Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[blackcat]

folks. the premise you can see doping is flawed.

flawed^2

cant see it re: Bernhard Kohl exhaustion, or Titi Voeckler grimace, or even Moncoutie "realistic" breakaway.
cant see it re:diopassport.

To think seeing is proof of dirt, not seeing is also not proof of not dirt.

that said, in this sport, evans is as clean a champion there is.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

folks. the premise you can see doping is flawed.

flawed^2

cant see it re: Bernhard Kohl exhaustion, or Titi Voeckler grimace, or even Moncoutie "realistic" breakaway.
cant see it re:diopassport.

To think seeing is proof of dirt, not seeing is also not proof of not dirt.

that said, in this sport, evans is as clean a champion there is.

even when journalists describe a performance as "incredible", or "unexpected"?

eg:

Perhaps the biggest surprise is the guy 11 seconds behind the Texan on the overall classification, [redacted] of [redacted].

 

[greenedge]

Thankfully the sport is not like football yet, with individual teams buying up the best riders (though Sky have dipped their toes in these waters a couple of times).

The time for PdB (historically it's very good) surpises me because of how hard he blew up, reality is he probably couldn't have gone much quicker in any case. It's often where people point to as the place he lost the race, I actually think it's the 40" over Peyresourde the next day. I'd say Aubisque was #1 though, that was crazy. Dropped under a minute to Rasmussen and was catching Contador at the end.

Also think that 2008 AdH must have been somewhat affected by his crash, put his PdB or Aubisque performance in there and he wins easily.

It was also CSC tactics that year. I agree with the PdB/ Peyresourde thing. Evans in 2007 and 08 just did not gain enough time in the ITT's. In 07 he was squashed between Contador and Levi- whilst also having to deal with Rasmussen (who gained a lot of time in a break, then climbed great as well) and in 08 Sastre and F. Shleck.

BMC also buy up the best riders- though i do not know how many would have wanted Cadel before he won the WC.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

He was also a relatively inexperienced grand tour rider who could always climb well. Most ex mountain bike riders can : Gadret, Rasmussen, Ryder etc.... Evans would have been expected to improve and seemed to be progressing each year. He was one of the favourites to win the Tour in 2007 and hot favourite in 2008. One mistake in 2007 cost him the win. I don't remember Contador being a hot pick to win in 2007. Evans time trialling was also progressing during those years. Sastre was climbing as well as Evans back then but the TT was his weakness until 2008 when he rode an outstanding TT for him while by Evan's standards he was mediocre. I agree that Evans public statements about doping have been disappointing but no more so than plenty of others currently riding. Expect to see more biographies from retiring riders, spilling their guts or doing a George Hincapie. Hopefully Evans does not do that, not because he has something to hide but because he is telling the truth.

Well, I didn't mean to imply that he was probably clean in 2005. Because I don't think he was. But yeah, his flat TTs, too. He was ridiculously strong back in 2007.. way stronger than in 2011, IMO. His 2007 level would have almost certainly made him competitive in the 2005 (pre-Puerto) Tour. Maybe even for third place.

 

[blackcat]

It was also CSC tactics that year. I agree with the PdB/ Peyresourde thing. Evans in 2007 and 08 just did not gain enough time in the ITT's. In 07 he was squashed between Contador and Levi- whilst also having to deal with Rasmussen (who gained a lot of time in a break, then climbed great as well) and in 08 Sastre and F. Shleck.

BMC also buy up the best riders- though i do not know how many would have wanted Cadel before he won the WC.

Jamie Burrow still has the record for PdB he set in about 2000 at Ronde l'Izard?

Pantani had the record before.

Froomie gotta get Burrow and Augustyn as his pointman in 2014

 

[sniper]

folks. the premise you can see doping is flawed.

flawed^2

cant see it re: Bernhard Kohl exhaustion, or Titi Voeckler grimace, or even Moncoutie "realistic" breakaway.
cant see it re:diopassport.

To think seeing is proof of dirt, not seeing is also not proof of not dirt.

that said, in this sport, evans is as clean a champion there is.

indeed, looking at armstrong 2010 one didn't necessarily 'see' doping, though according to usada he was doped to the eyebrowes.

 

[ebandit]

incredible

even when journalists describe a performance as "incredible", or "unexpected"?

eg:

incredible and unexpected are words to boost the impact of a story

i could look at your post count...............incredible! unexpected!

how could it be achieved without artificial stimulation?

 

[hrotha]

True, but you seem to treat is as an indication that he was most likely much cleaner than the rest. Correct?

Looking at his VAMs another picture emerges, though. He much improved as a climber in '06 and '07. Regardless of what anyone else did.

Oh, I don't think he was necessarily cleaner. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. I'm very much on the fence when it comes to Evans.

I just wanted to point out that, if someone claims Evans was able to compete with the heaviest pre-Puerto dopers therefore he was a doper himself, it should be said that Evans wasn't really a contender back then.

 

[Siriuscat]

Every rider is clean.......till they get caught or burned by the UCI

 

[WinterRider]

It was also CSC tactics that year. I agree with the PdB/ Peyresourde thing. Evans in 2007 and 08 just did not gain enough time in the ITT's. In 07 he was squashed between Contador and Levi- whilst also having to deal with Rasmussen (who gained a lot of time in a break, then climbed great as well) and in 08 Sastre and F. Shleck.

BMC also buy up the best riders- though i do not know how many would have wanted Cadel before he won the WC.

BMC wanted Cadel before his WC. They had the deal in place when he won. Getting the WC was a bonus for them.

 

[blackcat]

Oh, I don't think he was necessarily cleaner. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. I'm very much on the fence when it comes to Evans.

I just wanted to point out that, if someone claims Evans was able to compete with the heaviest pre-Puerto dopers therefore he was a doper himself, it should be said that Evans wasn't really a contender back then.

and no one knows if Evans had Lemond like native potential. Or was a recipient of talent via a hypodermic. My position is the former.

Evans was never a cyclist and one of the boys, an AIS road product, and an alumnus of the clique. So he always stood outside it. Thats what made his win at Mondrisio so impressive. Simon Clarke was the only rider who helped Evans, the tean voted for one leader, Gerro, and Evans got no help. He did it himself. Which to me, says spades. Is instructive to two counts. i) was never inside the system, he always sat outside the team environs. be it national, be it tmob/lotto/ and even BMC he is not the leader like Armstrong was, and rallying the troops. not the charismatic leader that makes others want to work for him. so re:doping. he would be again, doing it on his own. the renegage. but evans personality suggests this unlikely. rominger, ofcourse, would encourage him to fulfill his earning potential, and give him doctors to see in st moritz
ii) talent. evans never really had loyal domestiques lay it out for him on the road when all was at stake. stronger teams and support would have had him winning multiple TdF's imo. So this is a big badge, when you dissect his palmares. he did it his way, and on his own. The late Aldo Sassi's words stick in my brain, about if he won the TdF he would be the most successful rider of his generation. I heard Sassi speak at the doping conference in 2010 Geelong, about two months before he passed, and his words there. He just offered an opinion from the audience. I think it is on youtube. Sassi was not for performance enhancements. He has been on record as Evans had the talent, and Basso the ruthless determination. That is good enuff for me. (I still think he did a little in the past few years tho)

 

[blackcat]

BMC wanted Cadel before his WC. They had the deal in place when he won. Getting the WC was a bonus for them.

that is not my understanding.

he was being shopped around that time, and the worlds remarkably improved his stocks/cache

 

[greenedge]

Actually@Blackcat- i think @WinterRider is right, BMC had offered him a spot but he wanted to do the Worlds then confirm.

@WinterRider, what i meant was before the WC was not a lot of other teams showed much interest in Cadel, that year.

 

[Yingge]

Actually@Blackcat- i think @WinterRider is right, BMC had offered him a spot but he wanted to do the Worlds then confirm.

@WinterRider, what i meant was before the WC was not a lot of other teams showed much interest in Cadel, that year.

According to "Close to Flying" Cadel was in discussions with BMC prior to the WC but nothing had been formally agreed. After his WC win, Jim Ochowicz rang Cadel to congratulate etc and added that he assumed that their 'Project' was off, and was said to be very surprised when Cadel said that nothing had changed. The move to BMC was announced about a month later.

 

[Galic Ho]

Actually@Blackcat- i think @WinterRider is right, BMC had offered him a spot but he wanted to do the Worlds then confirm.

@WinterRider, what i meant was before the WC was not a lot of other teams showed much interest in Cadel, that year.

When everyone put in their two cents on where Evans was going once it was confirmed he was leaving Lotto, only once person said BMC. Most of us didn't think he'd go to a conti level team.

Want to take a guess who that person was? You guys are wrong on this one. Blackcat's view on this one should be the one listened to. Only person on the forum who said he was going to BMC. Blackcat gave several reasons why. How did he know? Do the math and then apply to this scenario. The other guy is wrong.

 

[WinterRider]

When everyone put in their two cents on where Evans was going once it was confirmed he was leaving Lotto, only once person said BMC. Most of us didn't think he'd go to a conti level team.

Want to take a guess who that person was? You guys are wrong on this one. Blackcat's view on this one should be the one listened to. Only person on the forum who said he was going to BMC. Blackcat gave several reasons why. How did he know? Do the math and then apply to this scenario. The other guy is wrong.

I read somewhere at the time that Cadel said they had been working on the deal for months, and that although he couldn't say anything prior to their announcement, it was essentially a done deal before the WC occurred.

I'm sure he got other offers of interest at the very least, but I recall Cadel using language after the announcement that made it sound like it had been BMC all the way since late summer of that year. Of course my recollection may be wrong, and I'm certainly not fussed enough to go look up old articles to confirm this.

 

[Galic Ho]

I read somewhere at the time that Cadel said they had been working on the deal for months, and that although he couldn't say anything prior to their announcement, it was essentially a done deal before the WC occurred.

I'm sure he got other offers of interest at the very least, but I recall Cadel using language after the announcement that made it sound like it had been BMC all the way since late summer of that year. Of course my recollection may be wrong, and I'm certainly not fussed enough to go look up old articles to confirm this.

I was simply reminding people who weren't on this forum to the best of my knowledge, that Blackcat was the only person who predicted Cadel was going to BMC AFTER it was announced he was leaving Lotto.

I always assumed he had a source, like he does for many things that detailed, as do others on the forum. Hence why I'd put more stock in what he says now rather than what some journo wrote. That's all...

Doesn't matter. He's at BMC and it's a better team for his talents and personality. His 2010 and 2011 seasons were very good. I'd say his best two years. Smart and wise move.

 

[blackcat]

When everyone put in their two cents on where Evans was going once it was confirmed he was leaving Lotto, only once person said BMC. Most of us didn't think he'd go to a conti level team.

Want to take a guess who that person was? You guys are wrong on this one. Blackcat's view on this one should be the one listened to. Only person on the forum who said he was going to BMC. Blackcat gave several reasons why. How did he know? Do the math and then apply to this scenario. The other guy is wrong.

actually, I did not know then.

I just put the reasons "why". It was pretty obvious I thought. And I do not have inside info, read my harsh critique of CE. Unlike RaceRadio, definitely no inside sources here. But I think you werre intimating, my reasoned (and rational) decision why.

But the information in his book, may well be the truth. Like these guys say. But most biographies, the official ones, the ghost written ones, are hagiographies, and bare little reference to truth. See Its Not About The Bike and Armstrongs' oeuvre, and Landis' Positively False.

I might well be wrong. Actually, I am leaning to what Evans put to print. He had no reason to lie in the book. Not salacious, and not very interesting fact to move units

 

[blackcat]

I read somewhere at the time that Cadel said they had been working on the deal for months, and that although he couldn't say anything prior to their announcement, it was essentially a done deal before the WC occurred.

I'm sure he got other offers of interest at the very least, but I recall Cadel using language after the announcement that made it sound like it had been BMC all the way since late summer of that year. Of course my recollection may be wrong, and I'm certainly not fussed enough to go look up old articles to confirm this.

actually, our memory differs remarkably.

all the media at the time was speculating who he was negotiating with, "cant find a team", "has some interest", "leaving Lotto"... when he wins Worlds, Lotto wants to own those bands. bind the rainbow

 

[Benotti69]

Evans had a virus in 2012? That is news to me. He rode well for a guy with a virus not his usual level, but then again Hushvod had big problems joining BMC and so did Gilbert.

Were they worried they were being watched?

 

[blackcat]

but 2006?

Hunters' Syndrome diagnosis post Pais Vasco 2006

http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/latest-cycling-news-for-april-24-2006

 

[Ripper]

but 2006?

Hunters' Syndrome diagnosis post Pais Vasco 2006

http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/latest-cycling-news-for-april-24-2006

That was later proven incorrect - http://www.theage.com.au/news/Sport...th-scare-a-myth/2006/06/26/1151174127077.html

Good thing too. Hunter's Syndrome is life limiting.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Just wondering what mysterious 'virus' Cadel has had for the last year as he keeps citing it as the reason for his poor form last season and the start of this one. Given the length of time it's taking for him to recover from it and the drastic effect it has on his athletic ability I'm surprised it doesn't have a name.

 

[Ripper]

Just wondering what mysterious 'virus' Cadel has had for the last year as he keeps citing it as the reason for his poor form last season and the start of this one. Given the length of time it's taking for him to recover from it and the drastic effect it has on his athletic ability I'm surprised it doesn't have a name.

I actually commented on the same in one of the news articles. Viruses have names. The ones that knock you out for a while (e.g. EB) are certainly shared fairly openly (see Dodgers' past comments) as a reason for performance drop.

So what's the big secret?

He seems to still be really quite 'scared' of going into the red or digging deep. Makes me doubt he can be ready for le Tour.

 

[hrotha]

My guess is the virus is called "being too old and over the hill", but he refuses to accept it and keeps asking for a second and a third and a fourth opinion.