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Bruyneel Found Levi's Blood Bag

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May 26, 2010
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mastersracer said:
you honestly think the top ranked US pro rider is afraid he won't get a contract if he doesn't win events like the Tour of Utah? When was the last time Dave Zabriskie won a major event (US time trial championship doesn't count). LL is one of the few US riders that bring exposure to a sponsor regardless of their recent performances. Besides, the days of riders being 'doped to the gills' is over.
Of course they are, that is why now 39 year olds can beat 25-33 year olds easily.:rolleyes:
 
Jun 8, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
Zoetemelk was caught in drugs tests during the Tour de France in 1977 and 1979. He also tested positive in 1983. ;)
The 70s were for the stimulant pemoline, the 83 positive (nandrolone) was dismissed. He won the world championship in 85 - no positives associated with that win. Only point is that being in late 30s is no reason why a rider can't still be competitive. Also, what doping agent gives a preferential advantage only to someone in their late 30s?
 
May 26, 2010
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mastersracer said:
The 70s were for the stimulant pemoline, the 83 positive (nandrolone) was dismissed. He won the world championship in 85 - no positives associated with that win. Only point is that being in late 30s is no reason why a rider can't still be competitive. Also, what doping agent gives a preferential advantage only to someone in their late 30s?
well he doped and was caught twice, which nowadays according to USADA rules means a lifetime ban but no doubt Zoop learned his lesson and gave up doping:rolleyes:

Zoop raced in an era when doping was like drinking water. why would he have changed. But you can keep believing if you wish ;)
 
May 23, 2011
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mastersracer said:
Do you think LL cares that much about winning the Tour of Utah that he'd risk doping to win it? Maybe riders continue to be confident that they are still ahead of the testers, but it seems either incredibly arrogant or just plain stupid to dope for an event like the Tour of Utah considering all the heat surrounding anyone connected to Armstrong these days. LL always struck me as one of the smarter riders (not that the bar is very high).
So your theory is that after a lifetime of doping, Levi decided to stop in his mid 30s and now that he is clean he rides even better than he did when he was doping. Riiiiigggghhht.
 
Jun 8, 2010
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
So your theory is that after a lifetime of doping, Levi decided to stop in his mid 30s and now that he is clean he rides even better than he did when he was doping. Riiiiigggghhht.
it's just not true that LL is riding better now than he ever has. His last decent placing in a grand tour was in 2009 at the Giro. 2007 was his last good Tour performance. 2010 was a pretty anonymous season for him - highlight was Tour of the Gila and Utah. I have no idea if he's doping now, but winning the Tour of Utah in itself isn't much in the way of evidence, especially considering he likely rode the second half of the Tour with an eye toward the later season.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
So your theory is that after a lifetime of doping, Levi decided to stop in his mid 30s and now that he is clean he rides even better than he did when he was doping. Riiiiigggghhht.
That would explain his dominating ride in this year's Tour after the Suisse effort...oh wait...it does just the opposite I think. MR doesn't really believe that anyway.
 
May 23, 2011
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mastersracer said:
it's just not true that LL is riding better now than he ever has. His last decent placing in a grand tour was in 2009 at the Giro. 2007 was his last good Tour performance. 2010 was a pretty anonymous season for him - highlight was Tour of the Gila and Utah. I have no idea if he's doping now, but winning the Tour of Utah in itself isn't much in the way of evidence, especially considering he likely rode the second half of the Tour with an eye toward the later season.
He is a better time trialist than he ever was. Levi played a support role for Armstrong in 2009 and 2010. This year he crashed at the Tour. The Colombian riders are undoubtedly jacked big time. Their team manager is Santiago Botero. Sevilla should not even be racing. He tested posiitve for HES last year. Levi did not have a problem keeping up with those guys.

Anyway, my point as stated earlier is not whether Levi is doping for this specific race, but that when his decade of doping is revealed it will negatively affect the american races he has been winning.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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mastersracer said:
it's just not true that LL is riding better now than he ever has...
Yes, actually, it is. The Tour de Suisse win this year was the biggest of his career - only the Dauphine in 2006 comes close. He finished 13 seconds behind Cancellara in the final 32-km ITT at the TdS. At age 37.
 
Feb 4, 2010
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Well, his performance and results have had ups and downs over the years and that's pretty fishy. I mean if an athlete has variations in their performance over a period of time, what could explain it other than being a filthy, cheating, lying, scum of the earth, doper?

Plus, he has stood within 3 feet of the evil one who must not be named and that is all the proof you need.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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9000ft said:
Well, his performance and results have had ups and downs over the years and that's pretty fishy. I mean if an athlete has variations in their performance over a period of time, what could explain it other than being a filthy, cheating, lying, scum of the earth, doper?

Plus, he has stood within 3 feet of the evil one who must not be named and that is all the proof you need.
You are welcome to believe those are the only reasons why some consider Levi a doper but most rational people see his blood levels being so extreme he was warned by the UCI as better evidence of doping
 
Jun 8, 2010
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VeloCity said:
Yes, actually, it is. The Tour de Suisse win this year was the biggest of his career - only the Dauphine in 2006 comes close. He finished 13 seconds behind Cancellara in the final 32-km ITT at the TdS. At age 37.
LL was a more dominant time trialist prior to this year's TdS - he won the Olympic bronze medal in 2008 in the ITT, beating Contador, Evans, Sanchez, Rogers, Zabriskie, etc.

There's a real confirmation bias in choosing race results as evidence of doping. Is losing a time trial by only 13 seconds to Cancellara evidence of doping? In that same time trial LL beat Danielson by only 25 seconds. Shouldn't dopers be able to crush Cancellera? Schumacher beat Cancellera twice in the ITT at the 2008 Tour and we know how that turned out. Also in 2006 Landis kicked LL's **** in the ToC and the Tour, so wouldn't that be evidence against LL doping?

I'm not disagreeing that LL is as likely as anyone else in the pro ranks to have a systematic doping past. But, this thread suggested that his winning the Tour of Utah provided evidence of doping. I don't think it adds any more evidence than the general suspicions against him.
 
Feb 4, 2010
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mastersracer said:
I'm not disagreeing that LL is as likely as anyone else in the pro ranks to have a systematic doping past. But, this thread suggested that his winning the Tour of Utah provided evidence of doping. I don't think it adds any more evidence than the general suspicions against him.

Ding ding ding!

That's boring though. It's much more entertaining to read through the fascinating vitriol and grande cloak and dagger conspiracy theories, especially when the dark duo can be worked into the discussion.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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9000ft said:
Ding ding ding!

That's boring though. It's much more entertaining to read through the fascinating vitriol and grande cloak and dagger conspiracy theories, especially when the dark duo can be worked into the discussion.
So you are calling Holczer a liar?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/08/news/former-gerolsteiner-manager-levels-doping-charge-against-leipheimer_133494

What is "Cloak and Dagger" about

UCI blood screening, conducted on the Grenoble rest day at the 2005 Tour, showed that Leipheimer’s “stimulation index” showed a value of 132.8, far in excess of the normal range of 85 to 100 in a healthy adult male.
UCI official to recommend that the American be pulled from the race
Given Levi's past it is not a stretch to say that his success comes in the form of a bag of blood
 
Sep 10, 2009
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mastersracer said:
But, this thread suggested that his winning the Tour of Utah provided evidence of doping.
And you suggested that Levi wasn't riding as well compared to previous years, when, at 37, he's actually having one of the most successful seasons of his career.
 
Jun 8, 2010
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VeloCity said:
And you suggested that Levi wasn't riding as well compared to previous years, when, at 37, he's actually having one of the most successful seasons of his career.
this is a ridiculous statement: his only major victory of this year was Tour de Suisse. The final top 10 GC isn't exactly impressive, except for Cunego, since every rider with GC ambitions in the Tour was using it as a warm-up. LL hasn't won the ToC since 2009 and has been going downhill since 2008, when he won the bronze medal in the Olympic ITT and came in 2nd in the Vuelta. 2009 was the last year he cracked the top 10 of a grand tour.

It's impossible to find a rider who has been on the podium at the Tour over the last decade who has not either 1) been suspended for a doping violation, or 2) been investigated or had allegations against him. So LL belongs to a group that includes Armstrong, Beloki, Rumsas, Basso, Vino, Ullrich, Menchov, Contador, Evans (links to Ferrari), Schlecks (mysterious bank transfers to Fuentes). Even Sastre had allegations of CERA use in 2008. Point is, winning the Tour of Utah is not further evidence of doping beyond the general suspicion that accompanies a win by any rider of this ilk.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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mastersracer said:
this is a ridiculous statement: his only major victory of this year was Tour de Suisse.
I think you need to have a look at Levi's palmares over the years - he hasn't won anywhere near as much as you seem to assume he has, and the races that he has won are primarily domestic stage races - Tour of Georgia, Tour of California, Tour of Missouri, Sea Otter, etc. His only significant Euro wins have been the Dauphine, Criterium, Sud, Deutschland, and Castilla, and those have been spread out pretty evenly over his career.

Levi's annual pattern is basically victories in one or two domestic stage races and one shorter Euro stage race, some decent placings in other Euro races, a top-ten in the Tour or Vuelta. Which is pretty much exactly what he's done this year (minus the TdF placing, but he certainly would've done better in the Tour if it hadn't of been for the early crashes). And yes, the TdS is the biggest win of his career, or at least on par with the Dauphine, which alone would make this one of his best years. And Levi would've won the overall of the ToC if it hadn't been for the fact that his teammate was in yellow, and still he won the toughest mountain stage, finished second in the ITT, and second overall.

Have a look for yourself - Levi's 2011 is pretty much following the script of his career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Leipheimer
 
Jun 8, 2010
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the success of his career isn't measured by winning individual races or even stage races like TdS (which the American public/sponsors don't know/care about). Its measured by his performance in grand tours. The USA cycling official profile of LL is illustrative. It highlights his 2007 podium placing at the Tour:

"His third-place effort and stage win propelled him into legendary status of U.S. cycling history... Today he’s considered one of the top stage racers and Grand Tour riders in the world."

His performances in grand tours has declined since 2009. His last high placing at the Tour was 2007. Certainly the notion that he's suddenly doing better at 37 than he ever has isn't correct. In terms of doping, there's nothing he'd be doing now that he wasn't doing in 2005 - when he beat Ullrich in the Tour of Germany. Although I don't believe it, there's nothing I can point to that would even undermine the possibility that his late-career success is due to a cleaner peloton.
 
the problem that I have with Levi-along with Horner & some of the riders from the EPO school- is the "current level" of competitiveness they are still able to have, after crossing the 35 y.o. barrier-which is always the age when cyclists begin to decline- and yet those guys go toe to toe with youngsters without any major problem....
 
Oct 16, 2010
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hfer07 said:
the problem that I have with Levi-along with Horner & some of the riders from the EPO school- is the "current level" of competitiveness they are still able to have, after crossing the 35 y.o. barrier-which is always the age in which cyclists begin to decline- and yet those guys go toe to toe with youngsters without any major problem....
true story.
For what it's worth, Max recently said in the NUsport interview that he was sure he could still have been competitive, but only if he'd be willing to put himself on a program like others from the Bruyneel-school.
Max is 38 now.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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mastersracer said:
the success of his career isn't measured by winning individual races or even stage races like TdS (which the American public/sponsors don't know/care about). Its measured by his performance in grand tours.
No, it's really not, unless you think that nothing outside of the GT's matters. Levi's always been a mid-tour rider; only a few times has he done anything in a GT. (And that quote is pure hyperbole - did Bobby Julich's 3rd place finish at the Tour elevate him to "legendary" status? Hardly.)

His performances in grand tours has declined since 2009. His last high placing at the Tour was 2007. Certainly the notion that he's suddenly doing better at 37 than he ever has isn't correct. In terms of doping, there's nothing he'd be doing now that he wasn't doing in 2005 - when he beat Ullrich in the Tour of Germany. Although I don't believe it, there's nothing I can point to that would even undermine the possibility that his late-career success is due to a cleaner peloton.
I'm not arguing that he's doing better, I'm disputing that he's gone downhill, which is what you originally stated. Other than the TdF (which, again, he probably would've finished in his customary 8th or 9th spot if not for the crashes), this season has been, more or less, just like every other season he's had. With the exception that, at the age of 37, he won the biggest (and, I'd also point out, the longest and toughest) race of his career.
 
Jun 8, 2010
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VeloCity said:
No, it's really not, unless you think that nothing outside of the GT's matters. Levi's always been a mid-tour rider; only a few times has he done anything in a GT. (And that quote is pure hyperbole - did Bobby Julich's 3rd place finish at the Tour elevate him to "legendary" status? Hardly.)

I'm not arguing that he's doing better, I'm disputing that he's gone downhill, which is what you originally stated. Other than the TdF (which, again, he probably would've finished in his customary 8th or 9th spot if not for the crashes), this season has been, more or less, just like every other season he's had. With the exception that, at the age of 37, he won the biggest (and, I'd also point out, the longest and toughest) race of his career.
well, post 60 of yours claimed he's riding better now than he ever has.
 

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