Re: Re:
Make that the late 70s. Systematic junior doping in the US commenced with the foundation of the OTC in 78. For US cycling that coincided with the appointment of coach Eddie Boryswicz.who was still there in the early 90s.
Just for the record,Archibald said:and that no one on a junior program could possibly be doping... just ask the US junior squad of the early 90's...42x16ss said:Yet Froome and Thomas' lack of U23 and Junior results don't matter....wrinklyvet said:
Wow:lol:
Make that the late 70s. Systematic junior doping in the US commenced with the foundation of the OTC in 78. For US cycling that coincided with the appointment of coach Eddie Boryswicz.who was still there in the early 90s.
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Re: Re:
If it's junior results you are looking for, nobody is more credible than Bradley Wiggins
Or perhaps I forgot - the track doesn't matter to many who prefer not to give credit where it is due.
42x16ss said:Yet Froome and Thomas' lack of U23 and Junior results don't matter....wrinklyvet said:
Wow
If it's junior results you are looking for, nobody is more credible than Bradley Wiggins
Or perhaps I forgot - the track doesn't matter to many who prefer not to give credit where it is due.
Re: Re:
as the expression suggests, it's about giving credit where it's due.
not where it's not due.
from the section you quoted, the sentence "He joined the Archer Road Club,[4] where his father had been a member in the late 1970s" strikes me as interesting.
more to the point, Wiggins strikes me as a rather prototypical junior doper.
There's not much in his character or junior racing background that gives reason to believe otherwise.
Or perhaps I forgot - some are not here to discuss doping but to deflect away from it and pretend it's not happening.
when we discuss wiggins in the context of turning from packfodder into a GT contender, his track results are indeed irrelevant.wrinklyvet said:
as the expression suggests, it's about giving credit where it's due.
not where it's not due.
from the section you quoted, the sentence "He joined the Archer Road Club,[4] where his father had been a member in the late 1970s" strikes me as interesting.
more to the point, Wiggins strikes me as a rather prototypical junior doper.
There's not much in his character or junior racing background that gives reason to believe otherwise.
Or perhaps I forgot - some are not here to discuss doping but to deflect away from it and pretend it's not happening.
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You are right, some are not here to accuse everyone of doping, and especially to rubbish their junior performances. You may not like him, but there is no justification for accusation in relation to his junior palmares.sniper said:when we discuss wiggins in the context of turning from packfodder into a GT contender, his track results are indeed irrelevant.wrinklyvet said:
as the expression suggests, it's about giving credit where it's due.
not where it's not due.
from the section you quoted, the sentence "He joined the Archer Road Club,[4] where his father had been a member in the late 1970s" strikes me as interesting.
more to the point, Wiggins strikes me as a rather prototypical junior doper.
There's not much in his character or junior background that gives reason to believe otherwise.
Then again, some are not here to discuss doping but to deflect away from it and pretend it's not happening.
Have you ever even read anything about junior doping?
why do you hate social media so much?
we're here to discuss openly what is likely and what is not likely.
it's not a court of law.
considering his junior racing background, there's plenty of common sense reason to assume he was doping as a junior. (unless of course you're totally uninformed about that thing called junior doping and the impact it has on junior results.)
From what I've read, it seems as a junior he already had the entourage to give him access to doping if he'd wanted it. And in his character there is very little to warrant the assumption of him having some kind of anti-doping morals.
we're here to discuss openly what is likely and what is not likely.
it's not a court of law.
considering his junior racing background, there's plenty of common sense reason to assume he was doping as a junior. (unless of course you're totally uninformed about that thing called junior doping and the impact it has on junior results.)
From what I've read, it seems as a junior he already had the entourage to give him access to doping if he'd wanted it. And in his character there is very little to warrant the assumption of him having some kind of anti-doping morals.
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Re:
I will grant you that in your case you couch your comments about Wiggins as an opinion. It's not one that I share but that does not matter. Equally, I am entitled to my altenative view that is not actually so far from the mainstream. To suggest I should not express it and that the Clinic is a place where such a view is out of place is, I believe, inappropriate. Why are you reverting to the personal?sniper said:
Re: Re:
Well I think there is. Objectively.
Unless you think we're in a court of law, which we're not.
Or unless you have not read much about junior doping and the impact it has on junior results.
No, your opinion is not out of place here. Not at all.
The only thing that is out of place imo is your suggestion that we're in a court of law.
And no, you're opinion is not far from the mainstream. But the mainstream is - objectively - not very well informed about the history of doping in cycling.
You just said "there is no justification for accusation in relation to his junior palmares."wrinklyvet said:
Well I think there is. Objectively.
Unless you think we're in a court of law, which we're not.
Or unless you have not read much about junior doping and the impact it has on junior results.
No, your opinion is not out of place here. Not at all.
The only thing that is out of place imo is your suggestion that we're in a court of law.
And no, you're opinion is not far from the mainstream. But the mainstream is - objectively - not very well informed about the history of doping in cycling.
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you didn't say it. you suggested it.
viewtopic.php?p=2017207#p2017207
what you said there is like saying "you have no right to an informed opinion if you cannot prove it in front of court".
which is basically you ignoring what social media is all about.
now, I respect your opinion that wiggins is/was clean, too.
But I do have a problem with it to the extent that it seems particularly uninformed, as it is not embedded in any kind of theory or data or facts that would support it.
Or if it is, let's hear it...
viewtopic.php?p=2017207#p2017207
what you said there is like saying "you have no right to an informed opinion if you cannot prove it in front of court".
which is basically you ignoring what social media is all about.
now, I respect your opinion that wiggins is/was clean, too.
But I do have a problem with it to the extent that it seems particularly uninformed, as it is not embedded in any kind of theory or data or facts that would support it.
Or if it is, let's hear it...
Re:
you can state that there is no real evidence, but that doesn't mean there isn't. All it means is that you appear uninformed about it.
well, this is basically why i introduced the notion of informed vs. uninformed opinion.ebandit said:
you can state that there is no real evidence, but that doesn't mean there isn't. All it means is that you appear uninformed about it.
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You may think that I have that view, but I don't. You can claim any opinion you like, but not that the opinion is proved by repetition or by sharing the belief with as many others as you please. But my views on social media, misrepresented by you, are not a proper subject for this thread. At least you admit you made up your representation of them.
If you look back, you will see that hfer07 wrote
Then I pointed out that five years ago this Yates was a teenager, but he did have good results.
So somebody suggested a couple of names with an alleged lack of youth results
I found one with a sound record of development as a youth, i.e. Wiggins.
What transpired just shows that whether a rder has youth results or not, if members of the Clinic take against him, there is no difference. They prove nothing to anybody as they can be rubbished if they exist and the lack of them is held against a rider if they don't.
It is quite clever to move the goalposts continually but I am not naive enough to fail to notice when it happens. And given that everyone knows you can't prove successfully that any doping allegation is untrue, there's scope to say what you want without any successful contradiction. That's social media for you, as you could well have pointed out.
sniper said:
You may think that I have that view, but I don't. You can claim any opinion you like, but not that the opinion is proved by repetition or by sharing the belief with as many others as you please. But my views on social media, misrepresented by you, are not a proper subject for this thread. At least you admit you made up your representation of them.
If you look back, you will see that hfer07 wrote
Then I pointed out that five years ago this Yates was a teenager, but he did have good results.
So somebody suggested a couple of names with an alleged lack of youth results
Yet Froome and Thomas' lack of U23 and Junior results don't matter....
Wow
I found one with a sound record of development as a youth, i.e. Wiggins.
What transpired just shows that whether a rder has youth results or not, if members of the Clinic take against him, there is no difference. They prove nothing to anybody as they can be rubbished if they exist and the lack of them is held against a rider if they don't.
It is quite clever to move the goalposts continually but I am not naive enough to fail to notice when it happens. And given that everyone knows you can't prove successfully that any doping allegation is untrue, there's scope to say what you want without any successful contradiction. That's social media for you, as you could well have pointed out.
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Frankly, Obree breaking records clean is pretty easy to explain. Have you not seen his radical washing machine bike that forced the UCI to actually change the rules for the hour record?
What races did he win? Other than TT's in Britain......??
Hoisted on own petard.
GreasyChain said:
Frankly, Obree breaking records clean is pretty easy to explain. Have you not seen his radical washing machine bike that forced the UCI to actually change the rules for the hour record?
What races did he win? Other than TT's in Britain......??
Hoisted on own petard.
Re: Re:
See, if you have a problem with that you have to take it up with Cookson and UCI's reluctance to develop any kind of credible antidoping environment. You can't fault Clinic posters for applying common sense.wrinklyvet said:
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You take it up with Cookson, by all means. I've never met the man but expect he would be pleased to have your thoughts. What would that environment look like? How would it work? How would it change any opinion? In fact, I believe everyone would hold the same opinions (in all shades) as they now do, whatever is done. It's like religion - conversions are the exception rather than the rule, as in this issue.sniper said:
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Re:
I refer, of course, merely to the inability to change - an unwillingness to be converted to another view. It is not something that will happen big time in any direction.
You know full well that I do not refer to any aspect of sport or cycling as a religion, though when I am on my bike it could be a temptation.
I see you have no ideas that would help any change to achieve a situation where never failing a dope test points to a presumption of cleanliness. No, of course not, because neither Cookson not anyone else will be able to create such an environment. It is pie in the sky and a big stick to beat sports and doping control administrators, because they will never reach that summit, however much they improve.
You are missing or twisting the point, of course. Is metaphor and simile a problem?sniper said:
I refer, of course, merely to the inability to change - an unwillingness to be converted to another view. It is not something that will happen big time in any direction.
You know full well that I do not refer to any aspect of sport or cycling as a religion, though when I am on my bike it could be a temptation.
I see you have no ideas that would help any change to achieve a situation where never failing a dope test points to a presumption of cleanliness. No, of course not, because neither Cookson not anyone else will be able to create such an environment. It is pie in the sky and a big stick to beat sports and doping control administrators, because they will never reach that summit, however much they improve.
You should watch The Big Short.
It will help you shed some of that gullibility.
We live in an era of immense and immensely widespread fraud, particularly at the governmental level.
Cookson, Reedie and Coe are shining examples.
It will help you shed some of that gullibility.
We live in an era of immense and immensely widespread fraud, particularly at the governmental level.
Cookson, Reedie and Coe are shining examples.
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Re:
Thank you again - "gullibility" - please keep your opinions of me to yourself.
If they were shining examples of probity - or, if not, were replaced with such - nothing would ever be achieved that would make everyone confident. I tell you, it would not happen.
sniper said:
Thank you again - "gullibility" - please keep your opinions of me to yourself.
If they were shining examples of probity - or, if not, were replaced with such - nothing would ever be achieved that would make everyone confident. I tell you, it would not happen.
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That no longer works wrinkley and you well know it. The testing is a joke, never mind what the Russians, USA, and China do to cover up their own athletes, so to claim never failing a dope tests proves ones cleanliness has been debunked long time ago by such examples as Marion Jones, Armstrong and all those caught with retro testing who have long retired from sport.
A very weak argument to make in 2016, "never tested positive", laughable.
wrinklyvet said:
That no longer works wrinkley and you well know it. The testing is a joke, never mind what the Russians, USA, and China do to cover up their own athletes, so to claim never failing a dope tests proves ones cleanliness has been debunked long time ago by such examples as Marion Jones, Armstrong and all those caught with retro testing who have long retired from sport.
A very weak argument to make in 2016, "never tested positive", laughable.
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What "no longer works?"
I see you agree with me that an improvement in testing and administration will never satisfy anyone because it can always be stated that X was lucky and just defeated the system, or the system was inadequate. On that we do not have any argument.
They can do what they like to improve the system but the lack of confidence will always remain. Did I say otherwise?
Benotti69 said:
What "no longer works?"
I see you agree with me that an improvement in testing and administration will never satisfy anyone because it can always be stated that X was lucky and just defeated the system, or the system was inadequate. On that we do not have any argument.
They can do what they like to improve the system but the lack of confidence will always remain. Did I say otherwise?
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for example, If whistleblowers received the right accordance to their status, that would provide anti-doping with information that would be up to date and assist testing, but the system is broken from the top down.
As Adam Meyerson said, burn it to the ground and start again. Wont happen. "Sport is seriously broken" and according to Jack Robertson the fault lies at the feet of the likes of Coe, Reedie, and all those former athletes who now rape the sport for their own financial gain.
So in this environment, we ask how did TeamGB win so many golds in a system so broken?
How does Froome transform from ziz zagging up mountains to blowing everyone away?
How did Wiggins go from years in the Gruppetto to a year long peak and then back to the grupetto?
The answer is simple.
The answer is cheating and one of the forms of cheating is doping, it could be motor doping, but it is cheating and collusion/corruption at the highest levels.
This has been born out many times. UKAD ignoring Dr Bonar, assisting Armistead, letting Yates off with a 4 month ban...........
wrinklyvet said:
for example, If whistleblowers received the right accordance to their status, that would provide anti-doping with information that would be up to date and assist testing, but the system is broken from the top down.
As Adam Meyerson said, burn it to the ground and start again. Wont happen. "Sport is seriously broken" and according to Jack Robertson the fault lies at the feet of the likes of Coe, Reedie, and all those former athletes who now rape the sport for their own financial gain.
So in this environment, we ask how did TeamGB win so many golds in a system so broken?
How does Froome transform from ziz zagging up mountains to blowing everyone away?
How did Wiggins go from years in the Gruppetto to a year long peak and then back to the grupetto?
The answer is simple.
The answer is cheating and one of the forms of cheating is doping, it could be motor doping, but it is cheating and collusion/corruption at the highest levels.
This has been born out many times. UKAD ignoring Dr Bonar, assisting Armistead, letting Yates off with a 4 month ban...........
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