it was one of several such acts that has taken place in Europe over the last decade and there are groups who specifically call for and then praise them..

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

Catastrophic. However, needed. EU has too many bureaucracy and too less of a free market. It's falling apart and this Brexit win isn't a vote against the EU, but rather a vote against the current route of it.

It's not catastrophic.
When they split Czechoslovakia nobody was hurt and the economics of both countries grew. In fact, I think the relationships between Czechs and Slovaks are better nowdays.
Brits know the concept of EU is wrong, ruled by corporations instead of people, and it's better to get divorced then to live in failed marriage.
Good luck, Britain.

Czechoslovakia separated and embraced capitalism. That single fact is more than enough to destroy your rhetoric.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry, but people who voted leave have their own reasons for doing so, and no one, not you, not hedge funds, allies, "experts" etc, no one, has the right to tell these people what their interests are and what they should vote for. You don't live their lives for them

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge". —Carl Sagan

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge". —Carl Sagan

Who cares about what smart people or experts say, anyway?

Speaking of smart people:

 

[gooner]

Not bothered one way about how the vote transpired but I see a lot of ignorance by sections of the Remain vote to older people who voted to Leave as if their vote means less. Experience and knowledge counts for nothing.

"Older people know your role, that is unless you are on the Remain side".

All Northern Irish people are entitled to an Irish passport and there has been a big increase in applications for them, even from Unionist areas.

 

[ferryman]

Re:

Scotland's first minister says another independence referendum is "highly likely".

i think many in england would jump to vote them out....given opportunity

scotland's population is less than 10% that of the uk......but they are given a

disproportionate voice.....

Mark L

I would love to see that. Let English voters vote on Idyref2 as well. You do realise how desperate 'you' wanted to keep 'us' in 2014. what's changed?

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

....speaking of curious.....there is apparently a great outcry from Brit youth that the leave vote really doesn't do them any favours...does anyone know what % of the youth voters bloc actually voted....

Cheers

Remember seeing somewhere that turnout for 18-24yos was 67%, while the national average was 72%

....thanks for the response....so it appears that if the post Brexit concerns had been more fully acted upon during the vote the youth could well not be in the position they find themselves now....too bad because voting is such a simple thing to do....

....bottom line is that it may not be the old vote that screwed the youth but rather the youth by sitting on their duffs screwed themselves....if true, too bad, so sad....

Cheers

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry, but people who voted leave have their own reasons for doing so, and no one, not you, not hedge funds, allies, "experts" etc, no one, has the right to tell these people what their interests are and what they should vote for. You don't live their lives for them

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge". —Carl Sagan

People you consider stupid have to live in the country same as everyone else. That's why they get a vote and why their vote counts just as much as anyone elses.

 

[roundabout]

Not bothered one way about how the vote transpired but I see a lot of ignorance by sections of the Remain vote to older people who voted to Leave as if their vote means less. Experience and knowledge counts for nothing.

"Older people know your role, that is unless you are on the Remain side".

All Northern Irish people are entitled to an Irish passport and there has been a big increase in applications for them, even from Unionist areas.

What was promised to people of pension age anyway to make them vote the way the did?

If there was no tangible benefit presented and if there is comparatively less downside for them (I'll happily defer to someone with more knowledge of the pension system on this matter) should the economy underperform post-EU, I can see why the younger voter might put less value on their votes.

 

[The Hitch]

Not bothered one way about how the vote transpired but I see a lot of ignorance by sections of the Remain vote to older people who voted to Leave as if their vote means less. Experience and knowledge counts for nothing.

"Older people know your role, that is unless you are on the Remain side".

For once I agree 100% with you

 

[ebandit]

Re: Re:

Scotland's first minister says another independence referendum is "highly likely".

i think many in england would jump to vote them out....given opportunity

scotland's population is less than 10% that of the uk......but they are given a

disproportionate voice.....

I would love to see that. Let English voters vote on Idyref2 as well. You do realise how desperate 'you' wanted to keep 'us' in 2014. what's changed?

just a few years ago i would have spoken passionately upon the benefits of eec

membership.....i voted to leave

following the scots referendum i watched trainspotting again .......

Mark L

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

People you consider stupid have to live in the country same as everyone else. That's why they get a vote and why their vote counts just as much as anyone elses.

Of course I don't consider them stupid. I just expect them to inform themselves and pay at least some attention to the experts before making such a momentous decision. Is that too much to ask?

 

[blutto]

Not bothered one way about how the vote transpired but I see a lot of ignorance by sections of the Remain vote to older people who voted to Leave as if their vote means less. Experience and knowledge counts for nothing.

"Older people know your role, that is unless you are on the Remain side".

For once I agree 100% with you

...yup...and this attitude seems to disproportionately drive a great deal of the post vote coverage....its even become fodder for the official jester of the self appointed intellectual high court in Merika....but jeez the only real problem is that the smart people hadn't voted in sufficient numbers, and that doesn't look that smart today does it....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

People you consider stupid have to live in the country same as everyone else. That's why they get a vote and why their vote counts just as much as anyone elses.

Of course I don't consider them stupid. I just expect them to inform themselves and pay at least some attention to the experts before making such a momentous decision. Is that too much to ask?

...or is it too much to ask just to make a small effort to vote....

Cheers

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: Re:

People you consider stupid have to live in the country same as everyone else. That's why they get a vote and why their vote counts just as much as anyone elses.

Of course I don't consider them stupid. I just expect them to inform themselves and pay at least some attention to the experts before making such a momentous decision. Is that too much to ask?

...or is it too much to ask just to make a small effort to vote....

Cheers

To be fair nearly 73% turnout is a pretty decent effort, much higher than the last 5 general elections.

 

[roundabout]

Well, I could be wrong here, but at a glance the 16-24 age group is roughly about 8 million people, so getting off their "duffs" and having a turnout in line with the average would not have been enough.

Edit: 18-24 age group is probably closer to 6 million.

 

[del1962]

-So Dave decides to promise a referendum to stop Nigel in his tracks in an election Dave doesn't think he will win overall but expects to go into coalition with that guy every one has forgot about, was he called Nick.

Dave wins the eletction without the need for the guy no one remembers, which means Ed resigns and Jez replaces him. Now Jez wants to leave but doesnt say it.

Along comes the referendum and Nigel obviously wants to leave, Boz wants to stay but says he wants to leave as he wants Daves job and Jez says he wants to stay but only half heartedly as he wants to leave but those who got him his postion overwhemingly want to stay.

So Dave says if we leave we will sink into the sea without trace or something like that, maybe he was exaggerating.
Nigel being Nigel says nasty things about the other.
Boris does what he does best, says something he doesnt mean to get the laughs, at Jez doesnt say much that anyone is interested in.

The Nicola says she wants us to stay but hopes we leave while hoping those north of the wall want to stay, so those north of the wall can have another referendum.

The vote comes, Dave resigns, Nigel is jubilant, Jez says leave immediatialy and Boris eyes Dave's vacant job.

Does that sum it up?

 

[The Hitch]

Politically, that was one hell of a gamble from Boris, when it seemed near certain remain would win. Seems to have paid off big time.

 

[Amsterhammer]

If you look at the age breakdown posted earlier together with this votes by region map, it's easy to see why lots of people in lots of places are seriously unhappy today.

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

Scotland's first minister says another independence referendum is "highly likely".

i think many in england would jump to vote them out....given opportunity

scotland's population is less than 10% that of the uk......but they are given a

disproportionate voice.....

I would love to see that. Let English voters vote on Idyref2 as well. You do realise how desperate 'you' wanted to keep 'us' in 2014. what's changed?

just a few years ago i would have spoken passionately upon the benefits of eec

membership.....i voted to leave

following the scots referendum i watched trainspotting again .......

Mark L

Trainspotting is brilliant. McGregor puts it perfectly how the Scots and English are and in particular the English

 

[Amsterhammer]

I recommend this long, but quite excellent, historic perspective to all interested readers here.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/brexit-euroscepticism-history

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

Ah yes, the mindless nostalgia symptom.

You are right. "When I was young" politics was always conducted with morals, no one ever lied or exaggerated or said something that wasn't true, no politician anyway.

But now its the post factual era.

Okay, when was the last time a referendum result in the UK flew against the quasi-unanimous advice of economic, security, health care, labour and scientific experts, as well as the country's key allies and major trading partners?

I'm sorry, but people who voted leave have their own reasons for doing so, and no one, not you, not hedge funds, allies, "experts" etc, no one, has the right to tell these people what their interests are and what they should vote for. You don't live their lives for them

And advice is not fact.

Interests and values are just one component of good decision making. The other component is facts about how the world works. It matters a great deal what the actual implications of the Brexit are going to be, so that people can choose the option that's actually best for them, as opposed to merely what they believe is best for them. Arriving at reasonable conclusions about those implications requires substantial research or deference to the experts that have done that research. On many questions it comes down to the latter because people don't have the resources to do the research themselves.

'post fact ' is a very apt term for the attitude that amounts to not doing the research yet not deferring to the experts either.