Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[JMBeaushrimp]

Except he did exactly that by immediatley throwing up a Godwin by throwing up the worlds most hated Cyclist

No I didn't.

My point by referencing LA was to show that "the will to win" argument is banal, over played, and carries no weight as it's been used as an excuse as to why someone can legitimately dominate.

It professes that most competitors don't have that will to win.

That's utter bullsh*t.

If that was the case there would never be a successful breakaway, a surprise win, or a photo finish.

Also, I didn't realize LA has achieved the level of Nazism in regards to Godwin's Law.

Talk about frothing...

 

[JimmyFingers]

I don't know about will to win exactly but mental fortitude, motivation and mood can all affect physical performance. Often I feel people desire to boil performance down to simply one or two factors, and there are clearly many more variables that make up a rider's performance throughout his or her career, which don't suit the argument that you win ergo you dope, but do exist, as much as some people try to deny them.

I agree that a 'will to win' can and does make people make dubious moral choices.

 

[Clausfarre]

As long as we consider every pro a criminal unless proven clean this will halt any chance of communication. Besides, it's a travesty of justice and of our morals. Innocent till proven guilty, not the other way around.

It would be, if the UCI banned someone without proof. We, as observers, are free to pass judgment based on the mountains of circumstantial evidence any way we see fit. As we did in the 90s (vindicated) and 00s (ditto).

 

[Granville57]

<snip>
As long as we consider every pro a criminal unless proven clean this will halt any chance of communication. Besides, it's a travesty of justice and of our morals. Innocent till proven guilty, not the other way around.

Not sure whether this is considered OT or not but this is one hell of a post

Even with that conclusion?

The Clinic 12
Dolling out "justice" as it sees fit.
Destroying careers.
Destroying lives.

 

[Granville57]

How awesome would it be to end a career with a positive after the Grio? Please lord

 

[The Hitch]

which don't suit the argument that you win ergo you dope, but do exist, as much as some people try to deny them.

Who denied them

In fact the one person that did - Robbie was arguing the oppisite - that doping and winning have no correlation.

 

[Archibald]

Not sure whether this is considered OT or not but this is one hell of a post

Really? what's it got to do with Evans?


Also looks like the earlier comments about getting dropped by Pozzivivo proved wrong in the last stage (9) - or is that considered not 'being dropped' but 'letting go'?

 

[Franklin]

Even with that conclusion?

The Clinic 12
Dolling out "justice" as it sees fit.
Destroying careers.
Destroying lives.

Ok, that strawman just imolated itself, I didn't even need to make an effort to burn it down.

I didn't say remotely close to anything of that list.

I assume you are going to tell us all how you lost your glasses? or is there another reason for this bizarre rant?

 

[greenedge]

Sky is not USPS. Wiggins is not a talentless clown. Wiggins does not change weight a la Ulrich (who himself didn't change weight as dramatic as we think). The peloton certainly looks cleaner (BP profiles, certain change in tone of those involved, harder sanctions from sponsors).

Is it clean? Can we rest? Do I trust Wiggins? Hell no. But acting as if we are still in the Lance days is just plain idiotic. And let's try to stick to verifiable things.

He changed weight quite quickly from PR to ToC- one of my 2 posts in the clinic.

 

[Granville57]

I didn't say remotely close to anything of that list.
I assume you are going to tell us all how you lost your glasses? or is there another reason for this bizarre rant?

Context, my friend. Context.

I was referring to the highlighted:

As long as we consider every pro a criminal unless proven clean this will halt any chance of communication. Besides, it's a travesty of justice and of our morals. Innocent till proven guilty, not the other way around.

Nor was I the only to dispute such assertions:

It would be, if the UCI banned someone without proof. We, as observers, are free to pass judgment based on the mountains of circumstantial evidence any way we see fit.

Hence my hyperbolic addendum:

The Clinic 12
Dolling out "justice" as it sees fit.
Destroying careers.
Destroying lives.

Which is a recurring theme of mine. (Don't you follow all of my posts religiously? )

To recap:
I simply find it absurd to toss around words like "justice" (or any other legal references that are often used) when referring to what goes on in The Clinic.

Of course, having to break it down and explain it like that takes all the fun out of posting in the first place.

 

[Franklin]

I simply find it absurd to toss around words like "justice" (or any other legal references that are often used) when referring to what goes on in The Clinic.

I'm not sure how you square this with the anger that the UCI does not do what we want.

If you have a profesional life, you know you don't talk to people like:

"Hey you! You work at a bank. As most banks have been involved with fraud proof to me you are not a fraudster."

Yet this is the tone at this forum....

I simply find it absurd to toss around words like "justice" (or any other legal references that are often used) when referring to what goes on in The Clinic.

And yet we judge and get extremely upset why the UCI does not follow our judgement. Seems it's not me who takes it out of context.....

If the concept of justice bothers you so much I'd guess you and I are very different people. As I think morality is more important than the wailing at this spec of the internet. If we want to tackle the issue we need to do it in the framework of our justice system. Yet that's not what's happening here, making the possibility of what we want becoming reality zero.

You are free to judge and scream shrill without evidence, but recognize what it is: You will be the angry bitter man cursing in your stale beer


And on your 4 talking points. I accept your stumbling appology that you were just ranting at me without any connection to what I said

 

[Franklin]

He changed weight quite quickly from PR to ToC- one of my 2 posts in the clinic.

Says who besides Wiggins?

We certainly can't see it in the pictures TheHog plasters here with much relish.

Again:
1. We know for a fact Wiggins seldom tells the truth about these things.
2. We know for a fact that indeed most riders are bull****ting about numbers (weight, wattage).
3. We know that indeed being open about weight is key for transparency. Is all of a sudden the claim that Wiggo is transparent?

I take his comments about his weight change as I take all things Wiggins says: Nice to know, but usually noise without any ground in reality.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

These are very imp points when discussing cadel the thing evans

 

[Granville57]

If we want to tackle the issue we need to do it in the framework of our justice system. Yet that's not what's happening here...

Interestingly enough, this is not a justice system, it's an internet forum.

You're welcome.

 

[stutue]

Well anyway, success seems to be a prime indicator of doping according to what one reads in other threads so on the basis of the Giro so far its pretty safe to assume that the Aussies in particular have taken their doping up to the max.

 

[blackcat]

I'm not sure how you square this with the anger that the UCI does not do what we want.

If you have a profesional life, you know you don't talk to people like:

"Hey you! You work at a bank. As most banks have been involved with fraud proof to me you are not a fraudster."

Yet this is the tone at this forum....



And yet we judge and get extremely upset why the UCI does not follow our judgement. Seems it's not me who takes it out of context.....

If the concept of justice bothers you so much I'd guess you and I are very different people. As I think morality is more important than the wailing at this spec of the internet. If we want to tackle the issue we need to do it in the framework of our justice system. Yet that's not what's happening here, making the possibility of what we want becoming reality zero.

You are free to judge and scream shrill without evidence, but recognize what it is: You will be the angry bitter man cursing in your stale beer


And on your 4 talking points. I accept your stumbling appology that you were just ranting at me without any connection to what I said

who cares, i merely come back here to have fun, as i have stopped caring about cycling long ago, but talking about riders and doping is my entertainment. its infinitely amusing,


you may well say small minds, you would prolly be right

 

[JimmyFingers]

Blackcat, an admirable sentiment

 

[gillan1969]

I'm not sure how you square this with the anger that the UCI does not do what we want.

If you have a profesional life, you know you don't talk to people like:

"Hey you! You work at a bank. As most banks have been involved with fraud proof to me you are not a fraudster."

Yet this is the tone at this forum....

well...you should...

the european pro peloton is like the very elite of the investment banking...and yes, investment banking is a murky murky business...i mean, i don't know which scandal you want to discuss, libor, madoff, exchange swaps, sub prime etc etc etc...

the rest of us racers are very much like the vast majority of bankers...neither do we take PEDS and neither do the bankers commit fraud...

however the clinic's tone on the pros is bang on.....

 

[blackcat]

damn lost post to the interweb ether

Evans wont win, he always fades in the third week, unless motoman delivers him so blood from ocean grove

will motoman do his hema delivery

motoman one of the superheroes from the league of extraordinary gentlemen innit? moto man ftw

gr8 post blackcat

 

[webvan]

Dude's old and worn out...

 

[DirtyWorks]

As I think morality is more important than the wailing at this spec of the internet. If we want to tackle the issue we need to do it in the framework of our justice system.

Whose justice system applies in a situation where an almost random assortment of Polish, French, Italian, British, American, etc. citizens are in Italy racing against each other? And what about the Aussie living in Italy racing in Belgium or Spain?

If cycling has proven anything, it is that morals are the surest path to suffering, low wages, and a hard scrabble existence in pro cycling.

We have published admissions of federation leaders and IOC Presidents suppressing positives generated in a system they designed to permit some doping. Ethics and morals are a liability.

 

[Spider1964]

Evans performance in the TT is no more an indication that he is NOT doping, as his performances in the Giro up until now ARE an indication of doping.

The forum suspects, the forum pontificates.. but the forum does not know.

 

[The Hitch]

Evans performance in the TT is no more an indication that he is NOT doping, as his performances in the Giro up until now ARE an indication of doping.

Why would it be an indication of not doping? He came 3rd in a long grand tour tt at the age of 37.

 

[blackcat]

Why would it be an indication of not doping? He came 3rd in a long grand tour tt at the age of 37.

Spider's case is based on a spurious definition of "know", like what is the definition of "is".

off to philosophy 101 for you Spider. we are just using the norm in Anglophone rhetoric and dialogue.

you should do yourself a favour and stay out of the Clinic

 

[Archibald]

Why would it be an indication of not doping? He came 3rd in a long grand tour tt at the age of 37.

against such notable TT'ers as...