Brits don't dope?

[thehog]

what about Cound?

Which one is Tori Spelling?

 

[Granville57]

I mean it's like Laurel and Hardy with those two.

From that Kimmage interview, I was seeing shades of Tyson/Givens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eUR-Y9wMk&spfreload=10

 

[blackcat]

From that Kimmage interview, I was seeing shades Tyson/Givens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eUR-Y9wMk&spfreload=10

Froome Cound about Vino

"not completely"

 

[thehog]

From that Kimmage interview, I was seeing shades Tyson/Givens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eUR-Y9wMk&spfreload=10

Is that Walsh or Walters

 

[blackcat]

Can a mod tell me why a xenophobic post full of sterotyping is allowed to be posted here?

sandhurst discipline

 

[blackcat]

It's called racism and wasn't funny the first 10,000 times they said it.

i admire your patience and resolve with the Green Bottles trope.

10 thousand certainly has a kinda sisyphean ring to it, with the stiff upper lip fortitude. most non-Brits might last out the 100 green bottles refrain, but their willpower stutters as they are not the alumni of Eton or Harrow or Gordonstoun.

 

[The Hitch]

Froome's story is so full of holes you gotta wonder who (besides Walsh) takes it seriously.
If you have time on your hands, the Badzilla thead gives a good overview.
You don't have to dig deep into that thread to find relevant questions.

I thought this was interesting:

A letter to the editor of the Zambia Post:



How Froome managed to be infected for years and not pass blood through his urine is pretty damn miraculous imo.
Just one of many examples (and one that your sister in law might be able to shed light on):

Well that isn't that big a deal. There is a difference between Bilharzia as a health problem in Africa, and the tiny and essentially insignificant issue of tourists from Europe who get Bilharzia but then go back to Europe (eg. Froome)

Europeans who get Bilharzia (less than 1000 every year, compared to several hundred million in Africa) get only a small sample of the disease since they only spend a small ammount of time in the lakes and in the country.

So its not unthinkeable at all that a European, would not suffer all the worst symptoms of Bilharzia. Or that any one patient won't suffer all the symptoms.

And whether or not froome suffered one particular symptom is also unimportant. And its a distraction that saturates the discussion. And allows sky defenders to falsely claim that Bilharzia is complicated.

Its not. Bilharzia is very clear cut. There is no way to reconcile Froome's story with reality. There's a reason why all sky fans absolutely refuse to take part in discussions about Bilharzia and only reappear once the discussion shifts to something else, so they can continue to pretend there is no evidence against Sky while ignoring the elephant in the room.

But unfortunately most people amongst Sky doubters, who bring up Bilharzia, also don't really understand the issue, or what the main points are.

 

[thehog]

I think the question is why he would lie about it?

What cover, if any, does it provide? The cover for form / transformation or ABP?

 

[The Hitch]

From that Kimmage interview, I was seeing shades of Tyson/Givens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eUR-Y9wMk&spfreload=10

Interestingly, on that vid there's a link to Tyson asked about the klitchkos and in it he is asked "are there steroids in boxing" and he says "absolutely".

Lol. Would be nice for some honesty like that in cycling or athletics.

 

[sniper]

Well that isn't that big a deal. There is a difference between Bilharzia as a health problem in Africa, and the tiny and essentially insignificant issue of tourists from Europe who get Bilharzia but then go back to Europe (eg. Froome)

Europeans who get Bilharzia (less than 1000 every year, compared to several hundred million in Africa) get only a small sample of the disease since they only spend a small ammount of time in the lakes and in the country.

So its not unthinkeable at all that a European, would not suffer all the worst symptoms of Bilharzia. Or that any one patient won't suffer all the symptoms.

And whether or not froome suffered one particular symptom is also unimportant. And its a distraction that saturates the discussion. And allows sky defenders to falsely claim that Bilharzia is complicated.

Its not. Bilharzia is very clear cut. There is no way to reconcile Froome's story with reality. There's a reason why all sky fans absolutely refuse to take part in discussions about Bilharzia and only reappear once the discussion shifts to something else, so they can continue to pretend there is no evidence against Sky while ignoring the elephant in the room.

But unfortunately most people amongst Sky doubters, who bring up Bilharzia, also don't really understand the issue, or what the main points are.

fair points.
I'm certainly not knowledgeable on the topic, but the contradictions in froome's story are pretty patent. But then again we're probably not in need of a medical specialist to confirm that. It's clear for laymen to see.
To be sure, my post was more of a subtle attempt to move this discussion to the appropriate thread (the Badzilla thread), which contains a lot of relevant discussion and from where more relevant medical questions can probably be drawn by Ferryman.

 

[the sceptic]

I think the question is why he would lie about it?

What cover, if any, does it provide? The cover for form / transformation or ABP?

I think sky had no idea Dawg was about to transform into the new Riis.

Otherwise they would have given us the badzilla story earlier, to make it more plausible. But since there is 0 mention of badzilla before that vuelta, I'm going to assume they just threw it out there as food for the bots.

Also I doubt they need an excuse for the UCI and the passport, sky would already be protected as one of the big teams and with the Leinders Zorzoli connect.

So yes, I think the badzilla is just to make the bots sleep easier at night.

 

[thehog]

I think sky had no idea Dawg was about to transform into the new Riis.

Otherwise they would have given us the badzilla story earlier, to make it more plausible. But since there is 0 mention of badzilla before that vuelta, I'm going to assume they just threw it out there as food for the bots.

Also I doubt they need an excuse for the UCI and the passport, sky would already be protected as one of the big teams and with the Leinders Zorzoli connect.

So yes, I think the badzilla is just to make the bots sleep easier at night.

Yes the story was drummed up during the Vuelta. He also talks about 'riding conservatively', which is bizarre because he spent a lot of time on the front working for Wiggins in that race.

And of course it "eats red blood cells".

The rest is history...

VN: What has been key to your sudden success at the Vuelta?

CF: A lot of things have factored into the equation, but I would say a combination of things have helped. No. 1, I am in good health. I have been battling with my health the past couple of season.

VN: What kind of health problems did you have?

CF: Bilharzia – it’s a water-borne disease, which I found that I had it in December last year. It feeds on your red blood cells, for a cyclist, it was a nightmare. I must have touched some contaminated water somewhere in Africa. I probably had it for year before I found it. That just drained my immune system. I was always getting little colds and coughs, nothing serious, but it always kept me from being at 100-percent fitness.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...-the-vuelta-podium_192373#FfLbIhv1ZiQEEst4.99

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So, was he riddled with blood sucking parasites here or just like his teammate from Colombia on the juice:

We should ask Saint David of Millar.

 

[The Hitch]

Yes the story was drummed up during the Vuelta. He also talks about 'riding conservatively', which is bizarre because he spent a lot of time on the front working for Wiggins in that race.

And of course it "eats red blood cells".

The rest is history...

Hog, besides what you heard from Froome and read in Walsh's piece, what do you know about the relationship between schistosomiasis and red blood cells?

 

[thehog]

Hog, besides what you heard from Froome and read in Walsh's piece, what do you know about the relationship between schistosomiasis and red blood cells?

I do see the feeding of red blood cells a lot when it comes to schistosomiasis - in the articles I've read etc. I've also read that this is not the case.

The actual Badzhilla thread was very good started by Bro which goes into a lot of detail: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=21198&highlight=champions

And hence the question to Ferryman's sister; If there really was this "feeding" of red blood cells and that Froome had this infliction for so long then surely his ABP would have shown the anomaly? Even for himself or the Sky doctors to work out there might have been a problem. I'd also see that even if you go to your GP and complain of some of the symptoms they'd order a range of blood tests as a basic standard. Its the norm to do so. Even if not looking for Badzhilla they look for markers which might show there is a internal condition.

I don't believe that he had this thing inside of him that kept coming and going, without his knowledge and that the first round of treatment worked and then didn't work. And that he returned to Africa to only get it again and as of this year suddenly he was "cured".

Your knowledge is strong so please do weigh in with more relevant information.

The newly transformed schistosomulum may remain in the skin for 2 days before locating a post-capillary venule; from here the schistosomulum travels to the lungs where it undergoes further developmental changes necessary for subsequent migration to the liver. Eight to ten days after penetration of the skin, the parasite migrates to the liver sinusoids. ''S. japonicum'' migrates more quickly than ''S. mansoni'', and usually reaches the liver within 8 days of penetration. Juvenile ''S. mansoni'' and ''S. japonicum'' worms develop an oral sucker after arriving at the liver, and it is during this period that the parasite begins to feed on red blood cells.

2009/2010 - Contraction

"I probably had it for year before I found it." (Sep '11)

"I found it 18 months ago and they had probably been in my system for a year before that." (May '12)

Dec 2010 - Diagnosis (and presumably Treatment)

"Bilharzia – it’s a water-borne disease, which I found that I had it in December last year." (Sep '11)

March/April 2012 - Treatment

"I took the treatment three weeks ago and I've got to wait six months to see if it's still active or not." (May '12)

“The bilharzia is not totally cleared up. I did repeat the treatment about three months ago in March. I am clear for now. I need to go check again in August-September." (Jul '12)

“I had a two week treatment in April last year, and have since been clear of the parasite. I have it checked every six months to make sure it hasn't returned.” (Dec '12)

January 2013 - Check-Up (and inferred Treatment)

”I do go for a check-up every six months

 

[The Hitch]

You've read it does eat rbc's and you've read it doesnt? Well have you tried reconciling the 2? Finding out the disparity?

I remember discussing this with merckx indez on here and in pms. Schistosoma do "feed" on red blood cells

But the effevt itself is tiny to the point of being worthless. I remember mi pointing out that even in the absolute worst cases (mostly in children) it would have less than a 1% impact on hematocrit.

So what you may have read is not that schistosomaisis doesn't eat red blood cells (and if you read those words you may want to check the credibility of the source) but that it doesn't have any real effect on rbc count.

Froome is wrong to say that bilharzia destroyed his career by being a reverse epo but that in and of itself doesn't prove dishonesty (as other parts of his bilharzia story do). It would not be impossible for skys doctors to not see any difference in rbc count due to bilharzia. Walsh is incompetent to reprint things without checking them up and even more incompetent to then not question the doctor "no change" comments, but then we already knew Walsh is incompetent.

 

[thehog]

So what you may have read is not that schistosomaisis doesn't eat red blood cells (and if you read those words you may want to check the credibility of the source) but that it doesn't have any real effect on rbc count.

Thanks.

That being the case then I don't see it as a reason why he was able to go from mid pack mountain rider and 2-3 minutes down in ITTs to being able sprint up Pena with Cobo and to out TT Tony Martin.

ie when I read statements that it "eats", "munches on" RBCs or "reverse of EPO" then its not like its destroying you from the inside.

Or more to the point its not the reason why Froome was able to suddenly change his performances in such a dramatic fashion.

There are other inconsistencies with the claims given:

"It’s not something that just disappears. It’s a parasite. It lays eggs. They might be dormant, then the eggs hatch, then they lay more eggs" -

Completely false: Eggs laid in humans do not, and cannot hatch; they can only hatch in fresh water (after being excreted by humans). They also need interaction with snails before the hatched eggs can infect humans again. Source: Under Pathophysiology/Life Cycle -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosomiasis, also fairly common knowledge for those familiar with the infection

 

[blackcat]

You've read it does eat rbc's and you've read it doesnt? Well have you tried reconciling the 2? Finding out the disparity?

I remember discussing this with merckx indez on here and in pms. Schistosoma do "feed" on red blood cells

But the effevt itself is tiny to the point of being worthless. I remember mi pointing out that even in the absolute worst cases (mostly in children) it would have less than a 1% impact on hematocrit.

So what you may have read is not that schistosomaisis doesn't eat red blood cells (and if you read those words you may want to check the credibility of the source) but that it doesn't have any real effect on rbc count.

Froome is wrong to say that bilharzia destroyed his career by being a reverse epo but that in and of itself doesn't prove dishonesty (as other parts of his bilharzia story do). It would not be impossible for skys doctors to not see any difference in rbc count due to bilharzia. Walsh is incompetent to reprint things without checking them up and even more incompetent to then not question the doctor "no change" comments, but then we already knew Walsh is incompetent.

hitch, bilharzia is the secret marginal gain(s) like rowing coaches, and triathlon coaches.

add them together, banG!

why has not Contador included these coaches from other disciplines in his regimen? just a bone idle w@anker obviously.

you can tell how Steve Redgrave was so successful. apart from the doping a'course.

Steve Redgrave employed rowing coaches, rowing coaches plural. such genius.

 

[blackcat]

Walsh is incompetent to reprint things without checking them up and even more incompetent to then not question the doctor "no change" comments, but then we already knew Walsh is incompetent.

maybe competent.

just venal

 

[blackcat]

So, was he riddled with blood sucking parasites here or just like his teammate from Colombia on the juice:

We should ask Saint David of Millar.

nah, just ask John Robertson, before the Claudio Corti putsch. Robertson by all reports, good guy. But Robertson my mail said, might have been a bigger help too.

 

[ray j willings]

That's fair enough.

Can I ask you a question.
If a hypothetical team had hired a known doping Dr and that teams results and performances greatly improved from the previous year and a rider who has never shown in any previous form that he could be a GT contender and all of a sudden starts riding and competing at a level he has never reached before and his times up the mountains on his tour winning year were some of the quickest and were quicker than that of known doped riders ,would that not at least raise eyebrows?
I know the Sky story I have seen the video and I would imagine that's where your truth lay. But surly you could at least acknowledge that with the facts we know and the history and culture of cycling the views of some of us do have merit and are bit more than just being anti Sky for the sake of it.

I did try but TWH does not want to play

 

[sniper]

I think sky had no idea Dawg was about to transform into the new Riis.

Otherwise they would have given us the badzilla story earlier, to make it more plausible. But since there is 0 mention of badzilla before that vuelta, I'm going to assume they just threw it out there as food for the bots.

Also I doubt they need an excuse for the UCI and the passport, sky would already be protected as one of the big teams and with the Leinders Zorzoli connect.

So yes, I think the badzilla is just to make the bots sleep easier at night.

agree with this.

Leinders-Zorzoli, indeed,
and more generally McQuaid's / UCI's interest in opening up the UK cycling market and let a British team shine in the year of the London Games.
The McQuaid-BC link goes back to the 2008 olympics.

"You have got to forgive me now Chris!" pleaded UCI President Pat McQuaid half jokingly as he presented the medal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...ian-after-third-gold-in-Beijing-Olympics.html

 

[ferryman]

Ok, thanks for the replies. I think I can ask some measured questions to be fair to both sides. I doubt any great insight to how the ABP was/wasn't affected will be forthcoming though! As I said, a little unscientific game. Will report back but please don't hold your breath for any great revelations but maybe some practical insight...cheers..

 

[blackcat]

I'm a bit p!ssed off the name (Radcliffe) hasn't come out in the main stream press yet.

As I said, no cheap jock lawyers. This is the athlete and IAAF acting together with the best.

Some like our friend oldcrank who bought into the story that she was cleans, might reflect why this very rich person decided to move to a location to avoid paying tax to the country that provided the majority of her wealth.

These people can never have enough of other people's money. It is a foundation stone of their lives. "I want more and I will lie and cheat to get it."

Oldcrank - how did you get the ticket to those championships where Radcliffe joined the athletes holding the protest banner ? Were you a guest of the IAAF or was it a UK inter-federation thing ?

 

[blackcat]

"Our out-of competition-testing is the envy of the athletics world, and should be the envy of other sports in Britain."...."

could be interpreted thru different lens no?