Cancellara

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

Yeah, the only thing debunked by that piece was the author's credibility.

pretty much.

btw, the author of that piece is a certain Jered Gruber. Is he the guy who invented the Gruber Assist system?

No way! Really? Good catch. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

Outside of the surname Jared Gruber has nothing to do with the Gruber Assist but is an ex pro who has a photography website called GruberImages and obviously does some writing on cycling.

 

[sniper]

^ that seems correct.

I can't find who the Gruber Assist system was named after.

By March 2006 the product, the “Gruber Assist”, was ready to bring onto the market. The company “Gruber Antrieb GmbH & Co KG” was started up by Karl [Schweitzer], with his daughter Monika Schweitzer taking the position of Manager.

http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/unternehmen/geschichte.html

by the way, from the same website, I thought this is pretty interesting in light of Roux' comments that he heard a motor sound coming from Cance's bike at P-R 2010:

A sensational development came in the spring of 2011. The sound of the Gruber Assist 3.15 was conquered - it was now quieter. Demand doubled. Manager Monika Schweitzer said: “No-one doubted the innovation and the uniqueness of our power unit, though we probably did lose some customers due to the noise.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

Yeah, the only thing debunked by that piece was the author's credibility.

pretty much.

btw, the author of that piece is a certain Jered Gruber. Is he the guy who invented the Gruber Assist system?

No way! Really? Good catch. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

Outside of the surname Jared Gruber has nothing to do with the Gruber Assist but is an ex pro who has a photography website called GruberImages and obviously does some writing on cycling.

Oh, well, too bad. It was almost too good to be true. Kind of like Cancellara's RVV ride in 2010.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Re:

No way! Really? Good catch. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

this is from 2009:

gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike
no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike-no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic.html

Another great find. And by penning a piece that purports to "debunk" the possibility of Cance using a motor - by trying, in other words, to provide Cancellara with yet another kind of "Gruber assist" - Gruber has put himself right in the middle of it. Which would tend to indicate that he was already in the middle of it. In the seat tube, so to speak.

hehe, well said.

here a reminder of how 'difficult' it is to install the Gruber Assist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmPUze3WBTw
you gotta suspend rational thought to think this hasn't been (widely) used yet.
btw, letting youtube play, it takes you to another bit of footage of another pedal assist system.
It takes 5 minutes to install.

Did you watch the pedal assist system video, it may have taken 5 minutes to install (not sure if this was actually the case) but it wouldn't work, the chainset wasn't compatible! The Gruber model is now called Vivaz Assist, it might be easy to install if you have the correct tool and use a Shimano Hollowtech II crankset, and your frame has seat-tube with a continuous diameter of 31.6mm, otherwise you're going to have to do some machining and carbon work. I would guess there are more bikes out there with 27.2 diameter seat-tubes, so perhaps Vivax went for 31.6 as it was going to be difficult making the motor thinner.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re:

there's no proof, but there's enough evidence there for me to say i'm convinced he used a motor.
I couldn't point you to one single post, it's a host of independent and overlapping pieces of evidence.
I could try and make a brief summary though (in random order):

1. the timing of Cancellara's most suspicious jumps (2010) neatly overlaps with alleged introduction/availability of gruber/silent pro system among pro's (see Cassani vid and discussion in old 'doped bike' thread);
2. the whole bike-change fiasco (see Durand vid and discussion in doped bike thread);
3. the style of Cance's jumps (especially his RvV Muur jump); and note: it is the combination of [accelleration+gearchoice+cadence+lackofupperbodymovement] that looks unreal. (see discussion in doped bike thread)
4. the rumors in the peloton (Roux told the press he'd heard motor-like sounds coming from Cance's bike; other riders+coaches are on record expressing suspicions wrt Cancellara) (see all examples and quotes neatly summarized in doped bike thread);
5. The clicking incidents pointed out by several independent observers (see Cance vid that went viral on youtube, and see discussion in doped bike thread)

#2, 3 and 4 are probably the most compelling.
#1 is open to debate:
- some would place the intro/use of the system among pro's earlier;
- Cance arguably had suspicious performances prior to 2010
But regardless, point is we know the system was available in 2010.
#5 is open to debate as well. I myself am not expert enough to judge whether the clicking couldn't be a normal gear change. But it looks suspicious enough, and other observers have claimed it couldn't be gear-change related.

I'll do some more reading on the bike changes before responding on that point. I don't find Cancellara's Mur `jump' that surprising, firstly it's a combination of C accelerating and Boonen slowing, the latter is really labouring that gear. At one stage in the footage Boonen lurched across the road almost coming off at the steep verge. Cancellara had sat on Boonen's wheel for a while earlier on the climb and likely took a good look at him and realised he was cooked. And there is upper body movement on Cancellara, just that the final shots on the climb are from the front and it's not so apparent. I continue to think it's old school methods being used. By the way if you really want to see a dramatic attack look up Indurain on the Charlerois-Liege stage of the 1995 Tour de France, now that's an attack! At to what Roux said didn't he go on to raise suspicions of doping rather than a motor? I've found reference to an anonymous pro making a comment about hearing a strange noise, I'll do some more searching.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

... At to what Roux said didn't he go on to raise suspicions of doping rather than a motor? I've found reference to an anonymous pro making a comment about hearing a strange noise, I'll do some more searching.

There was a bit of confusion as to who said what.
But in one interview Roux hinted explicitly at Cance having a motor, and someone else (an Italian blogger) later said Roux was also the 'anonymous French rider' who had spread the rumor of a motor sound coming from Cance's bike.
Two posts detailing the issue:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7745&p=1712663&hilit=roux#p1712663
viewtopic.php?p=1712683#p1712683

 

[TMP402]

Thomas Dekker has quashed all rumours of the identity linked to the Operacion Puerto codename 'Clasicomano Luigi', putting his hand up and admitting it was him all along. After Dekker's former teammate Phil Gaimon posted about the link on Twitter, Dekker himself confirmed it to the press.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dekker-i-am-clasicomano-luigi-in-fuentes-ledger/

 

[sniper]

Fuentes list featured a rider labled Classicomano and anotehr rider labled Classicomano Luigi.
Cance could still be Classicomano.

It would be good to hear from Hamilton.
Hamilton's Luigi anecdote from a few years back clearly seemed to earmark Cance as being Luigi.

Or maybe Cance is paying Dekker to say this. Unlikely but who knows. It's procycling.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Fuentes list featured a rider labled Classicomano and anotehr rider labled Classicomano Luigi.
Cance could still be Classicomano.

It would be good to hear from Hamilton.
Hamilton's Luigi anecdote from a few years back clearly seemed to earmark Cance as being Luigi.

Or maybe Cance is paying Dekker to say this. Unlikely but who knows. It's procycling.

My first thought...

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Hey maybe the doctor had them locked together with the HAIR???? TWO Classicomano........whoooooooew do you think you arrrrrre.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Hey maybe the doctor had them locked together with the HAIR???? TWO Classicomano........whoooooooew do you think you arrrrrre.

:lol: Uhm, okay...

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

Fuentes list featured a rider labled Classicomano and anotehr rider labled Classicomano Luigi.
Cance could still be Classicomano.

It would be good to hear from Hamilton.
Hamilton's Luigi anecdote from a few years back clearly seemed to earmark Cance as being Luigi.

Or maybe Cance is paying Dekker to say this. Unlikely but who knows. It's procycling.

My first thought...

This made me laugh. 6,000 people bought a ticket for his farewell this weekend. In Belgium. He's Swiss. That's absolutely unheard of. The guy is immensely popular. Why would he *need* to pay Dekker to say this? Nobody cares so there's nothing to gain, only lose.

 

[doperhopper]

let's not forget
---
when the Swiss rider won the Olympic Games time trial, Lance Armstrong tweeted, "Luigi!".
---
so childish, no balls - and now it's clear that The Sociopath got even this wrong!

 

[ClassicomanoLuigi]

Re:

Fuentes list featured a rider labled Classicomano and anotehr rider labled Classicomano Luigi. Cance could still be Classicomano. It would be good to hear from Hamilton. Hamilton's Luigi anecdote from a few years back clearly seemed to earmark Cance as being Luigi. Or maybe Cance is paying Dekker to say this. Unlikely but who knows. It's procycling.

If Dekker is telling the truth, then my prediction was correct. However I also believe that 'clasicómano' and 'Clasicómano Luigi' are two different cyclists. Leaving Cancellara as the most logical possibility for the other.

Hamilton himself would not necessarily know the difference. Also 'a luigi' could be a perjorative term for any client of Cecchini. But they certainly came up with that nickname from the Puerto bust, not beforehand

 

[GJB123]

Classicomano could also be Flecha, at that time still a team mate of Dekker. Thijs Zonneveld, the author of the Dekker book, alluded to that some months ago (on twitter I believe).

 

[vedrafjord]

I think people are too focused on that one codename - if we step back a bit:

• Cancellara joined CSC in the winter of 05/06 from Fassa Bortolo
• The Puerto raid was on the 23rd of May 2006
• Riis has been known to introduce riders to Fuentes
• Luigi Cecchini worked with both Fassa Bortolo and CSC
• Cancellara was a client of Cecchini (not sure from what date, anybody have an idea?)
• Cecchini has been known to introduce riders to Fuentes

I would be very surprised if one of the bags didn't belong to Cancellara.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I think people are too focused on that one codename - if we step back a bit:

• Cancellara joined CSC in the winter of 05/06 from Fassa Bortolo
• The Puerto raid was on the 23rd of May 2006
• Riis has been known to introduce riders to Fuentes
• Luigi Cecchini worked with both Fassa Bortolo and CSC
• Cancellara was a client of Cecchini (not sure from what date, anybody have an idea?)
• Cecchini has been known to introduce riders to Fuentes

I would be very surprised if one of the bags didn't belong to Cancellara.

Agreed.
To the bold: he met Cecchini in 2003 (and I assume started working with him in the same year).
http://www.nzz.ch/olympia2016/fabian-cancellara-im-guten-im-schlechten-ld.110522

 

[Choocher]

Re:

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

I agree, Sniper. I was at the 2010 RVV and watched the race from the start in Bruges, the Koppenberg, and the Muur. Cancellara looked normal on the Koppenberg: strong, smooth, and in control of his effort. He looked the same when he and Boonen came through where I was on the Muur, about 200 meters below the the top. When I watched the tv coverage of his attack at the top of the Muur, I couldn't even believe it was the same rider.

I'm a fan of Cancellara and Boonen. I was happy to see them in a position to go head to head on the Muur. But that attack was just silly. I don't have any science or data to back up my belief about Cancellara using a motor that day, and I would much rather prefer that he didn't, but based on what I saw, I believe that he did.

Wish I would have been closer to the top so I could have been there in person for the actual attack. I doubt anyone could have heard a motor at that point, though. The crowd was incredibly loud.

 

[kingjr]

I don't think he rode that bit faster than Bartoli in 1996 though. It was of course a different race

 

[42x16ss]

Nice pic! Boonen looks like the god of cycling in that photo

 

[Choocher]

Re:

Nice pic! Boonen looks like the god of cycling in that photo

Thanks, and I agree. He looks great in that shot. To me, he looked to be on equal footing with Cancellara.

This was my favorite pic of the day, from 3/4 of the way up the Koppenberg. Just before the riders crested the first steep ramp. What a day!

 

[fmk_RoI]

Fabian Cancellara in his recently translated authorised biography, talking about Luigi Cecchini:

"'He came straight to the point with me,' says Cancellara. '"If you've come here to find drugs to make you go faster, there's the door." He was quite clear. He never mentioned doping to me. Doping was never an issue for me.'"

And, from the same, on why he didn't have to dope:

"I was indeed around at a time when doping was unfortunately a very topical issue, but you have to make a distinction between those who specialised in the Grand Tours and those riders who focused on the classics, like me. For classics riders, doping wasn't something that could make them better."

Deets

Of the responses this drew on Twitter this is by far my fave.

 

[sniper]

Thanks for those snippets.
Having followed Cancellara on twitter, I'm going to nominate him for the most narcissist (ex)pro around.
Really pass-the-bucket level. Is that tangible in his biography, too?

Not to take anything away from your review, fmk, which is probably solid and sound as ever.
But with the recent release of juicy biographies such as Dekker's, this one from Cancellara sounds like a total waste of time and space, as well as an insult to the brain.

I'd rather donate to Donald Trump's re-election campaign than buy this book.

 

[spalco]

Wow, that's a really stupid thing to say.

I wonder who large (small) the proportion of fans is who are still capable of swallowing stuff like this...

 

[sniper]

Re:

Wow, that's a really stupid thing to say.

I wonder who large (small) the proportion of fans is who are still capable of swallowing stuff like this...

I wonder what David Walsh thinks of the claim that doping only helps in GTs.
Didn't Walsh say it was much easier to dope in the classics?