Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[Dear Wiggo]

CN had a webpage dedicated to Ferrari and his race reports, etc in 2003/4. They even say he is someone who pushes the limits.

It's not that hard to imagine a few years before that his doping practices were not as well known. Not to my way of thinking at least.

Good point re: the USPS guys - they were certainly learning something new when Armstrong introduced them to Ferrari.

 

[Tinman]

He also seems to hold all 3 of the fastest times for Cauberg, which if i recall correctly where significantly better than anything anyone else has ever done on there.

Its also worth bearing in mind that in 2010 and 2011 he spent half the climb celebrating, and both those ascents involved a harder run in than the descent run in we had this year at Amstel and worlds.

the funniest thing is, Gilbert is making a mockery of Rebellin and Di Luca and Valverdes times up these climbs from the dope free era, and yet, all i read in the press is how cycling is cleaner because the times are falling.

And how Gilbert is 1 of the most anti doping riders in the peloton.

Since his performance at the worlds after he crossed the line (ie the **** scared look on his face) and a totally failed 2012 before that I have now also come to the conclusion Gilbert is not clean (in all of his races).

Although don't you think the short climbs (eg Cauberg vs Alpe d'Huez) put different requirements on the anaerobic system, ie are less EPO responsive? I think much of the short climbs could be considered highly anaerobic for Gilbert.

 

[blackcat]

You don't find Gilbert's complete and utter plummet from form this year after last year's epicness even a little bit strange?

no, I dont.

He was peaking for Worlds. And a double chance for London Olympics

 

[Ferminal]

blackcat where you been? Gilbert peaked for the whole of 2011. Compared to a whole two weeks this year. In 2011 he was in Worlds winning form from March to September.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

blackcat where you been? Gilbert peaked for the whole of 2011. Compared to a whole two weeks this year. In 2011 he was in Worlds winning from March to September.

There you go. In 2012, Wiggins did a Gilbert. In 2013...

Well frankly I hope Cadel does a Gilbert in 2013, but if he does it's gonna look dodgy as ...

 

[blackcat]

Since his performance at the worlds after he crossed the line (ie the **** scared look on his face) and a totally failed 2012 before that I have now also come to the conclusion Gilbert is not clean (in all of his races).

Although don't you think the short climbs (eg Cauberg vs Alpe d'Huez) put different requirements on the anaerobic system, ie are less EPO responsive? I think much of the short climbs could be considered highly anaerobic for Gilbert.

Evans by rights shoulda won a truckload of Ardennes titles imo, robbed out of wins. Not to say he is clean now, but can justify some recovery therapy. Gilbert went the full hog (sic) around that Het Volk breakaway, but would have always been on some gear. Definition of "some"

 

[blackcat]

blackcat where you been?

I have been on my bike

Where

HVE YOU BEEN?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxnqHvEbGnc

 

[blackcat]

Absolutely I do. For the record I think they are both dopers. When I said 'interesting theory' to Ferminal's comment about Evan's being the winner if you took out all the dopers in LBL I just thought it odd you would take out Gilbert but not Evans.

If you had to build a circumstantial case around each I would say Evan's is the easier to build. Both same result though in my opinion.

If I were to re-assign a recent LBL to another top 10 rider I would probably only choose the year Gerran's finished 6th.

gERro, the rider who went to colorado to train with levi and lance in prep for 2010 TdF

 

[Galic Ho]

gERro, the rider who went to colorado to train with levi and lance in prep for 2010 TdF

I think we should not remind people of that. Greenedge have enough troubles at the moment. Gotta let the people hold onto their fantasies don't we?

Nah, hard cold dose of the truth will awake most folk. Most folk. For the rest...who cares?

When I saw that video with Lance and Levi in Colorado and trailing behind them was Gerrans, who dropped the F-bomb BTW (to Lance and Levi's dismay...breaking the PR charade hey) my first impression was he seemed to be having the time of his life. Then I knew he was dodgy. Really dodgy. If I was an SBS cycling journo, come January at the TdU, my first question would be about the nature of that trip and his relationship with two established dopers. My bad...Levi wasn't doping in 2010 was he? Well actually he was well below normal in Cali, when Rogers won and Levi couldn't beat Zabriskie or a well below 2012 level Rogers. Nah, Floyd shook the doping vine in Cali and scared the Shack boys off. That was all.

So my stance is they toned the doping down, but they were still doping. Gerrans had no need to tone the doping down at all, let alone hang with those two. Those of us clued in know how the doping game was played by those two...no excuses. Someone needs to put the hard questions to Gerrans.

 

[blackcat]

I think we should not remind people of that. Greenedge have enough troubles at the moment. Gotta let the people hold onto their fantasies don't we?

Nah, hard cold dose of the truth will awake most folk. Most folk. For the rest...who cares?

When I saw that video with Lance and Levi in Colorado and trailing behind them was Gerrans, who dropped the F-bomb BTW (to Lance and Levi's dismay...breaking the PR charade hey) my first impression was he seemed to be having the time of his life. Then I knew he was dodgy. Really dodgy. If I was an SBS cycling journo, come January at the TdU, my first question would be about the nature of that trip and his relationship with two established dopers. My bad...Levi wasn't doping in 2010 was he? Well actually he was well below normal in Cali, when Rogers won and Levi couldn't beat Zabriskie or a well below 2012 level Rogers. Nah, Floyd shook the doping vine in Cali and scared the Shack boys off. That was all.

So my stance is they toned the doping down, but they were still doping. Gerrans had no need to tone the doping down at all, let alone hang with those two. Those of us clued in know how the doping game was played by those two...no excuses. Someone needs to put the hard questions to Gerrans.

nah. Gerro is doing nothing wrong. As per peloton's norms. They decide the rules. You dont. I dont.

Gerro has always followed wheels. I thought he would win Ardennes and Worlds, cos besides Cavendish, he has the best nose for the line. And the tactics in his races, tangibibly different and require a different tactical nous, to field sprints. The fact he has won a stage in all 3 GTs is phenomenal. Win worlds, and win an Ardennes, and he is easily Australia's second best behind Evans, and over his mentor Skippy. Thats a big call.

 

[Galic Ho]

nah. Gerro is doing nothing wrong. As per peloton's norms. They decide the rules. You dont. I dont.

Gerro has always followed wheels. I thought he would win Ardennes and Worlds, cos besides Cavendish, he has the best nose for the line. And the tactics in his races, tangibibly different and require a different tactical nous, to field sprints. The fact he has won a stage in all 3 GTs is phenomenal. Win worlds, and win an Ardennes, and he is easily Australia's second best behind Evans, and over his mentor Skippy. Thats a big call.

I know he is doing nothing wrong per se regarding the rest of the peloton's norms. I'd given him some leeway till then...just seeing an Aussie back slapping Lance and Levi was nasty. Bad taste. I know it's the norm, but few Aussies had gone out and advertised it. Hanging with those two and some of his anti-doping speak...absolute pure lol moments. I had an issue with the advertising of it. Keeping it on the down low is far smarter.

Win the Worlds or one of the Ardennes? I know that was the aim. Especially now at Greenedge. He was nowhere at the Worlds. So far from the front it wasn't funny at the moment he needed to be. The Belgians had the best placement. Even Valverde, who had a smidgen of a chance of winning, was out of place and he had the entire Spanish team with him, Samu, Contador and Freire. Only he was in place.

I've found Gerrans to be the opposite of what you say. Early on in the season, yes he can compete against Valverde for a win. But latter on? I've never seen it. He can be there for say Amstel, but the rest he is out of the picture. It's his positioning I have a problem with. It use to be his ability to mark a big move, now it's positioning. He's been tactically getting better from 2010 onwards, but in 2009 the entire team voted for him to lead the team in Mendrisio (excluding Evans who voted for himself) and I knew what would happen. Someone would make a move and he'd have nothing to mark it with. I also knew Cadel would have what it took to at least cover the move. And that was how it played out. I've never understood this ragged determination Gerrans inspire and gets from so many, particularly the other riders and Aussie officials. Cadel never, ever got the same level of support and yet did much better.

If Gilbert gets back to 2011 form, aka, gets his doping right, Gerrans doesn't stand a chance. That's really the measure he needs. To be at that level or where Rodriguez has been this year. Plus I think that level requires some serious preparation with the vampires. He's about as likely IMO as Dan Martin to win and Dan has over half a decade in his favour to improve.

Actually the way I've seen Gerrans improve is akin to Gilbert and what the Belgians managed with him, but to a lesser degree. Their aims are similar. Similar, yet a bit older in age. I say give 2013 a chance and then move on. Aussie officials need to learn to move on. Let him get stage wins in GT's...his wins were solid, but the same as Gilberts. Hence my comparison...they are similar type riders. IMO the Aussie team should focus on Haussler (but I am not sure he is doing much if any medical assistance given his results) or if they really want someone who is close to getting a big one, go with the Tassie boy. Richie Porte. Porte is dialed in, on the page, get him to stop supporting Sky leaders as much, go for a win in the Ardennes, or a lower classic, and then the worlds. Problem is he rides for a British team. They won't allow an Aussie to train hard and beat them at the worlds. They'll wear him out mid season and have him pulling Wiggins and Froome up mountains. If they can win, IMO, Richie can as well. He's to me the most naturally gifted of the Sky big 4. The Brits will however IMO, play the Brit card and that is Geraint Thomas and Kennard. Thomas will be their focus and EBH. Porte could fill the role though. Be interesting to see if he stays after 2013.

 

[ebandit]

as if

Evans by rights shoulda won a truckload of Ardennes titles imo, robbed out of wins. Not to say he is clean now, but can justify some recovery therapy. Gilbert went the full hog (sic) around that Het Volk breakaway, but would have always been on some gear. Definition of "some"

what if evans robbed others of their placings?

thats where we are right now.........who to trust

would evans welcome any samples from that period being retested?

 

[movingtarget]

gERro, the rider who went to colorado to train with levi and lance in prep for 2010 TdF

I'm not convinced of that. Gerrans had been around a long time before he won good races. The stage wins in the grand tours were the result of getting in the right break with guys that can't sprint much and he has a pretty good sprint for a guy that can climb well. He beat Valverde who was on the comeback trail at the TDU and you don't have to be a great rider to win that race. Meyer has already won it and not much else. Gerrans has been roundabouts in the hilly classics and his win at MSR was just a a good tactical ride against two guys that can't sprint much. I really don't see any reason to be suspicious about Gerrans. He seems to target the races that suit him and never seems to hold his form for a long time. For example at the World's on a course that really suited him, he was disappointing. He never regained his Spring form.

 

[Galic Ho]

I'm not convinced of that. Gerrans had been around a long time before he won good races. The stage wins in the grand tours were the result of getting in the right break with guys that can't sprint much and he has a pretty good sprint for a guy that can climb well. He beat Valverde who was on the comeback trail at the TDU and you don't have to be a great rider to win that race. Meyer has already won it and not much else. Gerrans has been roundabouts in the hilly classics and his win at MSR was just a a good tactical ride against two guys that can't sprint much. I really don't see any reason to be suspicious about Gerrans. He seems to target the races that suit him and never seems to hold his form for a long time. For example at the World's on a course that really suited him, he was disappointing. He never regained his Spring form.

He was equal on time with Valverde and up the lone hill finish (Wilunga Hill), Valverde beat him for the stage win. Contrast that Valverde, with the end of season Valverde. There is no comparison. Valverde is quite a way above Gerrans in what they put out on the road. Valverde himself mentioned it yesterday...check the news articles on the main page.

Anyone riding with Armstrong and Levi willingly for training in 2010 is by extension suspicious. Doesn't matter who they are.

As for beating guys in sprints. Yeah, there was a video of Gerrans Giro win up on the forum. Trailing at the back was a Barloworld rider. Chris Froome. Gerrans smoked him. BTW, MSR is no chump change race. After the Ardennes, Roubaix and Flanders, it is the next biggest classic with Lombardia. Winning that is no small feat. That is also the only classic Cavendish has won. It's well known that Gerrans peaks from January to April and that is it. There really is little point to him peaking for the May to August period...he'd leave with next to no results if he did.

 

[maltiv]

I'm not convinced of that. Gerrans had been around a long time before he won good races. The stage wins in the grand tours were the result of getting in the right break with guys that can't sprint much and he has a pretty good sprint for a guy that can climb well. He beat Valverde who was on the comeback trail at the TDU and you don't have to be a great rider to win that race. Meyer has already won it and not much else. Gerrans has been roundabouts in the hilly classics and his win at MSR was just a a good tactical ride against two guys that can't sprint much. I really don't see any reason to be suspicious about Gerrans. He seems to target the races that suit him and never seems to hold his form for a long time. For example at the World's on a course that really suited him, he was disappointing. He never regained his Spring form.

Gerrans actually even rode a year in a small Norwegian team (Team Ringerike) when he was young. Mads Kaggestad, who rode with him at that point, said that Gerrans wasn't really considered to be particularly talented at all. He's really surprised that he has turned out to be a world class rider.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Gerrans is a guy who, a few years ago, was a really interesting prospect, with great tactical sense to choose the right breaks and get good wins.

Then, he became a contender for the hilly classics, inasmuch as Haimar Zubeldia was a challenger for Grand Tours. He gave up all that tactical nous for the opportunity to come 7th in the uphill sprint from the bunch. And yet he was consistently being talked up as a major contender, when he was to puncheur finishes what José Joaquín Rojas is to sprints. The idea that the whole Australian team backed him over Evans in Mendrisio is proof either that Evans is unbelievably unpopular or Australian cyclists don't have a clue and let their hearts rule their heads, because in 2009 Evans was so much better as an option for the win on that course than Gerrans.

I'm glad that Gerrans has seemed to have come out of his shell a bit again, and has been prepared to take those risks that won him races back in his Crédit Agricole and Cervélo days, because allying the stronger Gerrans of the last 2-3 years with the more tactically astute gambler of the 2-3 years before that has created someone who is actually a genuine challenger to win any (non-cobbled) Classic, not somebody who gets talked up because they won Plouay and happen to come from Australia.

 

[maltiv]

I'm glad that Gerrans has seemed to have come out of his shell a bit again, and has been prepared to take those risks that won him races back in his Crédit Agricole and Cervélo days, because allying the stronger Gerrans of the last 2-3 years with the more tactically astute gambler of the 2-3 years before that has created someone who is actually a genuine challenger to win any (non-cobbled) Classic, not somebody who gets talked up because they won Plouay and happen to come from Australia.

Not so sure about the 2-3 years part. He did virtually nothing at Sky. He barely even scored any CQ points, in 2010 he earned 140 points (with no results to speak of) and 700 in 2011 (where winning Tour of Denmark and getting third in Amstel were the only highlights).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not so sure about the 2-3 years part. He did virtually nothing at Sky. He barely even scored any CQ points, in 2010 he earned 140 points (with no results to speak of) and 700 in 2011 (where winning Tour of Denmark and getting third in Amstel were the only highlights).

2 years then, rather than 3. But the lack of highlights is more or less everything I mean about Gerrans. He isn't stronger than Gilbert, Rodríguez or a few others on those finishes that suit them, yet for some reason after 2009 he decided his best option for Classics was to sit in the pack and do nothing, then hope that those guys punctured with 2km to go en masse or something. He'd then get an OK-but-not-great placement from the uphill sprint, and people would then point to this to justify calling him a major threat to win.

Either way, the guy is a better rider now and takes more risks to win races.

 

[blackcat]

Gerrans actually even rode a year in a small Norwegian team (Team Ringerike) when he was young. Mads Kaggestad, who rode with him at that point, said that Gerrans wasn't really considered to be particularly talented at all. He's really surprised that he has turned out to be a world class rider.

Gerrans work ethic is a MAJOR talent. Make no doubt, no mistake. Guy wills it.

 

[blackcat]

what if evans robbed others of their placings?

thats where we are right now.........who to trust

would evans welcome any samples from that period being retested?

this is a valid critique of my position.

what is my credibility, and evidence, Evans naturally deserves to be the most winning rider on selective parcours and grand tours.

I concede the flaw, lack of universality in my judgement standard. I am using intuition. Also, Quickstep's Chavanel, is well regarded as a giant within the French peloton for his "natural" ability.

 

[Tinman]

is there anything that would stop UCI ruling that biopassport data should be publicly released/available? Would rapidly put the onus on rider to explain rather than authority to rule "positive"... Maybe with a 3 month time delay or similar?

Appreciate that it's considered "sensitive" but actually why would it be if available for all pro riders? It's not power output data...

 

[greenedge]

As for beating guys in sprints. Yeah, there was a video of Gerrans Giro win up on the forum. Trailing at the back was a Barloworld rider. Chris Froome. Gerrans smoked him. BTW, MSR is no chump change race. After the Ardennes, Roubaix and Flanders, it is the next biggest classic with Lombardia. Winning that is no small feat. That is also the only classic Cavendish has won. It's well known that Gerrans peaks from January to April and that is it. There really is little point to him peaking for the May to August period...he'd leave with next to no results if he did.

But he has won 2 GT stages in that time period. Also he won in Canada this year.

 

[greenedge]

I'm glad that Gerrans has seemed to have come out of his shell a bit again, and has been prepared to take those risks that won him races back in his Crédit Agricole and Cervélo days, because allying the stronger Gerrans of the last 2-3 years with the more tactically astute gambler of the 2-3 years before that has created someone who is actually a genuine challenger to win any (non-cobbled) Classic, not somebody who gets talked up because they won Plouay and happen to come from Australia.

That is a good point and seems to summarise the rider Gerrans is now.
I remember at the start of the year (or last year) you were criticising him for trying to just focus on Ardennes but he seems to have more of a lease now riding for OGE.

 

[greenedge]

Win the Worlds or one of the Ardennes? I know that was the aim. Especially now at Greenedge. He was nowhere at the Worlds. So far from the front it wasn't funny at the moment he needed to be. The Belgians had the best placement. Even Valverde, who had a smidgen of a chance of winning, was out of place and he had the entire Spanish team with him, Samu, Contador and Freire. Only he was in place.
Actually the way I've seen Gerrans improve is akin to Gilbert and what the Belgians managed with him, but to a lesser degree. Their aims are similar. Similar, yet a bit older in age. I say give 2013 a chance and then move on. Aussie officials need to learn to move on. Let him get stage wins in GT's...his wins were solid, but the same as Gilberts. Hence my comparison...they are similar type riders. IMO the Aussie team should focus on Haussler (but I am not sure he is doing much if any medical assistance given his results) or if they really want someone who is close to getting a big one, go with the Tassie boy. Richie Porte. Porte is dialed in, on the page, get him to stop supporting Sky leaders as much, go for a win in the Ardennes, or a lower classic, and then the worlds. Problem is he rides for a British team. They won't allow an Aussie to train hard and beat them at the worlds. They'll wear him out mid season and have him pulling Wiggins and Froome up mountains. If they can win, IMO, Richie can as well. He's to me the most naturally gifted of the Sky big 4. The Brits will however IMO, play the Brit card and that is Geraint Thomas and Kennard. Thomas will be their focus and EBH. Porte could fill the role though. Be interesting to see if he stays after 2013.

I hope Porte does not stay after 2013. Froome does also seem talented and has been been affected by his illness, Wiggins was just a track rider and Rogers had not been the same from his 07 crash but was a great ITTer- who then did not focus on it and still would have got smashed by Cancellara.

Clarke did too much work too early. Clarke has the potential to be the next rider who can compete at the Ardennes, just like most (and i though Vanendert did this year).

 

[Galic Ho]

But he has won 2 GT stages in that time period. Also he won in Canada this year.

Not in the last three years he doesn't. That is the point. Libertine and Blackcat made it...he's changed and whilst improving, he needs to get more of the old nous back in his racing strategy. Having Greenedge pull all race for him to sprint up a hill against Gilbert or Rodriguez is not a winning strategy. Relies too heavily on others making mistakes.