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Re: Re:
That would make some sense....
If people like Wiggins, froome and Thomas had shown even an ounce of gt talent in their early to mid 20s. Then you could say it's down to coaching (which wouldn't make much sense anyway since the coaching was based around track not road).
Seeing as how they all magically transformed mid career, it's clearly something else.
gazr99 said:
That would make some sense....
If people like Wiggins, froome and Thomas had shown even an ounce of gt talent in their early to mid 20s. Then you could say it's down to coaching (which wouldn't make much sense anyway since the coaching was based around track not road).
Seeing as how they all magically transformed mid career, it's clearly something else.
Re: Re:
Wiggins and Thomas are highly regarded as 2 of the most talented riders to come from Britain, who are known to have exceptionally big engines. Not a massive leap to see that they could survive in the mountains once they lost their track weight and have always trained road as well as track. Thomas was part of the academy which was based in the Italian hills.
The Hitch said:
Wiggins and Thomas are highly regarded as 2 of the most talented riders to come from Britain, who are known to have exceptionally big engines. Not a massive leap to see that they could survive in the mountains once they lost their track weight and have always trained road as well as track. Thomas was part of the academy which was based in the Italian hills.
Re:
Great post. I want to use the same logic to dismiss the ridiculous idea that Jamaica is good at sprinting.
See, in the last 100 years (random number purposely designed to make their actual domination look weaker) they have only won 15 out of 200 Sprint gold medals at Olympics and world championships. However, if we look beyond blue ribbon events and take into account smaller races where Jamaican athletes don't care to compete then it becomes 24 out of 1000.
And if we take away the ones they won (for some illogical reason) then they have 0 out of 1000.
Omg, clearly Jamaicans suck at sprinting after all.
kwikki said:Let's put this utter BS about British domination of GT races in perspective shall we.
In the last 10 years the number of British riders managing to get in the top 10 GC of the Giro has been ZERO.
In the last 10 years of the Vuelta GC tables, out of 100 places British riders have occupied THREE. If you remove Froome from the list (given that he had no cycling relationship with the UK until 2010...or at a push 2008 riding for a South African team based in UK) then the number is ONE.
As for the Tour de France, taking Froome out as a non-UK nurtured rider, out of 100 GC places over the last ten years UK riders have appeared in TWO places. Put Froome in and it is 5/100.
As for GT stage wins over the last 10 years, then apart from Cavendish (who accounts for the majority), and Froome and Wiggins you have 8/630.
That's some domination
Great post. I want to use the same logic to dismiss the ridiculous idea that Jamaica is good at sprinting.
See, in the last 100 years (random number purposely designed to make their actual domination look weaker) they have only won 15 out of 200 Sprint gold medals at Olympics and world championships. However, if we look beyond blue ribbon events and take into account smaller races where Jamaican athletes don't care to compete then it becomes 24 out of 1000.
And if we take away the ones they won (for some illogical reason) then they have 0 out of 1000.
Omg, clearly Jamaicans suck at sprinting after all.
Re: Re:
This trolling thing must be hard work. Your taking a guy who outclimbed everyone but froome at the 2012 tour de France and describing that as "surviving in the mountains ". And we both know there is 0 correlation between team pursuit and gts, but nice bait try anyway.gazr99 said:
Re: Re:
Yeah you're right, Wiggins is clearly one of the great GT riders of his generation out climbing everyone constantly, attacking whenever he liked. He might even be the first rider who's strength is in TT's to win a GT.
The Hitch said:
Yeah you're right, Wiggins is clearly one of the great GT riders of his generation out climbing everyone constantly, attacking whenever he liked. He might even be the first rider who's strength is in TT's to win a GT.
Re: Re:
If I didn't know better I'd be wondering if the reason why you bring up a totally irrelevant sport, a totally irrelevant nation, and a totally irrelevant time frame might be because you don't want to discuss the so-called domination of GT races by British riders in recent years.
The time frame isn't arbitrary, given the success of British riders is being touted as suspicious because it is so recent.
The removal of Froome isn't arbitrary either, given that his early life and career had nothing at all to do with Great Britain, and it is the Britishness that is being touted as suspicious.
You can flap around all you like trying to divert, and contort facts to fit a preconceived belief, but the GC tables for GT races are there set in stone.
Out of 300 GC places, in the 3 GT'S over 10 years, British riders including Froome have occupied 8.
That's some domination :lol:
Even if we just take the 4 years since UKs first GT win and only count wins, the UK still doesn't dominate. It has the same number of wins as Spain, But only 6/120 GC places.
Yeah. We dominate
The Hitch said:kwikki said:Let's put this utter BS about British domination of GT races in perspective shall we.
In the last 10 years the number of British riders managing to get in the top 10 GC of the Giro has been ZERO.
In the last 10 years of the Vuelta GC tables, out of 100 places British riders have occupied THREE. If you remove Froome from the list (given that he had no cycling relationship with the UK until 2010...or at a push 2008 riding for a South African team based in UK) then the number is ONE.
As for the Tour de France, taking Froome out as a non-UK nurtured rider, out of 100 GC places over the last ten years UK riders have appeared in TWO places. Put Froome in and it is 5/100.
As for GT stage wins over the last 10 years, then apart from Cavendish (who accounts for the majority), and Froome and Wiggins you have 8/630.
That's some domination
Great post. I want to use the same logic to dismiss the ridiculous idea that Jamaica is good at sprinting.
See, in the last 100 years (random number purposely designed to make their actual domination look weaker) they have only won 15 out of 200 Sprint gold medals at Olympics and world championships. However, if we look beyond blue ribbon events and take into account smaller races where Jamaican athletes don't care to compete then it becomes 24 out of 1000.
And if we take away the ones they won (for some illogical reason) then they have 0 out of 1000.
Omg, clearly Jamaicans suck at sprinting after all.
If I didn't know better I'd be wondering if the reason why you bring up a totally irrelevant sport, a totally irrelevant nation, and a totally irrelevant time frame might be because you don't want to discuss the so-called domination of GT races by British riders in recent years.
The time frame isn't arbitrary, given the success of British riders is being touted as suspicious because it is so recent.
The removal of Froome isn't arbitrary either, given that his early life and career had nothing at all to do with Great Britain, and it is the Britishness that is being touted as suspicious.
You can flap around all you like trying to divert, and contort facts to fit a preconceived belief, but the GC tables for GT races are there set in stone.
Out of 300 GC places, in the 3 GT'S over 10 years, British riders including Froome have occupied 8.
That's some domination :lol:
Even if we just take the 4 years since UKs first GT win and only count wins, the UK still doesn't dominate. It has the same number of wins as Spain, But only 6/120 GC places.
Yeah. We dominate
Re: Re:
Why haven't track riders from other nations started to kick ass on the road too? I mean 95% of the current peloton wouldn't look out of place as extras in Schindler's List, so losing "track weight" isn't the key to road success.
gazr99 said:
Why haven't track riders from other nations started to kick ass on the road too? I mean 95% of the current peloton wouldn't look out of place as extras in Schindler's List, so losing "track weight" isn't the key to road success.
Re: Re:
no one has seen this dynamic thru a lens of GBP or $$$.
The Eastern Europeans in the 80s and 90s had dominance in track endurance.
Then the centralised sporting system, even the army athletes, went away, and their talent moved to the road and continental Europe.
Brailsford was perhaps, the mastermind, but before he became chief of the national program, p'raps when he was a mere jobbing coach. Linda Mac time. When Rob Hayles and Millar are off to Cofidis, when much of the endurance program went to ride for Landbouwkrediet Colnago, and Colnago Tonissteiner, which was the team that became Chocolade Jacques, then Flandrian Topsport
(Vlaanderen Topsport) and Rambo Nico Eeckhout, I think it is the one team thru different sponsors... think British cycling may hav paid their wages in whatever Flemish francs they were paid in during 2003 period when they were in Belgium riding for that team...
what is my convoluted point?
Brailsford charted, or chartered, the weakspot in the cycling calendar, the quadrennial event, which was a sweetspot and prosperous confluence with the Lotteries money and incentive structure by the government to reward Olympic medals... the weakspot because the Eastern Euros were now on the road in continental Europe, and not in the army or whatever and riding on the boards. They left the track. There were no more talented riders on the track endurance competitions... now that is a tad hyperbolic, it is nigh hyperbole.
Here is the devil's advocate... if Wiggins was Canadian, or New Zealand, would he ever have got the High Road opportunity? About his only result of not. I mean, his only result of note, was his win with Saul Raisin on the bumpy stage in lAvenir...
He went thru Linda Mac, FDJ, CA, Cofidis... chiefly with zero to show for his time. Palmares... squat. His palmares was squat. And you could say he was not doping... but I would place little stock in this conceit, the guy would have been doing everything else what the UK endurance program were doing... which would not be more than anyone else, but it would not be less that anyone else...
Froome and Wigans got lucky, they got their opportunities at the right time, right team, right sport, right squad.
But do a mano a mano comparison with Raimondas Rumsas and Edita Rumsas, see how his time was better than second place Beloki when you net-out the team timetrial of ONCE, the TTT gave enough time for Beloki to be second ahead of Raimondas Rumsas on the podium in Paris behing Lance.
If Rumsas has all the opportunities of LAnce at USPS, he becomes the Tour winner.
Luck and politics play a major part in the result even before you hit the roads and tarmac asphalt and lime of France...
but this explanation is not as amusing as my Gordonstoun and muscular christianity rationale innit? but the Brits are no different from the Eastern Europeans, the Aussies, the Yanks, USPS, the kiwis. tout dope, tous dope, but this does not make them bad characters axiomatically, but it therefore goes, that my favourite player, Ricky Riccio does not deserve the opprobrium, he just had less political instinct and appreciation of this anti-doping agitprop that the Puritans put out in the UK and US and Australia, it makes all of those sportsmen, as criminals, when they just ride a damn bike.
gazr99 said:
no one has seen this dynamic thru a lens of GBP or $$$.
The Eastern Europeans in the 80s and 90s had dominance in track endurance.
Then the centralised sporting system, even the army athletes, went away, and their talent moved to the road and continental Europe.
Brailsford was perhaps, the mastermind, but before he became chief of the national program, p'raps when he was a mere jobbing coach. Linda Mac time. When Rob Hayles and Millar are off to Cofidis, when much of the endurance program went to ride for Landbouwkrediet Colnago, and Colnago Tonissteiner, which was the team that became Chocolade Jacques, then Flandrian Topsport
(Vlaanderen Topsport) and Rambo Nico Eeckhout, I think it is the one team thru different sponsors... think British cycling may hav paid their wages in whatever Flemish francs they were paid in during 2003 period when they were in Belgium riding for that team...
what is my convoluted point?
Brailsford charted, or chartered, the weakspot in the cycling calendar, the quadrennial event, which was a sweetspot and prosperous confluence with the Lotteries money and incentive structure by the government to reward Olympic medals... the weakspot because the Eastern Euros were now on the road in continental Europe, and not in the army or whatever and riding on the boards. They left the track. There were no more talented riders on the track endurance competitions... now that is a tad hyperbolic, it is nigh hyperbole.
Here is the devil's advocate... if Wiggins was Canadian, or New Zealand, would he ever have got the High Road opportunity? About his only result of not. I mean, his only result of note, was his win with Saul Raisin on the bumpy stage in lAvenir...
He went thru Linda Mac, FDJ, CA, Cofidis... chiefly with zero to show for his time. Palmares... squat. His palmares was squat. And you could say he was not doping... but I would place little stock in this conceit, the guy would have been doing everything else what the UK endurance program were doing... which would not be more than anyone else, but it would not be less that anyone else...
Froome and Wigans got lucky, they got their opportunities at the right time, right team, right sport, right squad.
But do a mano a mano comparison with Raimondas Rumsas and Edita Rumsas, see how his time was better than second place Beloki when you net-out the team timetrial of ONCE, the TTT gave enough time for Beloki to be second ahead of Raimondas Rumsas on the podium in Paris behing Lance.
If Rumsas has all the opportunities of LAnce at USPS, he becomes the Tour winner.
Luck and politics play a major part in the result even before you hit the roads and tarmac asphalt and lime of France...
but this explanation is not as amusing as my Gordonstoun and muscular christianity rationale innit? but the Brits are no different from the Eastern Europeans, the Aussies, the Yanks, USPS, the kiwis. tout dope, tous dope, but this does not make them bad characters axiomatically, but it therefore goes, that my favourite player, Ricky Riccio does not deserve the opprobrium, he just had less political instinct and appreciation of this anti-doping agitprop that the Puritans put out in the UK and US and Australia, it makes all of those sportsmen, as criminals, when they just ride a damn bike.
Re: Re:
Can you point to which British track riders have appeared on any GT final GC in the last 10 years, other than Wiggins?
Or have you got some other criteria for "kicking ****"?
BYOP88 said:
Can you point to which British track riders have appeared on any GT final GC in the last 10 years, other than Wiggins?
Or have you got some other criteria for "kicking ****"?
Re: Re:
Way to keep what I said in context. I also pointed out that Wiggins and Thomas have been seen for a longtime as 2 of the most talented riders to come from the UK, which is seen from their success on the track and road. Losing track weight has played a major role in their improvement in the mountains, which I thought would be obvious as being lighter helps you go up hill quicker and top of my head Gaviria and Rohan Dennis haven't done bad too bad
BYOP88 said:
Way to keep what I said in context. I also pointed out that Wiggins and Thomas have been seen for a longtime as 2 of the most talented riders to come from the UK, which is seen from their success on the track and road. Losing track weight has played a major role in their improvement in the mountains, which I thought would be obvious as being lighter helps you go up hill quicker and top of my head Gaviria and Rohan Dennis haven't done bad too bad
Re: Re:
Lemond was an extraordinary talent but he did nothing to contribute to the popularity of cycling in the US. And he was lightyears better than Boardman or any other Brit.
Actually, the rise in US cycling was fueled by doping. In the 80's the US was tired of being beaten up by Europeans with more sophisticated doping programs and decided to go all in and join them. That is the history and really is fact. There s a whole thread on that.gazr99 said:
Lemond was an extraordinary talent but he did nothing to contribute to the popularity of cycling in the US. And he was lightyears better than Boardman or any other Brit.
Re: Re:
Didn't say Lemond wasn't better than Boardman. Before Lemond how many professional US road cyclists or teams were there? Lemond winning yellow undoubtedly grabbed the publics attention. You can have the greatest doping program ever but it will never work if there aren't any riders to use it
veganrob said:
Didn't say Lemond wasn't better than Boardman. Before Lemond how many professional US road cyclists or teams were there? Lemond winning yellow undoubtedly grabbed the publics attention. You can have the greatest doping program ever but it will never work if there aren't any riders to use it
Re: Re:
Big engines fed by epo makes for good climbing. Big engines dont make for good climbing they make for average climbing if the climb is consistent and a rider can get into a rythym.
Wiggins transformed from grupetto fodder to GT winner, with PEDs not because he lost some weight. Stop with the myths.
gazr99 said:
Big engines fed by epo makes for good climbing. Big engines dont make for good climbing they make for average climbing if the climb is consistent and a rider can get into a rythym.
Wiggins transformed from grupetto fodder to GT winner, with PEDs not because he lost some weight. Stop with the myths.
Re: Re:
actually, losing the EXTRA weight, if the control sample is the GC riders of 7 years ago.
It is a combination of AICAR, lipotropin, GW1516, liquid rectal nutrition diet feeding method,
cortisone and gh existed a decade back. They existed the time during Froome at Barloworld when he was still a very lean GC rider, albeit 15lbs heavier. And Wigans at HighRoad, when, pending the year, say, on Olympic year, he was p'raps 25lbs heavier than his Sky weight for GC and tdf, Wiggins lightest weight, say, a 2009 High Road/Columbia, pre-GC road weight, when still lean road weight, he was prolly 20lbs heavier than his Sky road weight for his tdf win in 2011.
How does he get leaner and lighter? The above pharmaceuticals, plus rectum feeding thru a tube.
Froome copies him.
Now if you look at some other riders, that have lost some weight... Nibali looks about 5lbs lighter, minimum, when he won GTs at the other normal GC GT weight. Valverde lost a few lbs too. Now Tejay also looks about 5lbs lighter, his arms rendered of all tissue. Priapus with a greater circumference than his upper arms. LRP about 5lbs leaner too. Chris Horner lost about 10lbs in 2010, and his tt fell off the cliff, but he won the Vuelta. I wonder what Cuddles could have done on the Froome program, he prolly could have dropped 10lbs, plus improved his chrono, he would have been timetralling like Ullrich in 97 and climbing like Riis in 96
BYOP88 said:
actually, losing the EXTRA weight, if the control sample is the GC riders of 7 years ago.
It is a combination of AICAR, lipotropin, GW1516, liquid rectal nutrition diet feeding method,
cortisone and gh existed a decade back. They existed the time during Froome at Barloworld when he was still a very lean GC rider, albeit 15lbs heavier. And Wigans at HighRoad, when, pending the year, say, on Olympic year, he was p'raps 25lbs heavier than his Sky weight for GC and tdf, Wiggins lightest weight, say, a 2009 High Road/Columbia, pre-GC road weight, when still lean road weight, he was prolly 20lbs heavier than his Sky road weight for his tdf win in 2011.
How does he get leaner and lighter? The above pharmaceuticals, plus rectum feeding thru a tube.
Froome copies him.
Now if you look at some other riders, that have lost some weight... Nibali looks about 5lbs lighter, minimum, when he won GTs at the other normal GC GT weight. Valverde lost a few lbs too. Now Tejay also looks about 5lbs lighter, his arms rendered of all tissue. Priapus with a greater circumference than his upper arms. LRP about 5lbs leaner too. Chris Horner lost about 10lbs in 2010, and his tt fell off the cliff, but he won the Vuelta. I wonder what Cuddles could have done on the Froome program, he prolly could have dropped 10lbs, plus improved his chrono, he would have been timetralling like Ullrich in 97 and climbing like Riis in 96
Re: Re:
The guy everyone calls 'G'. So if those 2 can do it why haven't F/E the Aussie's, Kiwi's or Danish been able to get a rider to drop track weight(can't be that hard), maintain power(on the flat and ITT's) and climb as fast as guys who were mainlining EPO and win/top 15 a GT?
I'm guessing Sky and British cycling fans are hoping Kennaugh can do well in a GT too.
kwikki said:
The guy everyone calls 'G'. So if those 2 can do it why haven't F/E the Aussie's, Kiwi's or Danish been able to get a rider to drop track weight(can't be that hard), maintain power(on the flat and ITT's) and climb as fast as guys who were mainlining EPO and win/top 15 a GT?
I'm guessing Sky and British cycling fans are hoping Kennaugh can do well in a GT too.
Re: Re:
Lemod was an outlier. I live in the US and remember very well how much publicity was generated for Lemond. A small paragraph at the bottom of the sixth page. The Olympics were and are much bigger than the TdF here.
you've missed my point. There was still cycling going on at the time, but until thr docs were able to transform those numerous pack fodder into medals did cycling start to get more attention.gazr99 said:
Lemod was an outlier. I live in the US and remember very well how much publicity was generated for Lemond. A small paragraph at the bottom of the sixth page. The Olympics were and are much bigger than the TdF here.
Re: Re:
Those two can't do it. Geraint Thomas has never got in the GC of GT.
(Assuming you understand that GT= TdF, Giro, Vuelta. GC=top ten)
Wiggins is the only track rider to do so.
BYOP88 said:
Those two can't do it. Geraint Thomas has never got in the GC of GT.
(Assuming you understand that GT= TdF, Giro, Vuelta. GC=top ten)
Wiggins is the only track rider to do so.
Re: Re:
Wiggins woulda been on the track endurance enhancement PED program for those nascent road years /alliterationz/tautologicpleonasmp[sic]
think the Wiggins clean, Lemond clean, specific Australian champions clean, think this premise just does not wash. its #bovinescatology
but did not #bovinescatology lead to #madcowdisease and #Oprah then harpo gave out the new lexus prius to those sycophantz in her audience
Benotti69 said:
Wiggins woulda been on the track endurance enhancement PED program for those nascent road years /alliterationz/tautologicpleonasmp[sic]
think the Wiggins clean, Lemond clean, specific Australian champions clean, think this premise just does not wash. its #bovinescatology
but did not #bovinescatology lead to #madcowdisease and #Oprah then harpo gave out the new lexus prius to those sycophantz in her audience
Re: Re:
So you're basically saying Wiggins decided he won't take PED's when everyone was doing it, he will wait for when the media are more focused on drugs on the peleton to start taking them.
It would be a shame if It turns out Wiggins did take PED's but I honestly get the feeling he didn't. I think focusing all his efforts on winning the tour, losing that extra weight and with a strong team behind him who played the tactics very well as well as the route suiting his strengths, all contributed to his success.
Benotti69 said:
So you're basically saying Wiggins decided he won't take PED's when everyone was doing it, he will wait for when the media are more focused on drugs on the peleton to start taking them.
It would be a shame if It turns out Wiggins did take PED's but I honestly get the feeling he didn't. I think focusing all his efforts on winning the tour, losing that extra weight and with a strong team behind him who played the tactics very well as well as the route suiting his strengths, all contributed to his success.
Re: Re:
yet. the caveat YET.
this was one of my thought insights into Wigans,
incentive, motivation, $$$$ and GBP
why if Wigans was a worldbeater, would he ride around for 100k GBP from 2000-2010, when Froome now is on about 5mill GBP and Armstrong on the same. If you are the most talented, you would beat everyone else and receive the highest financial rewards...
I would have liked to see a TdF where everyone had the same preparation, the same support team, and the same preparation doping, and intra tour doping.... and a fair TdF route
so lets see what Chavanel can do
Ullrich, Armstrong, Kloeden, Beloki, Rumsas, Chavanel, Boogerd, Andy Shleck, Gesink, TonyMartin, Wiggins, Froome, Basso, Landis... LANDIS... Evans, Mcgee, Mayo, Pantani, Vandenbroecke. Ricly Riccio
so previous doping infringements mean jack.
lets see who wins that race when everyone is on the good stuff. That would be entertaining.
kwikki said:
yet. the caveat YET.
this was one of my thought insights into Wigans,
incentive, motivation, $$$$ and GBP
why if Wigans was a worldbeater, would he ride around for 100k GBP from 2000-2010, when Froome now is on about 5mill GBP and Armstrong on the same. If you are the most talented, you would beat everyone else and receive the highest financial rewards...
I would have liked to see a TdF where everyone had the same preparation, the same support team, and the same preparation doping, and intra tour doping.... and a fair TdF route
so lets see what Chavanel can do
Ullrich, Armstrong, Kloeden, Beloki, Rumsas, Chavanel, Boogerd, Andy Shleck, Gesink, TonyMartin, Wiggins, Froome, Basso, Landis... LANDIS... Evans, Mcgee, Mayo, Pantani, Vandenbroecke. Ricly Riccio
so previous doping infringements mean jack.
lets see who wins that race when everyone is on the good stuff. That would be entertaining.
Re:
I find it unlikey that anyone riding a GT in recent years has been PED free.
kwikki said:
I find it unlikey that anyone riding a GT in recent years has been PED free.
Re: Re:
So the guy who finishes 11th or 15th or 140th at the Giro/Tour/Vuelta doesn't finish on GC?
kwikki said:
So the guy who finishes 11th or 15th or 140th at the Giro/Tour/Vuelta doesn't finish on GC?
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