Re:
The full version is in the Hamilton link in the Cancellara link provided earlier...vedrafjord said:
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Re: Re:
It's like "You may think Froome dopes, but tell you what, Froome claims he's clean, so take that".
Jaksche said what he said about Cecchini in 2008, when he was still hopin to retunr to cycling. So add a grain of salt.
Hamilton, in fairness, said Cecchini advised his riders to keep their HCT high.
I think the closeness between Cecchini and (a) Fuentes and (b) Conconi is beyond reasonable doubt.
@PopeOfDope: good posts and some interesting points.
Do you have a link to Cecchini and those PED prescriptions?
It is.Benotti69 said:
It's like "You may think Froome dopes, but tell you what, Froome claims he's clean, so take that".
Jaksche said what he said about Cecchini in 2008, when he was still hopin to retunr to cycling. So add a grain of salt.
Hamilton, in fairness, said Cecchini advised his riders to keep their HCT high.
I think the closeness between Cecchini and (a) Fuentes and (b) Conconi is beyond reasonable doubt.
@PopeOfDope: good posts and some interesting points.
Do you have a link to Cecchini and those PED prescriptions?
Re: Re:
You lecture people, then you get owned, and then you start throwing strawmen around.
There's that word "proof" again, out of thin air. It's a nice routine you have going there.fmk_RoI said:
You lecture people, then you get owned, and then you start throwing strawmen around.
Re: Re:
Cecchini worked on Aristoea for 1 year with Ferrari yet claims he doesn't know him and met him once.
Take what those in the sport say about their doping involvement with a grain of salt.
sniper said:
Cecchini worked on Aristoea for 1 year with Ferrari yet claims he doesn't know him and met him once.
Take what those in the sport say about their doping involvement with a grain of salt.
Re: Re:
Nope they are liars, end of.
But what we do know about the sport is that clean riders were rare and doctors were hired to dope.
fmk_RoI said:
Nope they are liars, end of.
But what we do know about the sport is that clean riders were rare and doctors were hired to dope.
@sniper It's in here 98 investigation of the Italian police into a pharmacy that gave out drugs to both Ferrari and Cecchini. http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1998/08/13/il-doping-in-farmacia-trema-anche-la.html
@fmk-Rol You can use any translating tool at your disposal...You're still avoid the facts and are now out of excuses not to reply to the prescription question...Like I said best for you to end this here before you look like an even bigger fool. Go to the BikeRadar forum it will be easier there for you to converse with others...
@fmk-Rol You can use any translating tool at your disposal...You're still avoid the facts and are now out of excuses not to reply to the prescription question...Like I said best for you to end this here before you look like an even bigger fool. Go to the BikeRadar forum it will be easier there for you to converse with others...
Re:
Again, I will ask you: where's your defence of your claim - one of the pillar's of your guilt by association case - that Cecchini is a well known associate of Conconi? Offer that and I'll happily deal with your prescription point. You can either prove the truth of your claim or you can't, which is it?ThePopeOfDope said:
Re:
From that link:
Italian pro-cycling doctor found with hands in cookie jar.
Shocker.
Cheers, PoD, good find.ThePopeOfDope said:
From that link:
Italian pro-cycling doctor found with hands in cookie jar.
Shocker.
Are you unable to read the article? The police found Cecchini to be a collaborator/assistant of Prof.Conconi. How many times do you expect me to repeat myself before you understand it?
Re:
If the article were in English you might have a point - is it in English? As for what the police allegedly found - when it went to trial, what was the outcome? Early reports of cases are frequently wrong.ThePopeOfDope said:
All of this to avoid having to admit you're wrong. You'd rather look like an idiot than being wrong... I'm honestly curious to know how old you are?
The funniest thing is that he's defending someone who "coached" Bjarne Riis while he was on 2 maybe even 3 doses of epo a day and used 3 blood bags for 96 TDF...HCT of 60% was probably higher... Who do you think helped him with his transfusions?
@sniper haha that second picture is great, I thought the Dr had his tongue out.I'm going to save it. Do you know if it's from 95 or 96?
Re:
Here's another from the same day. It seems he was comfortable with needles.
edit: 96 (see valvepiti's post below)ThePopeOfDope said:
Here's another from the same day. It seems he was comfortable with needles.
Bjarne Riis didn't even ride for Telekom in 95, so its 96 or 97. Actually, its likely to be 97 since he rode the Tour 1996 in the danish NC jersey... well, it can be either year as he won the NCs in 95 and 96, my guess is 1996 then.
@Valv.Piti You're right he was still in Gewiss in 95, the national jersey got me confused. Thank you 
@sniper That's an even better picture and you can see his power meter... (Marginal Gains back in 96 thank you.
@sniper That's an even better picture and you can see his power meter... (Marginal Gains back in 96
thank you.
Re Cecchini, Conconi and the prescriptions
AFAIK, the only real link between Cecco and Conconi is that he was initially a part of the Ferrara investigation, that when the authorities hit the pharmacy in Bologna they found there prescriptions issued by Cecchini. The dates on the prescriptions, I don't know. Those who know the matter better, maybe you can provide them. Whatever the dates (pre or post 1996), the authorities dropped Cecchini from the case (he says they never even questioned him about it). How that can possibly make Cecchini a well known associate of Conconi I don't know. Me, call me picky, but I'd expect a little bit more evidence for him to be a well known associate.
(Also, Cecchini in at least one interview I've seen says he sued journalists over this - now lots of people claim they'll initiate cases, I know, it's bollox. But Cecchini also claims that he won his cases and received compensation. If someone wants to ferret out reports about these lawsuits and the reality of their outcomes, go for it. This of course does not prove he was innocent, I don't claim it does. But it does raise questions about the reports themselves. Which is why what's said in a court case is more important than what is alleged in a news story before it gets to court.)
The issue here isn't whether Cecco was a dirty doctor or not - I think we're all agreed on the reality of that. The issue here is whether he was as dirty as we thought. We have claims from Riis, from Dekker, from Jaksche, from Millar, from Hamilton, from Cancellara all suggesting at the very least that - by the time they dealt with him - Cecco had got the hang of compartmentalisation, certainly where they were concerned. (Hamilton's version of reality is of particular relevance there.) Rather than simply dismiss those claims out of hand as being the lies of lying liars, I think it's worth entertaining them and seeing where they lead us, examine what they tell us about what we think we know. But then that's me, I don't need the world to be black and white, good guys and bad guys (or, round here, bad guys and more bad guys).
WRT the piccies above, and particularly the syringe. Yes, I think drawing blood is proof of doping, of course it is. It's all the proof we need and more besides. If you take it out, of course you put it back in. Everyone's seen Hancock.
AFAIK, the only real link between Cecco and Conconi is that he was initially a part of the Ferrara investigation, that when the authorities hit the pharmacy in Bologna they found there prescriptions issued by Cecchini. The dates on the prescriptions, I don't know. Those who know the matter better, maybe you can provide them. Whatever the dates (pre or post 1996), the authorities dropped Cecchini from the case (he says they never even questioned him about it). How that can possibly make Cecchini a well known associate of Conconi I don't know. Me, call me picky, but I'd expect a little bit more evidence for him to be a well known associate.
(Also, Cecchini in at least one interview I've seen says he sued journalists over this - now lots of people claim they'll initiate cases, I know, it's bollox. But Cecchini also claims that he won his cases and received compensation. If someone wants to ferret out reports about these lawsuits and the reality of their outcomes, go for it. This of course does not prove he was innocent, I don't claim it does. But it does raise questions about the reports themselves. Which is why what's said in a court case is more important than what is alleged in a news story before it gets to court.)
The issue here isn't whether Cecco was a dirty doctor or not - I think we're all agreed on the reality of that. The issue here is whether he was as dirty as we thought. We have claims from Riis, from Dekker, from Jaksche, from Millar, from Hamilton, from Cancellara all suggesting at the very least that - by the time they dealt with him - Cecco had got the hang of compartmentalisation, certainly where they were concerned. (Hamilton's version of reality is of particular relevance there.) Rather than simply dismiss those claims out of hand as being the lies of lying liars, I think it's worth entertaining them and seeing where they lead us, examine what they tell us about what we think we know. But then that's me, I don't need the world to be black and white, good guys and bad guys (or, round here, bad guys and more bad guys).
WRT the piccies above, and particularly the syringe. Yes, I think drawing blood is proof of doping, of course it is. It's all the proof we need and more besides. If you take it out, of course you put it back in. Everyone's seen Hancock.
Re:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2045417#p2045417
I will not delete the original post this time, but next time it will be unless it's translated.
Cheers
This is exactly why we have this rule pinned to the top of every subforum. The burden lies on you, the poster to provide an english translation of any link or post.ThePopeOfDope said:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2045417#p2045417
I will not delete the original post this time, but next time it will be unless it's translated.
Cheers
@Irondan Thanks for the info will make the effort next time.
@fmk_RoI The fact you doubt the police linking Cecchini to Conconi is laughable. They are the ones fighting the war on doping. The reason why Conconi was acquitted was because the bureaucracy allowed it to happen. The police did all the work for nothing to happen...
Dr.Ferrari also won many lawsuit does that acquit him of being a doping Dr? I'm guessing your reply is of course no he worked with Armstrong... Well the same goes for Cecchini who worked with Mr.60%...
Here is an extract of how Cecchini got into cycling :
«Ho scoperto la bici a 40 anni e l’ho fatto perché mi ci hanno costretto problemi di salute, come sovrappeso e pressione alta. Ho iniziato per divertimento, poi mi sono appassionato e sono arrivato addirittura a gareggiare, come faccio ancora, tra i cicloamatori. Mi interesso comunque di altri sport e prima praticavo l’automobilismo. Ho poi il brevetto di pilota d’aereo, altro sport bellissimo. E, per finire, ho praticato anche calcio e tennis».
I discovered the bike at 40 and I did it for my health because I was overweight and had high blood pressure. It started as an hobby,I then became very passionate and started racing like I still do to this day. I'm also interested in other sports and prior to cycling I raced in motorsports. I also have a pilots license, another beautiful thing. I also played football and tennis.
He got into cycling at 40 and won the cronocoppie di Aglianna with Bartoli averaging 50km/hr.... Now I don't think I need to tell you how ridiculous that performance is for someone who started exercising in his 40s...
I also find it very amusing you decide to use Hamilton but not Manzano... Why not? Does it bother you that he says Cecchini sent his clients to Fuentes? Does it not make sense for a Dr. under scrutiny to collaborate with someone who has more freedom to operate? Similarly as to how Ferrari would fly to Switzerland or Tenerife to work with his athletes.
Doping only amounts for the last few % the other 90+% come from training, diet..etc Dr.Ferrari while preparing Rominger's hour record spent weeks working with experts and Rominger to develop the most aero position possible... so of course Dr.'s don't spend every single minute of their day talking about doping because doping without training is as useless as you trying to prove that Cecchini is just a very unlucky guy...
Now since you think Cecchini is the cleanest of Dr.'s who most likely never doped athletes...etc(I say this because thinking anyone connected with Fuentes is not as dirty as the rest is just being very gullible) you should sign up for the Maratona delle Dolomiti...The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...
@fmk_RoI The fact you doubt the police linking Cecchini to Conconi is laughable. They are the ones fighting the war on doping. The reason why Conconi was acquitted was because the bureaucracy allowed it to happen. The police did all the work for nothing to happen...
Dr.Ferrari also won many lawsuit does that acquit him of being a doping Dr? I'm guessing your reply is of course no he worked with Armstrong... Well the same goes for Cecchini who worked with Mr.60%...
Here is an extract of how Cecchini got into cycling :
«Ho scoperto la bici a 40 anni e l’ho fatto perché mi ci hanno costretto problemi di salute, come sovrappeso e pressione alta. Ho iniziato per divertimento, poi mi sono appassionato e sono arrivato addirittura a gareggiare, come faccio ancora, tra i cicloamatori. Mi interesso comunque di altri sport e prima praticavo l’automobilismo. Ho poi il brevetto di pilota d’aereo, altro sport bellissimo. E, per finire, ho praticato anche calcio e tennis».
I discovered the bike at 40 and I did it for my health because I was overweight and had high blood pressure. It started as an hobby,I then became very passionate and started racing like I still do to this day. I'm also interested in other sports and prior to cycling I raced in motorsports. I also have a pilots license, another beautiful thing. I also played football and tennis.
He got into cycling at 40 and won the cronocoppie di Aglianna with Bartoli averaging 50km/hr.... Now I don't think I need to tell you how ridiculous that performance is for someone who started exercising in his 40s...
I also find it very amusing you decide to use Hamilton but not Manzano... Why not? Does it bother you that he says Cecchini sent his clients to Fuentes? Does it not make sense for a Dr. under scrutiny to collaborate with someone who has more freedom to operate? Similarly as to how Ferrari would fly to Switzerland or Tenerife to work with his athletes.
Doping only amounts for the last few % the other 90+% come from training, diet..etc Dr.Ferrari while preparing Rominger's hour record spent weeks working with experts and Rominger to develop the most aero position possible... so of course Dr.'s don't spend every single minute of their day talking about doping because doping without training is as useless as you trying to prove that Cecchini is just a very unlucky guy...
Now since you think Cecchini is the cleanest of Dr.'s who most likely never doped athletes...etc(I say this because thinking anyone connected with Fuentes is not as dirty as the rest is just being very gullible) you should sign up for the Maratona delle Dolomiti...The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...
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