Cancellara Thread

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Sagan was the strongest rider without a doubt today! Cancellera couldnt even bring in 15 on the flat on him so he definitely wouldnt be able on the climbs!

Where do you think Cancellara would have been if you put him in there with Sagan and Vanmarcke in the last Kwaremont-Patersberg shootout?

You honestly think Sagan would have dropped Cancellara there, like Cancellara dropped Sagan in 2013? I don't see it.

Canc would have dropped Sagan or it would have been the two of them with highly uncertain outcome.

I actually think Sagan would drop Cancellara on Paterberg. He was insanely strong. He gave Vanmarcke 15 sec in 150-200m

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

Sagan was the strongest rider without a doubt today! Cancellera couldnt even bring in 15 on the flat on him so he definitely wouldnt be able on the climbs!

Where do you think Cancellara would have been if you put him in there with Sagan and Vanmarcke in the last Kwaremont-Patersberg shootout?

You honestly think Sagan would have dropped Cancellara there, like Cancellara dropped Sagan in 2013? I don't see it.

Canc would have dropped Sagan or it would have been the two of them with highly uncertain outcome.

I actually think Sagan would drop Cancellara on Paterberg. He was insanely strong. He gave Vanmarcke 15 sec in 150-200m

No.

If you rewatch the ascent of Paterberg, you will notice that Sagan only gained 1 second on Fabian. It was 13 seconds at the bottom and 14 at the top.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Sagan was the strongest rider without a doubt today! Cancellera couldnt even bring in 15 on the flat on him so he definitely wouldnt be able on the climbs!

Where do you think Cancellara would have been if you put him in there with Sagan and Vanmarcke in the last Kwaremont-Patersberg shootout?

You honestly think Sagan would have dropped Cancellara there, like Cancellara dropped Sagan in 2013? I don't see it.

Canc would have dropped Sagan or it would have been the two of them with highly uncertain outcome.

I actually think Sagan would drop Cancellara on Paterberg. He was insanely strong. He gave Vanmarcke 15 sec in 150-200m

No.

If you rewatch the ascent of Paterberg, you will notice that Sagan only gained 1 second on Fabian. It was 13 seconds at the bottom and 14 at the top.

You're maybe right, but Sagan went full gas from half of the Paterberg, while Cancellara did that from the bottom. Anyway I guess we'll never know

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

Sagan was the strongest rider without a doubt today! Cancellera couldnt even bring in 15 on the flat on him so he definitely wouldnt be able on the climbs!

Where do you think Cancellara would have been if you put him in there with Sagan and Vanmarcke in the last Kwaremont-Patersberg shootout?

You honestly think Sagan would have dropped Cancellara there, like Cancellara dropped Sagan in 2013? I don't see it.

Canc would have dropped Sagan or it would have been the two of them with highly uncertain outcome.

I actually think Sagan would drop Cancellara on Paterberg. He was insanely strong. He gave Vanmarcke 15 sec in 150-200m

No.

If you rewatch the ascent of Paterberg, you will notice that Sagan only gained 1 second on Fabian. It was 13 seconds at the bottom and 14 at the top.

You're maybe right, but Sagan went full gas from half of the Paterberg, while Cancellara did that from the bottom. Anyway I guess we'll never know

It was actually from the middle of the climb I'm counting. As the white banner on the right side starts, basically just before it really kicks up the gradient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GAium61RVk

 

[hrotha]

Presumably, Cancellara didn't try to bridge to Sagan and Kwiatkowski, or to go with Vanmarcke, because he preferred to stick to his conservative race plan. He's been like that for a couple of years now. I guess he forgot that "no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force".

 

[jsem94]

I think Cance would have rode away from everyone on the Kwaremont had it been all together. He should never have let them go, and I think he won't repeat that mistake at PR. Barring any unfortunate events he should be favorite for PR.

 

[pedromiguelmartins]

Re:

I think Cance would have rode away from everyone on the Kwaremont had it been all together. He should never have let them go, and I think he won't repeat that mistake at PR. Barring any unfortunate events he should be favorite for PR.

That doesn't count for much. Sagan worked much more to stay away, worked more from further out, put time on Fabian on the Patenberg and the flat.

Fab would've been dropped like a stone. That was Sagan's RVV.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

I think Cance would have rode away from everyone on the Kwaremont had it been all together. He should never have let them go, and I think he won't repeat that mistake at PR. Barring any unfortunate events he should be favorite for PR.

That doesn't count for much. Sagan worked much more to stay away, worked more from further out, put time on Fabian on the Patenberg and the flat.

Fab would've been dropped like a stone. That was Sagan's RVV.

While it is true that Sagan attacked from further away, then it is also true that he had the company of Kwiatkowski and Vanmarcke for much of the way. From Kwaremont Fabian had nobody and yet he was as fast as Sagan up Paterberg. I'm not trying to take away that Sagan was slightly stronger yesterday, cause he probably was, but your comment is blinded for how the race actually unfolded. Perhaps you should rewatch it again

 

[jens_attacks]

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

Totally agree, but it is likely to have been a different scenario if Fabian had not missed the move (kudos to Sagan for jumping with Kwiat). The outcome would probably be Peter and Fabian coming to the finish line together and Peter winning.

For what it's worth here are some self-clocked times up Paterberg the last few years:

Cancellara - 2013 Paterberg: 1min 10sec
Sagan - 2013 Paterberg: 1min 15 sec
Cancellara - 2014 Paterberg: (with Vanmarcke): 1min 16 sec
Cancellara - 2016 Paterberg: 1min 14 sec
Sagan - 2016 Paterberg: 1min 16 sec

Interesting that Sagan was actually faster up Paterberg in 2013 than this year, which is probabl a consequence of Fabian's furious pace at the bottom from the climb.

 

[Miburo]

No kudos to Sagan, canc just *** up really hard. I mean you've raced for 15 years and you still don't have the instincts to go with that move?

This is kwiat and sagan (2 of the main favorites), thinking fodder teams were gonna close that gap was naive and maybe showed canc didn't feel amazing.

But even then, when vanmarcke went there was no excuse, he should have been there.

Amateur move. And that's been canc's biggest weakness

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

Amateur move. And that's been canc's biggest weakness

Big legs, small brain. The Ullrich curse.

 

[Cannibal72]

Come on, guys. An attack from 31 km out in one of the hardest, longest races of the year is not a move that it's terminally stupid not to mark, especially when the three riders in question are all reasonably young and not certain to go the distance. Tactically, Sagan played it pretty well, but it doesn't automatically mean Cance cocked it up; if Cance had joined the group, then I have no idea who would have chased it down, so Sagan could have rested for the last 3km and everyone would abuse Cance for making the same mistake as in G-W. I think Sagan was simply stronger on the Paterburg, and the moment where EQS caught him isolated was crucial: Devolder was impressive, but had Stuyven and Theuns been there fresh, the chase would have been quite a lot easier.

 

[Lance Armstrong]

Re: Re:

Interesting that Sagan was actually faster up Paterberg in 2013 than this year, which is probabl a consequence of Fabian's furious pace at the bottom from the climb.

Different route. Last 50km were easier in 2013. Plus, Sagan attacked 15km earlier this year.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

No kudos to Sagan, canc just **** up really hard. I mean you've raced for 15 years and you still don't have the instincts to go with that move?

This is kwiat and sagan (2 of the main favorites), thinking fodder teams were gonna close that gap was naive and maybe showed canc didn't feel amazing.

But even then, when vanmarcke went there was no excuse, he should have been there.

Amateur move. And that's been canc's biggest weakness

Yes he f###ed up big time yesterday, but Canc's tactics are rarely bad.

For example, 4.14 here in 2014 RVV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_BoCBLnXlg

If Canc had closed this gap down himself, you reckon he would have had enough to win the sprint? He did well to force Vanmarcke to chase it down after initially refusing to come through.

Similarly would you say Boonen is poor strategically? Probably not, but he let Canc go in 2010 PR in a similar way to the way Canc let Sagan go yesterday. Mistakes happen

 

[trucido]

Re: Re:

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

Totally agree, but it is likely to have been a different scenario if Fabian had not missed the move (kudos to Sagan for jumping with Kwiat). The outcome would probably be Peter and Fabian coming to the finish line together and Peter winning.

For what it's worth here are some self-clocked times up Paterberg the last few years:

Cancellara - 2013 Paterberg: 1min 10sec
Sagan - 2013 Paterberg: 1min 15 sec
Cancellara - 2014 Paterberg: (with Vanmarcke): 1min 16 sec
Cancellara - 2016 Paterberg: 1min 14 sec
Sagan - 2016 Paterberg: 1min 16 sec

Interesting that Sagan was actually faster up Paterberg in 2013 than this year, which is probabl a consequence of Fabian's furious pace at the bottom from the climb.

Not sure this comparison is of much value as every race is different (route etc). For instance many of the riders said this (2016) was the hardest RVV they've ever raced, so that has a part to play.

 

[pedromiguelmartins]

Re:

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

Then you didn't saw the race properly. Sagan will drop Cancellara on sunday.

 

[Miburo]

Boonen didn't let canc go in 2010 in the same manner as Canc did today. 2 completely different situations and the fault is way bigger in one than in the other.

I don't agree with him being smart in RVV 2014. Any person with half a brain would never close that gap since canc will always close that gap, always. Canc counted on vanmarcke being an idiot, i guess you can give him credit for that but i think it was a bad move from him regardless.

It's not because the move worked out that it can't be stupid.

 

[infeXio]

Re: Re:

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

Then you didn't saw the race properly. Sagan will drop Cancellara on sunday.

I very much doubt that Sagan - as strong as he is - is going to drop Cancellara on parcours as flat as in Paris-Roubaix.
Beat him? Possibly. But downright drop him, naaaaaah

 

[pedromiguelmartins]

Re: Re:

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

Then you didn't saw the race properly. Sagan will drop Cancellara on sunday.

I very much doubt that Sagan - as strong as he is - is going to drop Cancellara on parcours as flat as in Paris-Roubaix.

He just ended putting time on him on a flat part of a monument after both going for it 100%.

 

[infeXio]

Re: Re:

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

Then you didn't saw the race properly. Sagan will drop Cancellara on sunday.

I very much doubt that Sagan - as strong as he is - is going to drop Cancellara on parcours as flat as in Paris-Roubaix.

He just ended putting time on him on a flat part of a monument after both going for it 100%.

That doesn't change my stance, though. In a race even more suited to Cancellara's rouleur strength's and prowess on the cobbles, I just deem it unlikely to happen. Should it happen, though, I'll be more than happy to acknowledge how wrong I was.

It's going to be a good showdown regardless!

 

[dacooley]

Re:

Boonen didn't let canc go in 2010 in the same manner as Canc did today. 2 completely different situations and the fault is way bigger in one than in the other.

I don't agree with him being smart in RVV 2014. Any person with half a brain would never close that gap since canc will always close that gap, always. Canc counted on vanmarcke being an idiot, i guess you can give him credit for that but i think it was a bad move from him regardless.

It's not because the move worked out that it can't be stupid.

with your ability to be critical, probably anyone but winner always f**ked up.

 

[pedromiguelmartins]

Re: Re:

the way i saw it, sagan was the best yesterday
but huge ride also by fabian, only sep can stop him in roubaix

Then you didn't saw the race properly. Sagan will drop Cancellara on sunday.

I very much doubt that Sagan - as strong as he is - is going to drop Cancellara on parcours as flat as in Paris-Roubaix.

He just ended putting time on him on a flat part of a monument after both going for it 100%.

That doesn't change my stance, though. In a race even more suited to Cancellara's rouleur strength's and prowess on the cobbles, I just deem it unlikely to happen. Should it happen, though, I'll be more than happy to acknowledge how wrong I was.

It's going to be a good showdown regardless!

Let's just solve this as any mature adults would. Silly insults or avatar bet.

 

[infeXio]

Silly insults? How about neither

 

[jsem94]

Re: Re:

I think Cance would have rode away from everyone on the Kwaremont had it been all together. He should never have let them go, and I think he won't repeat that mistake at PR. Barring any unfortunate events he should be favorite for PR.

That doesn't count for much. Sagan worked much more to stay away, worked more from further out, put time on Fabian on the Patenberg and the flat.

Fab would've been dropped like a stone. That was Sagan's RVV.

I wouldn't be so certain he would have easily dropped Fabian. Sagan just raced better, and deservedly won the race.