Brits don't dope?

[sniper]

I don't know what ARD and ZDF paid for the Olympics.
No peanuts either I guess.
Still they have Seppelt over there doing his thang.
There is just no comparing with BBC's brainless hypocrit cheerleading.


And since when is "they paid so much" even a remotely legit apology for crap journalism?
I realize sports journalism is void of ethics, but why should we apologize that?

 

[kwikki]

You are viewing this issue from a simplistic perspective. There is plenty of coverage of Olympic doping issues outside of the actual event broadcasts.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Jamaica and Bolt do get their fair share of flack from the social media's antidoping trolls though, don't you think?

And the BBC doesn't? The absolute worst thing about having the UK as the noisy neighbours is that so many people over there believe that if they're not that absolute, absolute best at something then they have to be the absolute, absolute worst. Top or bottom of the league, they think the UK leads. But as Dara O'Briain points out, the really is mid-table mediocrity in most things. The BBC, they're not the best at pointing out the reality of doping, they're not the worst.

The moaning, I guess (not sure), has been about Britain getting too much flack relative to countries such as France, Spain, Russia, and Germany, not relative to Jamaica.

Move the goalposts why don't you? And ignore that I mentioned Russia while you're at it.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

And since when is "they paid so much" even a remotely legit apology for crap journalism?
I realize sports journalism is void of ethics, but why should we apologize that?

It's an explanation not a justification. And it's an explanation that is relevant to other nations, not just UK, a fact you seem incapable of admitting to yourself.

No one is saying you have to 'apologize that' - what I'm saying is get real, take off your blinkers and look at what is really happening in the rest of the world. The BBC is not all that special, hard as that is for some to accept.

 

[kwikki]

There was an entire BBC Panorama (bbc's flagship current affairs) programme devoted to demonstrating that doping is widespread in athletics. It focused on Salazar, Farah's coach, and although it didn't link Farah to doping (because it can't without concrete evidence) the whole subtext of the programme was about associating a champion British athlete with a doping coach.

The programne was heavily reported on in the press, and of course referenced in bbc news.

I suppose, in fairness to sniper, one cannot know about the programmes one doesn't watch.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

fmk:
And the BBC doesn't?

yes they do, and my point was that there's people moaning about that (and about general antibritish sentiments).

fmk:
The absolute worst thing about having the UK as the noisy neighbours is that so many people over there believe that if they're not that absolute, absolute best at something then they have to be the absolute, absolute worst. Top or bottom of the league, they think the UK leads. But as Dara O'Briain points out, the really is mid-table mediocrity in most things. The BBC, they're not the best at pointing out the reality of doping, they're not the worst.

fair enough, and agreed.

but still this is the BBC, they are (proud to be) considered the best state broadcaster of the world.
And so I think we're allowed to have the highest of expectations of them and hold them up against the highest of standards. Once one does that, one comes to disappointing conclusions, at least as far as doping coverage is concerned.
If one puts oneself on a pedestal, one should expect to receive more head wind.

fmk:
Move the goalposts why don't you? And ignore that I mentioned Russia while you're at it.

Can you show me Russian state media providing similar statements as the one I provided from BBC? Similar cheerleading about the cleanliness of the Olympics? Any remotely similar example will do.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

And since when is "they paid so much" even a remotely legit apology for crap journalism?
I realize sports journalism is void of ethics, but why should we apologize that?

It's an explanation not a justification. And it's an explanation that is relevant to other nations, not just UK, a fact you seem incapable of admitting to yourself.

No one is saying you have to 'apologize that' - what I'm saying is get real, take off your blinkers and look at what is really happening in the rest of the world. The BBC is not all that special, hard as that is for some to accept.

When did I say BBC is special? Don't put words in my mouth.
The question is do BBC deserve more flack than other state broadcasters?
They put themselves on the highest of horses, so the answer is yes.

BBC think Russia is special.

 

[kwikki]

Do you expect commentators to start finger pointing at certain athletes during Olympic events?

Again, there is plenty of coverage of doping issues outside of the event broadcasts on the BBC. By all means make a judgement. Just be aware that if you make it from what is obviously a narrow perspective you will have a whole bunch of people privately* laughing at you.

*British good manners means we'd never do it in public as unsubtle public humiliation of others isn't the British way.

 

[sniper]

Re:

There was an entire BBC Panorama (bbc's flagship current affairs) programme devoted to demonstrating that doping is widespread in athletics. It focused on Salazar, Farah's coach, and although it didn't link Farah to doping (because it can't without concrete evidence) the whole subtext of the programme was about associating a champion British athlete with a doping coach.

The programne was heavily reported on in the press, and of course referenced in bbc news.

That's fair enough and should be applauded/acknowledged.
Again though, that doesn't apologize for some of the most vomit-inducing cheerleading coming from the BBC and not so much from other state broadcasters (to my knowledge).

 

[kwikki]

What do you call cheerleading? What were the actual words used?

It's good that you are recognising that there is a limit to your knowledge. Nobody expects you to be omniscient, but sometimes the verdicts you deliver are a bit too sure of themselves.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Do you expect commentators to start finger pointing at certain athletes during Olympic events?

no. Did I make any such suggestion?

My point is: I don't expect BBC to make sweeping statements about the vast majority of Olympians being clean.
I expect them to take a more neutral/agnostic position in the context of doping.
Better they shut up about it altogether than to provide misleading statements.

Point taken though that they've done some more progressive coverage of doping issues as well.

 

[kwikki]

There was another Panorama programme last year where a journalist bought and administered EPO and had his bio passport checked and managed to evade detection. The conclusion being the anti-doping system doesn't work.

 

[sniper]

exactly.
and the worst thing would be to be complacent about it.
i propose we keep the pressure on and don't see misleading reporting through the fingers, despite other more encouraging signals.
so instead of moaning about too much flack, i'd welcome the flack, as it will eventually help improve the quality of british media reporting on doping issues.

 

[Catwhoorg]

It is a simple fact, that the majority of the athletes at this game will not test positive during the games.


OK the majority will not be tested, period, but that does mean they will not test positive.

 

[Nellyspania]

Re:

There was another Panorama programme last year where a journalist bought and administered EPO and had his bio passport checked and managed to evade detection. The conclusion being the anti-doping system doesn't work.

Yes, I remember that one, the guy bumped his VO2 max up by 7% and passed the bio-passport tests :redface:

 

[kwikki]

Maybe sniper can give us some links to similar in depth investigations into Dutch sporting stars and also critiques of the anti-doping system that have appeared on Dutch TV.

If not, he might start to understand why event coverage does not need a constant reference to doping problems.

 

[Benotti69]

Start a Dutch thread, this one is for Brits that don't dope.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

When did I say BBC is special? Don't put words in my mouth.

Ah FFS sniper, I don't really expect you to read what I write, not at this stage, experience has taught me, but could you at least pay attention to your own posts, please? Here, specifically, the one that immediately preceded that question:

but still this is the BBC, they are (proud to be) considered the best state broadcaster of the world.
And so I think we're allowed to have the highest of expectations of them and hold them up against the highest of standards. Once one does that, one comes to disappointing conclusions, at least as far as doping coverage is concerned.
If one puts oneself on a pedestal, one should expect to receive more head wind.

 

[kwikki]

Re:

Start a Dutch thread, this one is for Brits that don't dope.

That's a bizarre response. Sniper is comparing the BBC to his and other countries media. And now you try to shut down the discussion.

If you've anything useful to actually add then go ahead.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

When did I say BBC is special? Don't put words in my mouth.

Ah FFS sniper, I don't really expect you to read what I write, not at this stage, experience has taught me, but could you at least pay attention to your own posts, please? Here, specifically, the one that immediately preceded that question:

but still this is the BBC, they are (proud to be) considered the best state broadcaster of the world.
And so I think we're allowed to have the highest of expectations of them and hold them up against the highest of standards. Once one does that, one comes to disappointing conclusions, at least as far as doping coverage is concerned.
If one puts oneself on a pedestal, one should expect to receive more head wind.

i meant to say I personally dont think theyre special, yet many people consider them special.
but fair enough, thats me nitpicking. i should have agreed with you there rather than go all semantics. my bad.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Start a Dutch thread, this one is for Brits that don't dope.

That's a bizarre response. Sniper is comparing the BBC to his and other countries media. And now you try to shut down the discussion.

If you've anything useful to actually add then go ahead.

The BBC are like any other state run organisation, they do what suits them when it suits them. BBC were quite happy to let the likes of Jimmy Saville work there for a long time.

I dont see German state media going after German athletes, but maybe you will correct me.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

Start a Dutch thread, this one is for Brits that don't dope.

That's a bizarre response. Sniper is comparing the BBC to his and other countries media. And now you try to shut down the discussion.

If you've anything useful to actually add then go ahead.

The BBC are like any other state run organisation, they do what suits them when it suits them. BBC were quite happy to let the likes of Jimmy Saville work there for a long time.

I dont see German state media going after German athletes, but maybe you will correct me.

In which case the BBC is to be lauded for its exposure of Mo Farah's coach. Thank you for your support.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Start a Dutch thread, this one is for Brits that don't dope.

That's a bizarre response. Sniper is comparing the BBC to his and other countries media. And now you try to shut down the discussion.

If you've anything useful to actually add then go ahead.

The BBC are like any other state run organisation, they do what suits them when it suits them. BBC were quite happy to let the likes of Jimmy Saville work there for a long time.

I dont see German state media going after German athletes, but maybe you will correct me.

Exactly.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Start a Dutch thread, this one is for Brits that don't dope.

That's a bizarre response. Sniper is comparing the BBC to his and other countries media. And now you try to shut down the discussion.

If you've anything useful to actually add then go ahead.

The BBC are like any other state run organisation, they do what suits them when it suits them. BBC were quite happy to let the likes of Jimmy Saville work there for a long time.

I dont see German state media going after German athletes, but maybe you will correct me.

ARD in Germany is the biggest public broadcaster in the world. It ran several stories on East German doping, as that was an issue of great public concern.

Hajo has run several stories on German doping on ARD and WRD which is also a public state funded broadcaster including into Jan Ullrich.

Together with former Canadian swimmer Karin Helmstaedt, Seppelt made the documentary film Staatsgeheimnis Kinderdoping (State Secret Child Doping) about the perpetrators and victims of doping in East German swimming. It was broadcast by ARD. Together with Holger Schück, he published the book Anklage: Kinderdoping. Das Erbe des DDR-Sports (Indictment Doping: The Legacy of East German Sports) in 1999. It also dealt with the topic of state doping in Communist East Germany.

In 2006, Seppelt reported extensively about the doping problem in cycling. Among other things, his research led to the identification of the German physician Markus Choina as a member of the doping network organized by Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes.[1] In November of that year, he was awarded the Leuchtturm für besondere publizistische Leistungen (Lighthouse Prize for Special Journalist Achievement) by the journalists’ association Netzwerk Recherche for his research, reports and exclusive revelations about cyclists Jan Ullrich and Floyd Landis and Eufemiano Fuentes.[2]

In the television report Mission: Sauberer Sport (The Mission to Clean Up Sports), Seppelt and Jo Goll documented the work of German doping controllers. The film highlighted flaws in Germany’s doping-control system and caused heady public discussions, which contributed to structural changes in Germany’s National Anti Doping Agency (NADA). The report won the Silver Chest Award 2007 at the International Television Film Festival in Plovdiv and the international Sports Movie and TV Award 2007 in Milan.[3] The film was also nominated for the German Television Prize and the Prix Europa.

In mid-January the German Skiing Association (DSV) took legal action, and a Hamburg court issued an injunction against Seppelt for refusing to make a cease-and-desist declaration demanded by the DSV about suspicions that German cross-country skiers and biathletes had engaged in blood doping in a Vienna laboratory.[4] A superior court in Hamburg overturned that ruling in Seppelt’s favor, concluding that DSV had no right to demand the cease-and-desist declaration because it was not affected by the journalist’s reporting. The ruling was based constitutional guarantees of journalist freedom in cases of anonymous sources. The judgment also overturned an injunction from October 21, 2008.[5] Seppelt’s suspicion could not be proved after extensive investigations.

In January 2012 Seppelt and colleagues from the Western German public broadcaster WDR had reports featured on ARD and WDR sports programs about the blood of thirty athletes being exposed to ultra-violet radiation by a sports doctor in the Eastern German city of Erfurt. Several of the athletes concerned were named. In the wake of the broadcasts, a discussion arose as to whether such procedures were banned according to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) code. WADA itself considered them to be.[6] Anti-doping investigations of the athletes ended up with discontinuations and acquittals due to extenuating circumstances, and a criminal investigation of the doctor concerned was also discontinued. Nonetheless, many experts declared that blood treatments were banned in principle by the laws governing sports. The doctor tried to get a superior court in Cologne to issue an injunction against WDR,[7] but the broadcaster won out, and the report was allowed to contain references to “forbidden blood treatments.”[8]

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Start a Dutch thread, this one is for Brits that don't dope.

That's a bizarre response. Sniper is comparing the BBC to his and other countries media. And now you try to shut down the discussion.

If you've anything useful to actually add then go ahead.

The BBC are like any other state run organisation, they do what suits them when it suits them. BBC were quite happy to let the likes of Jimmy Saville work there for a long time.

I dont see German state media going after German athletes, but maybe you will correct me.

ARD in Germany is the biggest public broadcaster in the world. It ran several stories on East German doping, as that was an issue of great public concern.

Hajo has run several stories on German doping on ARD and WRD which is also a public state funded broadcaster including into Jan Ullrich.

Together with former Canadian swimmer Karin Helmstaedt, Seppelt made the documentary film Staatsgeheimnis Kinderdoping (State Secret Child Doping) about the perpetrators and victims of doping in East German swimming. It was broadcast by ARD. Together with Holger Schück, he published the book Anklage: Kinderdoping. Das Erbe des DDR-Sports (Indictment Doping: The Legacy of East German Sports) in 1999. It also dealt with the topic of state doping in Communist East Germany.

In 2006, Seppelt reported extensively about the doping problem in cycling. Among other things, his research led to the identification of the German physician Markus Choina as a member of the doping network organized by Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes.[1] In November of that year, he was awarded the Leuchtturm für besondere publizistische Leistungen (Lighthouse Prize for Special Journalist Achievement) by the journalists’ association Netzwerk Recherche for his research, reports and exclusive revelations about cyclists Jan Ullrich and Floyd Landis and Eufemiano Fuentes.[2]

In the television report Mission: Sauberer Sport (The Mission to Clean Up Sports), Seppelt and Jo Goll documented the work of German doping controllers. The film highlighted flaws in Germany’s doping-control system and caused heady public discussions, which contributed to structural changes in Germany’s National Anti Doping Agency (NADA). The report won the Silver Chest Award 2007 at the International Television Film Festival in Plovdiv and the international Sports Movie and TV Award 2007 in Milan.[3] The film was also nominated for the German Television Prize and the Prix Europa.

In mid-January the German Skiing Association (DSV) took legal action, and a Hamburg court issued an injunction against Seppelt for refusing to make a cease-and-desist declaration demanded by the DSV about suspicions that German cross-country skiers and biathletes had engaged in blood doping in a Vienna laboratory.[4] A superior court in Hamburg overturned that ruling in Seppelt’s favor, concluding that DSV had no right to demand the cease-and-desist declaration because it was not affected by the journalist’s reporting. The ruling was based constitutional guarantees of journalist freedom in cases of anonymous sources. The judgment also overturned an injunction from October 21, 2008.[5] Seppelt’s suspicion could not be proved after extensive investigations.

In January 2012 Seppelt and colleagues from the Western German public broadcaster WDR had reports featured on ARD and WDR sports programs about the blood of thirty athletes being exposed to ultra-violet radiation by a sports doctor in the Eastern German city of Erfurt. Several of the athletes concerned were named. In the wake of the broadcasts, a discussion arose as to whether such procedures were banned according to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) code. WADA itself considered them to be.[6] Anti-doping investigations of the athletes ended up with discontinuations and acquittals due to extenuating circumstances, and a criminal investigation of the doctor concerned was also discontinued. Nonetheless, many experts declared that blood treatments were banned in principle by the laws governing sports. The doctor tried to get a superior court in Cologne to issue an injunction against WDR,[7] but the broadcaster won out, and the report was allowed to contain references to “forbidden blood treatments.”[8]

Did Hajo look into this?

http://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/ive-given-my-blood-for-union/how-east-and-west-germany-abused-and-drained-their-athletes/


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23573169

http://www.espnfc.com/german-bundesliga/story/1514871/west-germany-sponsored-doping-in-sports-report

http://www.worldsoccer.com/columnists/keir-radnedge/west-germanys-culture-of-doping-kept-under-wraps-341986

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/aug/05/west-germany-doping-athletes-report

http://www.focus.de/sport/fussball/bundesliga1/doping-doping-schwere-vorwuerfe-gegen-fussball-bundesligisten-und-bdr_id_4512633.html

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/freiburg-armin-kuemper-soll-auch-fussballer-gedopt-haben-a-1021333.html

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/neue-vorwuerfe-doping-das-maerchen-von-der-reinheit-des-fussballs-1.2932677


There are more links, obviously, but just trying to give an idea of what Seppelt didn't want to tackle, or perhaps did, at some point, but was pressured to stop, as it happened when he investigated the DSV years ago. And it's interesting that the DSV forced him to stop, as during those years, the cross country ski team of Germany was arguably the best in the world, certainly the men were winning world cups (four straight seasons-3 different skiers winning the overall world cup), and they all started getting top results at virtually the same time. Yes, guys like Teichmann were world junior champions, but they continued on. The women, too, started popping up world class results at the same time period, and one of those top skiers, Sachenbacher, was later busted in Sochi, ironically as a biathlete, after switching sports late in her career. The national team was rumored to have been linked to the Freiburg labs and Vienna labs (as I think it's mentioned above in your post, but if the DSV has the power to do that, then you know how much power the men's bundesliga, one of the top three leagues in world football, at times the best league in world football. And Stuttgart and Freiburg in those years weren't exactly crushing people. Ironically, Joachim Loew, the already 10 year national team coach, played for both of those teams at the time!!

I think for Seppelt, he got the green light to go after the Russians, as the funding just poured in and the timing was/still is perfect. There's no doubt in my mind that most of this is politically motivated. Not perhaps by Seppelt, but by the enablers, by the German state (call me tinfoil-hatted if you wish). It's much easier to make accusations and investigate and get funding by going after joe foreigner (especially Russians) than going after your own country's problems, particularly as big a factory as the German Bundesliga and the German Olympic structure. He would have been in big trouble had he kept going in that direction.