Brits don't dope?

[Bwlch y Groes]

Re: Re:

1. Nobody believes that only the British use drugs.
2. Nobody believes that drugs is the only thing that explains British success.

Let's move the discussion forward.

There are plenty of other threads in the clinic which discuss the doping habits of johnny foreigner. This one specifically addresses British doping.

Yeah but tbf this is only going to go round and round in circles unless we try to move forward here

Further to that Jenkins article, I wonder if we are going to start seeing a few more questions asked now. After all this has been 3 Olympics of exceptional performances, particularly the cycling domination, and this is the first time where one or two journalists are saying "hmm, maybe this is a bit too much". Yes, there's been a lot of cheerleading, but eventually that's going to start rubbing people up the wrong way - and I think that's starting to happen

The thing is, with sporting authorities being so corrupt, any collapse of British sport, or even just Britain in an individual sport like cycling, is going to be initiated by outsiders - as with Lance it'll come from suspicious journalists and disgruntled people within. We know that a small number of journalists and rivals are starting to ask questions and think it's excessive success. We know that Shane Sutton has annoyed people within BC. We know Farah has dodgy links and it's starting to come out more in the last year or so. The optimist in me thinks maybe this is the beginning of things starting to unravel a bit - it may take years or even decades for it all to come out but it's good to see things start to move in the direction it needs to be going if any of the cheating individuals or teams are going to be exposed

 

[bigcog]

Re:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/17/olympics-hysteria-britain-turned-soviet-team-gb

Interesting article from Simon Jenkins of the Guardian - stops short of accusing Britain of widespread doping but at least it's a sceptical article for once

He his right about the BBC, it is really over the top, it's sickening tbh.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

1. Nobody believes that only the British use drugs.
2. Nobody believes that drugs is the only thing that explains British success.

Let's move the discussion forward.

There are plenty of other threads in the clinic which discuss the doping habits of johnny foreigner. This one specifically addresses British doping.

Yeah but tbf this is only going to go round and round in circles unless we try to move forward here

Further to that Jenkins article, I wonder if we are going to start seeing a few more questions asked now. After all this has been 3 Olympics of exceptional performances, particularly the cycling domination, and this is the first time where one or two journalists are saying "hmm, maybe this is a bit too much". Yes, there's been a lot of cheerleading, but eventually that's going to start rubbing people up the wrong way - and I think that's starting to happen

The thing is, with sporting authorities being so corrupt, any collapse of British sport, or even just Britain in an individual sport like cycling, is going to be initiated by outsiders - as with Lance it'll come from suspicious journalists and disgruntled people within. We know that a small number of journalists and rivals are starting to ask questions and think it's excessive success. We know that Shane Sutton has annoyed people within BC. We know Farah has dodgy links and it's starting to come out more in the last year or so. The optimist in me thinks maybe this is the beginning of things starting to unravel a bit - it may take years or even decades for it all to come out but it's good to see things start to move in the direction it needs to be going if any of the cheating individuals or teams are going to be exposed

Its not until you see what occurs around 8 years later. The same happened in Australia with the lead up to 2000. The performances stated to fall off around 2010, the former swimmers were becoming basket cases. Most with depression, some with drug habits, some just fall off the map completely. It wasn't pretty. The Aussie cyclists from 1984 to 1988 the same thing occurred, some horrible stories which are very sad.

It will happen here also, its been a golden era but it can't last.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

1. Nobody believes that only the British use drugs.
2. Nobody believes that drugs is the only thing that explains British success.

Let's move the discussion forward.

There are plenty of other threads in the clinic which discuss the doping habits of johnny foreigner. This one specifically addresses British doping.

Yeah but tbf this is only going to go round and round in circles unless we try to move forward here

Further to that Jenkins article, I wonder if we are going to start seeing a few more questions asked now. After all this has been 3 Olympics of exceptional performances, particularly the cycling domination, and this is the first time where one or two journalists are saying "hmm, maybe this is a bit too much". Yes, there's been a lot of cheerleading, but eventually that's going to start rubbing people up the wrong way - and I think that's starting to happen

The thing is, with sporting authorities being so corrupt, any collapse of British sport, or even just Britain in an individual sport like cycling, is going to be initiated by outsiders - as with Lance it'll come from suspicious journalists and disgruntled people within. We know that a small number of journalists and rivals are starting to ask questions and think it's excessive success. We know that Shane Sutton has annoyed people within BC. We know Farah has dodgy links and it's starting to come out more in the last year or so. The optimist in me thinks maybe this is the beginning of things starting to unravel a bit - it may take years or even decades for it all to come out but it's good to see things start to move in the direction it needs to be going if any of the cheating individuals or teams are going to be exposed

I wish I shared your optimism. A possible scenario is that the government itself busts a UK sports federation for reasons of political expediency. I could see that if links with Russia started to thaw for example. A way to grease the palms before a business deal.

 

[GreasyChain]

Re: Re:

Amazing how much cheating the Brits are getting away with. Cavendish and Kenny should have both been disqualified for blatant cheating. Now I have seen some Brit in the high jump getting a white flag for knocking the bar over! Seems like the Brits have the judges in their pockets.

The white flag was for cease fire, the Brits have won, we all surrender to the Empire!

In the old days people like you had innocent women burned, drowned or beheaded for witchcraft. And with exactly the same standards of proof. IE. None whatsoever.

Remind me of your logic again. Winning races and breaking records can only be done by doping. But G Obree won races and broke records before being kicked out of his professional team for refusing to dope. So your entire model is broken and not sports. 0/10 must try harder. And the casual racism and slurs agains people's fathers. You're a real big man. Keyboard warrior who's never ridden a bike in his life. Or visited planet Earth from the looks of it.

 

[GreasyChain]

Re: Re:

doolols"]
Or perfectly innocent, when viewed from outside the rarified atmosphere of The Clinic.[/quote]

No need to visit the clinic if you just come to scoff at those who post here.[/quote]
I doubt that anyone comes to scoff. I tend not to post because it usually turns into a waste of time, either because of being ignored or being vilified by some.

There are posters who see some of these things in less than black and white. They see grey because they are not persuaded by the same things as others. They have a point of view and unless you prefer censorship they should be free to express it.

The clinic should never be an echo chamber for people of identical points of view. What's the point of that? Those who don't agree with you are often as sincere as you think yourself to be.[/quote]

I never argued for an echo chamber. Doolols called it a rarefied atmosphere. I consider that scoffing. There is a rainbow of opinion and debate in here. Those that deny that are not reading it properly.

I dont prefer censorship and i dont like the insinuation you are making,[/quote]
Well again, it's a matter of opinion and I don't intend any personal attack on you, except to observe that if you say someone need not post here you attempt to exclude that view. If he took your advice and did not post again nobody would see what he would have said! Not censorship perhaps, but only because we would never know what would have been said. Attempted exclusion may be a better description.[/quote]

I am not attempting to exclude anyone and here is another insinuation i refute.

Doolols can debate and discuss doping in any manner he so chooses as long as it is within the rules.

To scoff at the clinic is not doing so.[/quote]


Scoffing at a bunch of tinfoil wearing nutjobs is never a waste of time.

People ask for evidence. You give them abuse and no evidence.

People ask why there's not even been a sniff of a rumour of anybody whistleblowing or breaking this mythical omerta bollocks you're all convinced exists. And they are told it's because Murdoch.R runs the secret World Government. Which anybody who knows anything about the media in the UK would know to be total shite as there are plenty of other Billionaire media tycoons who'd love to destroy him. Anybody providing proof of team Sky or British Cycling being dirty would be made for life.

But you stick to your insults and fairy stories because a British person liberated your county once.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

People ask for evidence. You give them abuse and no evidence.

Thread is full of evidence. Trying reading it.

People ask why there's not even been a sniff of a rumour of anybody whistleblowing or breaking this mythical omerta bollocks you're all convinced exists.

Stepanova, the whislteblower who outed Russia, is currently on the run in fear for her and her partners life. Trying reading about whistleblowers and how they suffered, then ask yourself why whistleblow?

And they are told it's because Murdoch.R runs the secret World Government.
Which anybody who knows anything about the media in the UK would know to be total shite as there are plenty of other Billionaire media tycoons who'd love to destroy him. Anybody providing proof of team Sky or British Cycling being dirty would be made for life.

secret World Government? Got a link to that?

Can you point to any whistleblowers who got made for life?

But you stick to your insults and fairy stories because a British person liberated your county once.

Actually the British didn't liberate my country. But if you are referring to Italy, I think you might find it was the Allied Forces (British, Polish, American, French, Belgian, Dutch, New Zealand, Australian, Canadian etc etc) that liberated many of the countries occupied by German forces in the 2nd world war.

Again, you will find reading a help in finding out facts.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

1. Nobody believes that only the British use drugs.
2. Nobody believes that drugs is the only thing that explains British success.

Let's move the discussion forward.

the usual suspects would have no way to obstruct the conversation then.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

What is this then, the BBC actually posts a sceptical opinion on their Olympics live ticker. The world must be ending....

http://www.bbc.com/sport/live/olympics/36773039

Success is 'impossible without doping'
Posted at 20:03
Andrei Arshavin
Getty Images

You may have never wondered what former Arsenal forward Andrei Arshavin's view on doping is, but it is certainly interesting.

The Russian has said that all athletes in certain sports use banned performance-enhancing drugs.

Success in "cyclic sports", which require repetitive movements, is "simply impossible without doping," he said.

"That means swimming, skiing, cycling. I think everyone dopes."

He's a hypocrite if he's pretending football isn't rife with doping. I love it when people call out cycling etc, especially now that it embarrasses brailsford and his claims to have singlehandedly saved cycling, but for any footballer to accuse another sport and ignore cycling is just fraudulent.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/17/olympics-hysteria-britain-turned-soviet-team-gb

Interesting article from Simon Jenkins of the Guardian - stops short of accusing Britain of widespread doping but at least it's a sceptical article for once

He directly denies widespread doping by starting the article with the number 1 doper apologist argument

I doubt if it is true. What Britain “got together” was the money. Is that cheating?

Though maybe that was just a way to stop some of the demented fans like Vickers and co from sending him hate mail for the next year

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

People ask for evidence. You give them abuse and no evidence.

Thread is full of evidence. Trying reading it.

People ask why there's not even been a sniff of a rumour of anybody whistleblowing or breaking this mythical omerta bollocks you're all convinced exists.

Stepanova, the whislteblower who outed Russia, is currently on the run in fear for her and her partners life. Trying reading about whistleblowers and how they suffered, then ask yourself why whistleblow?

And they are told it's because Murdoch.R runs the secret World Government.
Which anybody who knows anything about the media in the UK would know to be total shite as there are plenty of other Billionaire media tycoons who'd love to destroy him. Anybody providing proof of team Sky or British Cycling being dirty would be made for life.

secret World Government? Got a link to that?

Can you point to any whistleblowers who got made for life?

But you stick to your insults and fairy stories because a British person liberated your county once.

Actually the British didn't liberate my country. But if you are referring to Italy, I think you might find it was the Allied Forces (British, Polish, American, French, Belgian, Dutch, New Zealand, Australian, Canadian etc etc) that liberated many of the countries occupied by German forces in the 2nd world war.

Again, you will find reading a help in finding out facts.

She's not 'on the run' she is in the United States. So is Rodchenkov, who's had a US address since 2011.

 

[Cannibal72]

Once more, with feeling:

Team Sky is small fry.

If Team Sky is doping, amd is revealed to be doping, Murdoch is not going down. Nothing will change. People in the Clinic, on both sides of the argument, have a moderately entertaining tendency to wildly overstate the political importance of sport. Take, on the other side, the point made by someone a few pages back, and again kind-of by buckle above, that British Cycling could be sacrificed in trade negotiations with Russia.

"So, Sergei, we've established that the collateral-based derivatives sold by companies domiciled in London will be regulated under the rules of the FCA and the underlying index will be stochastically and conditionally linked to the forward contracts under the options offered by institutions passported within the Single Market. Then there's codicil iv) to Appendix J, which enforces the exemption for petrochemical products (excluding consumer plastics but including industrial plastics unless they are being used within thirty miles of Yekaterinburg to make car interiors, unless the cars can carry fewer than three passengers) from the 70% tariff imposed when the volume of imports from factories in the North of England which employ more than seven people is equal to or exceeds the quantity of oil provided by Gazprom to Ukraine through the large pipeline but not if it is routed through...Sergei? Sergei, is this OK?"
"No, Liam, I'm sorry. This is not acceptable."
"Look, Sergei, we've discussed the distribution of visas to ballerinas under the age of 20 who are on tour thoroughly. Is this about the beef? You know as well as I do that the antibiotics used in Aberdeen Angus cattle cannot be the ones approved as fit for human consumption by the Russia Pharmaceutical Agency under the reciprocal agreement with the Food & Drug Administration."
"No. It's not that."
"Well, what is it then?"
"I have one condition, Liam."
"Name it."
"I want Jason Kenny's stash of AICAR."

Not gonna happen.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/17/olympics-hysteria-britain-turned-soviet-team-gb

Interesting article from Simon Jenkins of the Guardian - stops short of accusing Britain of widespread doping but at least it's a sceptical article for once

He directly denies widespread doping by starting the article with the number 1 doper apologist argument

I doubt if it is true. What Britain “got together” was the money. Is that cheating?

Though maybe that was just a way to stop some of the demented fans like Vickers and co from sending him hate mail for the next year

I think Vickers fingers are burning with the accusation of being just like Russia!!! :lol:

 

[buckle]

Re:

Once more, with feeling:

Team Sky is small fry.

If Team Sky is doping, amd is revealed to be doping, Murdoch is not going down. Nothing will change. People in the Clinic, on both sides of the argument, have a moderately entertaining tendency to wildly overstate the political importance of sport. Take, on the other side, the point made by someone a few pages back, and again kind-of by buckle above, that British Cycling could be sacrificed in trade negotiations with Russia.

"So, Sergei, we've established that the collateral-based derivatives sold by companies domiciled in London will be regulated under the rules of the FCA and the underlying index will be stochastically and conditionally linked to the forward contracts under the options offered by institutions passported within the Single Market. Then there's codicil iv) to Appendix J, which enforces the exemption for petrochemical products (excluding consumer plastics but including industrial plastics unless they are being used within thirty miles of Yekaterinburg to make car interiors, unless the cars can carry fewer than three passengers) from the 70% tariff imposed when the volume of imports from factories in the North of England which employ more than seven people is equal to or exceeds the quantity of oil provided by Gazprom to Ukraine through the large pipeline but not if it is routed through...Sergei? Sergei, is this OK?"
"No, Liam, I'm sorry. This is not acceptable."
"Look, Sergei, we've discussed the distribution of visas to ballerinas under the age of 20 who are on tour thoroughly. Is this about the beef? You know as well as I do that the antibiotics used in Aberdeen Angus cattle cannot be the ones approved as fit for human consumption by the Russia Pharmaceutical Agency under the reciprocal agreement with the Food & Drug Administration."
"No. It's not that."
"Well, what is it then?"
"I have one condition, Liam."
"Name it."
"I want Jason Kenny's stash of AICAR."

Not gonna happen.

It is because cycling is so small that I posited the idea that it could be sacrificed as a cheap goodwill gesture towards a new relationship with a country which has faced complete humiliation this summer. It was a cheeky suggestion but straight from a Yes Minister sketch and nothing more.

I agree it's not going to happen.

 

[thehog]

3000m Steeplechase, 3rd place Kemboi was DQ'ed for putting one foot on the inside of the track. He impeded no one or gained an advantage. Tough, he should change from Kenya to UK.

Sadly enough Kemboi had announced his retirement once getting bronze to be thrown out of the race.

Tough life if you're not in the Empire

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Amazing how much cheating the Brits are getting away with. Cavendish and Kenny should have both been disqualified for blatant cheating. Now I have seen some Brit in the high jump getting a white flag for knocking the bar over! Seems like the Brits have the judges in their pockets.

The white flag was for cease fire, the Brits have won, we all surrender to the Empire!

In the old days people like you had innocent women burned, drowned or beheaded for witchcraft. And with exactly the same standards of proof. IE. None whatsoever.

Remind me of your logic again. Winning races and breaking records can only be done by doping. But G Obree won races and broke records before being kicked out of his professional team for refusing to dope. So your entire model is broken and not sports. 0/10 must try harder. And the casual racism and slurs agains people's fathers. You're a real big man. Keyboard warrior who's never ridden a bike in his life. Or visited planet Earth from the looks of it.

Answer me this: given the true and adequate knowledge we already have about the history of doping in the sport of cycling, is it more rational to assume doping or cleanliness?

On what grounds is it rational to assume cleanliness?

You charge others for being illogical, but the weight of historical and institutional knowledge is surely with the counter assumption.

 

[TMP402]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/olympic-games-australia-to-re-think-approach-to-track-after-coming-up-short-in-rio/

The review into Australia's performance and lack of medals on the Rio Velodrome at the 2016 Olympic Games is already under review with Cycling Australia high performance director Kevin Tabotta leading the inquiry.

...

Tabotta suggested that those next steps may include Australia placing less of an emphasis on the World Championships than it has in the past.

"It may take us to actually take a step back and really take a thrust into an Olympic Games from a couple of years out," he said. "Now that's going to take some understanding from funders, and also from athletes because there's an expectation now in Australia to perform every time we line up at a world championship.

"I will also highlight that's no excuse. At the end of the day we came here to win medals and we'd set ourself at least five medals off the track here and we've walked away with two.

"We need to master an August peak and we haven't nailed that yet."

I find it puzzling that Australia are conceding GB peak better and purposely don't turn up for four years. It's almost as if they believe it.

 

[domination]

Re: Re:

1. Nobody believes that only the British use drugs.
2. Nobody believes that drugs is the only thing that explains British success.

Let's move the discussion forward.

There are plenty of other threads in the clinic which discuss the doping habits of johnny foreigner. This one specifically addresses British doping.

Yeah but tbf this is only going to go round and round in circles unless we try to move forward here

Further to that Jenkins article, I wonder if we are going to start seeing a few more questions asked now. After all this has been 3 Olympics of exceptional performances, particularly the cycling domination, and this is the first time where one or two journalists are saying "hmm, maybe this is a bit too much". Yes, there's been a lot of cheerleading, but eventually that's going to start rubbing people up the wrong way - and I think that's starting to happen

The thing is, with sporting authorities being so corrupt, any collapse of British sport, or even just Britain in an individual sport like cycling, is going to be initiated by outsiders - as with Lance it'll come from suspicious journalists and disgruntled people within. We know that a small number of journalists and rivals are starting to ask questions and think it's excessive success. We know that Shane Sutton has annoyed people within BC. We know Farah has dodgy links and it's starting to come out more in the last year or so. The optimist in me thinks maybe this is the beginning of things starting to unravel a bit - it may take years or even decades for it all to come out but it's good to see things start to move in the direction it needs to be going if any of the cheating individuals or teams are going to be exposed

Its not until you see what occurs around 8 years later. The same happened in Australia with the lead up to 2000. The performances stated to fall off around 2010, the former swimmers were becoming basket cases. Most with depression, some with drug habits, some just fall off the map completely. It wasn't pretty. The Aussie cyclists from 1984 to 1988 the same thing occurred, some horrible stories which are very sad.

It will happen here also, its been a golden era but it can't last.

So we're 8 years on from the 7 cycling golds at Beijing. Where's the Team GB "horrible stories"?

 

[glassmoon]

3000m Steeplechase, 3rd place Kemboi was DQ'ed for putting one foot on the inside of the track. He impeded no one or gained an advantage. Tough, he should change from Kenya to UK.

Sadly enough Kemboi had announced his retirement once getting bronze to be thrown out of the race.

Tough life if you're not in the Empire

real bummer though

 

[Lyon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK2Oqrgic

 

[sheisdisaster]

East-Germany's doping program seems amateurish compared to what is happening currently in the UK. Very disturbing stuff.

 

[The Carrot]

Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/olympic-games-australia-to-re-think-approach-to-track-after-coming-up-short-in-rio/

The review into Australia's performance and lack of medals on the Rio Velodrome at the 2016 Olympic Games is already under review with Cycling Australia high performance director Kevin Tabotta leading the inquiry.

...

Tabotta suggested that those next steps may include Australia placing less of an emphasis on the World Championships than it has in the past.

"It may take us to actually take a step back and really take a thrust into an Olympic Games from a couple of years out," he said. "Now that's going to take some understanding from funders, and also from athletes because there's an expectation now in Australia to perform every time we line up at a world championship.

"I will also highlight that's no excuse. At the end of the day we came here to win medals and we'd set ourself at least five medals off the track here and we've walked away with two.

"We need to master an August peak and we haven't nailed that yet."

I find it puzzling that Australia are conceding GB peak better and purposely don't turn up for four years. It's almost as if they believe it.

Agreed, like no other coach in the world can figure out how to peak for the Olympics. Seriously?

Aren't the Worlds pretty pivotal to Olympic qualification?

If the World Champs are going to be less important (as has been implied by many) isn't this demeaning the sport?

 

[The Carrot]

Cyclist Anna Meares has joined a growing number of Olympic athletes and coaches demanding to know how Team Great Britain got so good.

After a disappointing 10th place result in the individual track sprint in Rio on Monday, Meares, who is Australia's Olympic captain, turned her attention to the over-performing British cyclists.

They've done exceedingly well in Brazil, and Meares said it wasn't just the Australian team who had questions about the British

'The British are just phenomenal when it comes to the Olympic Games, and we're all just scratching our heads going 'how do they lift so much when in so many events they have not even been in contention in the world championships?,' she was quoted as saying.

'They've got it together, and to be honest I'm not exactly sure what they've got together.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3742770/Australian-cyclist-Anna-Meares-questions-British-team-Rio-got-good.html#ixzz4HVSByKYe

Some of the best track cyclists in the World are starting to cal it like they see it. People like Anna Meares and Vogels know their Track onions. That's all they do, that's all they've ever done and they know what's what. They've forgotten more about Track cycling than the peeps who accuse them of having sour grapes. When people of that kind of experience speak, we should listen.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re:

East-Germany's doping program seems amateurish compared to what is happening currently in the UK. Very disturbing stuff.

If that is the case then maybe you could explain how East Germany had so much more success than the UK are having now? Or maybe you just have no idea what you are talking about?

 

[buckle]

Re:

East-Germany's doping program seems amateurish compared to what is happening currently in the UK. Very disturbing stuff.

It hasn't stopped their coaches getting gigs in British rowing, track & field and cycling. Ethiopia's greatest ever track coach studied in East Germany.