Cancellara

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
So stating that rim motors are highly impractical from a physics point of view and highly unlikely because of the vost involved doesn't fit the narrative of some people here. Never mind that you wouldn't even have to go all out on something as elaborate as inventing and producing an undetectable rim motor because crank motors will go unnoticed anyway (either by choice or lack of testing). It's Occam's razor all over again really.

funny, some pages back you were adamant that detectability was one reason why rim drive systems aren't in use.

to be sure, i get your point and it's a very valid point for the lower ranks, amateurs, continentals.
But not necessarily for the high-end pro's.
Cancellara raised a shitload of eyebrows. Both within and outside of the peloton people were talking. Riders had literally heard his motor and talked about it to the press.
Cassani spelled the whole system out for you in 2010, Varjas went on the record. UCI started some testing, etc. While they were never out to catch anyone, it does add to reasons why high-end cycling tech teams may have started looking for alternative technology. So ask yourself: is it really farfetched to assume that at least from 2010 onwards, high end cycling tech teams have started looking for alternative options to Cancellara's blatantly obvious "silent pro" model? Of course not.

So sure, we don't know if rim drives are in use, they might not be. Froome Ventoux 2013, for instance, looked like a normal motor. Contador, if he was using anything, it would have been a normal motor.
But the fact that you and jyl and hawkwood can't get your heads around the rim drive technology, doesn't mean such technology isn't being experimented with at the high end. Thats the only narrative, sorry to disappoint you.

Please point us towards the rim drive technology that will work and won't be easy to detect. The design posted in Gazzetta won't work, the idea that was posted on here with the 2kg weight, is interesting, but won't work because of a small detail called the tyre valve. Only a short time ago the narrative was about hub drives, now it's become rim drives, so next I guess we'll see spoke drives.... As for Cancellara's `blatantly obvious "silent pro" model' please can you set out the evidence for what this was.

 

[manafana]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

man the clinic is popular do people in here watch cycling at all its actually quiet goood.

The mechanical stuff is obviously harder do than doping as you need far more people in on it which nowadays isn't as easy as it was in the 90s, but looking back Cancellara looks a little more likely to have had a motor

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
Please point us towards the rim drive technology that will work and won't be easy to detect. The design posted in Gazzetta won't work, the idea that was posted on here with the 2kg weight, is interesting, but won't work because of a small detail called the tyre valve. Only a short time ago the narrative was about hub drives, now it's become rim drives, so next I guess we'll see spoke drives.... As for Cancellara's `blatantly obvious "silent pro" model' please can you set out the evidence for what this was.

Please point us towards the rim drive technology

way to miss the point. I couldn't even point you towards flash light technology. Cue Hawkwood claiming "flash lights do not exist".

Only a short time ago the narrative was about hub drives

'the narrative' is still about hub drives.

As for Cancellara's `blatantly obvious "silent pro" model' please can you set out the evidence for what this was

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
Please point us towards the rim drive technology that will work and won't be easy to detect. The design posted in Gazzetta won't work, the idea that was posted on here with the 2kg weight, is interesting, but won't work because of a small detail called the tyre valve. Only a short time ago the narrative was about hub drives, now it's become rim drives, so next I guess we'll see spoke drives.... As for Cancellara's `blatantly obvious "silent pro" model' please can you set out the evidence for what this was.

Please point us towards the rim drive technology

way to miss the point. I couldn't even point you towards flash light technology. Cue Hawkwood claiming "flash lights do not exist".

Only a short time ago the narrative was about hub drives

'the narrative' is still about hub drives.

As for Cancellara's `blatantly obvious "silent pro" model' please can you set out the evidence for what this was

So you've avoided answering all my questions and points, but you've posted a picture because you think it adds something to your argument. You waxed lyrical about a possible rim drive idea posted here, but the fact that an obvious thing such as a valve stem would render it useless passed you by! I'm pleased hub drives are still in the narrative, so let's see a design that might work and won't stand out like a sore thumb.

 

[sniper]

fair enough, i got a bit cynical at the cancellara question, apologies.
the thing is there are two brilliant threads about cancellara and his alleged motor, one of those threads going back to 2010(!). I've linked to that thread several times in the past few weeks, but i'll link it again: viewtopic.php?t=7745
it really is worth a read from start to finish.

entering the keywords 'cancellara' and 'motor' in google or youtube will also tell you the story about how obvious cancellara was. But still, that one thread is the best place on the web to look for info.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re:

fair enough, i got a bit cynical at the cancellara question, apologies.
the thing is there are two brilliant threads about cancellara and his alleged motor, one of those threads going back to 2010(!). I've linked to that thread several times in the past few weeks, but i'll link it again: viewtopic.php?t=7745
it really is worth a read from start to finish.

entering the keywords 'cancellara' and 'motor' in google or youtube will also tell you the story about how obvious cancellara was. But still, that one thread is the best place on the web to look for info.

We've had this discussion before, and I know about the theories of Cancellara using a motor. Didn't someone post that Cancellara's average speed in the `motorised' Ronde was actually slower than Merckx's back in the 70s? The list of major improvements in cycling equipment from Merckx's time to Cancellara's is a long one, just one example I've seen a weight of 10.5 kgs for one of his Tour bikes!

 

[GJB123]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
So stating that rim motors are highly impractical from a physics point of view and highly unlikely because of the vost involved doesn't fit the narrative of some people here. Never mind that you wouldn't even have to go all out on something as elaborate as inventing and producing an undetectable rim motor because crank motors will go unnoticed anyway (either by choice or lack of testing). It's Occam's razor all over again really.

funny, some pages back you were adamant that detectability was one reason why rim drive systems aren't in use.

to be sure, i get your point and it's a very valid point for the lower ranks, amateurs, continentals.
But not necessarily for the high-end pro's.
Cancellara raised a shitload of eyebrows. Both within and outside of the peloton people were talking. Riders had literally heard his motor and talked about it to the press.
Cassani spelled the whole system out for you in 2010, Varjas went on the record. UCI started some testing, etc. While they were never out to catch anyone, it does add to reasons why high-end cycling tech teams may have started looking for alternative technology. So ask yourself: is it really farfetched to assume that at least from 2010 onwards, high end cycling tech teams have started looking for alternative options to Cancellara's blatantly obvious "silent pro" model? Of course not.

So sure, we don't know if rim drives are in use, they might not be. Froome Ventoux 2013, for instance, looked like a normal motor. Contador, if he was using anything, it would have been a normal motor.
But the fact that you and jyl and hawkwood can't get your heads around the rim drive technology, doesn't mean such technology isn't being experimented with at the high end. Thats the only narrative, sorry to disappoint you.

That is pretty rich coming from you. You have shown that you have no grasp whatsoever of the physics. The fact that YOU don't understand the calculations jyl provided doesn't mean he can't get his head around the technique. You have got things backwards (yet again).

 

[sniper]

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

I think someone used a motor in bike in competition in the past, but not Cancellara and maybe just in the begining of a stage.

And it is good to read that for me.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

man the clinic is popular do people in here watch cycling at all its actually quiet goood.

The mechanical stuff is obviously harder do than doping as you need far more people in on it which nowadays isn't as easy as it was in the 90s, but looking back Cancellara looks a little more likely to have had a motor

If Cancellara did have a motor, and I am suspicious but will never be convinced, it is one of the most brilliant doping enterprises ever. Armstrong would even respect it.

Like the Usual Suspects quote, the biggest trick the devil pulled was convincing everyone he never existed. damn straight. but this time, we p'raps suspected he existed after the fact. Genius spartacus, just genius.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

man the clinic is popular do people in here watch cycling at all its actually quiet goood.

The mechanical stuff is obviously harder do than doping as you need far more people in on it which nowadays isn't as easy as it was in the 90s, but looking back Cancellara looks a little more likely to have had a motor

If Cancellara did have a motor, and I am suspicious but will never be convinced, it is one of the most brilliant doping enterprises ever.

I have always been fascinated with that attack by Spartacus in the Ronde, where he makes it look so easy. I distinctly remember watching that part of the race in real time and being stunned by it. If there ever was a "window" of time and place to pull off a motor assisted attack that hill was it.
Absolutely packed with screaming fans to cover up the noise and just steep enough where a motor assist could be crucial. It would be fun to obtain a HiDef (or even Blu-Ray if available) recording of that race and go through it with an eye towards trying to identify the bike(s) he rode in the race and looking for suspicious hand motions that might identify a motor being activated.

I have said it before in this forum: other more technically oriented competitions (Formula One, Americas Cup) have had mechanical cheating violations that basically were completely unexpected and often undiscovered by the regulators. Obviously these events have much bigger budgets and bigger incentives to cheat. Bicycle racing has only done very spotty investigations as far as uncovering mechanical cheats. I believe that various types of this cheating have been going on for a while now. I don't have the hard facts to back it up, it is just a subjective impression on my part.

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
I have always been fascinated with that attack by Spartacus in the Ronde, where he makes it look so easy. I distinctly remember watching that part of the race in real time and being stunned by it. If there ever was a "window" of time and place to pull off a motor assisted attack that hill was it.
Absolutely packed with screaming fans to cover up the noise and just steep enough where a motor assist could be crucial. It would be fun to obtain a HiDef (or even Blu-Ray if available) recording of that race and go through it with an eye towards trying to identify the bike(s) he rode in the race and looking for suspicious hand motions that might identify a motor being activated.

All that has been done a long long time ago.
Here some reading for you:
viewtopic.php?t=7745
I guarantee that thread will not disappoint you.
Bump it if you feel like it.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
I have always been fascinated with that attack by Spartacus in the Ronde, where he makes it look so easy. I distinctly remember watching that part of the race in real time and being stunned by it. If there ever was a "window" of time and place to pull off a motor assisted attack that hill was it.
Absolutely packed with screaming fans to cover up the noise and just steep enough where a motor assist could be crucial. It would be fun to obtain a HiDef (or even Blu-Ray if available) recording of that race and go through it with an eye towards trying to identify the bike(s) he rode in the race and looking for suspicious hand motions that might identify a motor being activated.

All that has been done a long long time ago.
Here some reading for you:
viewtopic.php?t=7745
I guarantee that thread will not disappoint you.
Bump it if you feel like it.

There's 1109 posts in that thread, and I don't they add very much. The video that's cited in that thread likewise. Those who think Cancellara motordoped will continue to hold to this belief, those who think he's an animal who used more traditional methods will likewise stick to this view.

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
I have always been fascinated with that attack by Spartacus in the Ronde, where he makes it look so easy. I distinctly remember watching that part of the race in real time and being stunned by it. If there ever was a "window" of time and place to pull off a motor assisted attack that hill was it.
Absolutely packed with screaming fans to cover up the noise and just steep enough where a motor assist could be crucial. It would be fun to obtain a HiDef (or even Blu-Ray if available) recording of that race and go through it with an eye towards trying to identify the bike(s) he rode in the race and looking for suspicious hand motions that might identify a motor being activated.

All that has been done a long long time ago.
Here some reading for you:
viewtopic.php?t=7745
I guarantee that thread will not disappoint you.
Bump it if you feel like it.

There's 1109 posts in that thread, and I don't they add very much.

you read all of them?
Anyway, I was just saying that what arthur was proposing ("go through it with an eye towards trying to identify the bike(s) he rode in the race and looking for suspicious hand motions that might identify a motor being activated") has been done at length in that thread. And it has.

The video that's cited in that thread likewise.

There are dozens of videos cited in that thread. The one vid linked in the OP is just one of many where Cance's RvV and P-R are analyzed.

Those who think Cancellara motordoped will continue to hold to this belief, those who think he's an animal who used more traditional methods will likewise stick to this view.

I get your point, and it holds true for some posters. But fact is that, post-'Femke', a lot of people who were previously 'on the fence' wrt Cancellara (or even vocally opposed to the idea of him using a motor) now believe he did use a motor.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
I have always been fascinated with that attack by Spartacus in the Ronde, where he makes it look so easy. I distinctly remember watching that part of the race in real time and being stunned by it. If there ever was a "window" of time and place to pull off a motor assisted attack that hill was it.
Absolutely packed with screaming fans to cover up the noise and just steep enough where a motor assist could be crucial. It would be fun to obtain a HiDef (or even Blu-Ray if available) recording of that race and go through it with an eye towards trying to identify the bike(s) he rode in the race and looking for suspicious hand motions that might identify a motor being activated.

All that has been done a long long time ago.
Here some reading for you:
viewtopic.php?t=7745
I guarantee that thread will not disappoint you.
Bump it if you feel like it.

There's 1109 posts in that thread, and I don't they add very much.

you read all of them?
Anyway, I was just saying that what arthur was proposing ("go through it with an eye towards trying to identify the bike(s) he rode in the race and looking for suspicious hand motions that might identify a motor being activated") has been done at length in that thread. And it has.

The video that's cited in that thread likewise.

There are dozens of videos cited in that thread. The one vid linked in the OP is just one of many where Cance's RvV and P-R are analyzed.

Those who think Cancellara motordoped will continue to hold to this belief, those who think he's an animal who used more traditional methods will likewise stick to this view.

I get your point, and it holds true for some posters. But fact is that, post-'Femke', a lot of people who were previously 'on the fence' wrt Cancellara (or even vocally opposed to the idea of him using a motor) now believe he did use a motor.

I'm not going to sit down and read 1109 posts! I think we need a lot more information about the PR and Ronde incidents before we can make any judgement as to whether motors were involved or not. As you know I think what we see in those two races is `old school', and I have no problems with a big powerful rider attacking in the saddle. The Femke episode does of course throw up major concerns. Clearly the bottom-bracket motor is fact rather than fiction, but, as you know from my posts, I personally don't think the rim or hub drive technology is advanced enough yet to create relatively well hidden motors.

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
I'm not going to sit down and read 1109 posts!

of course you're not, I don't blame you. But that's why I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that those posts "don't add much".

I think we need a lot more information about the PR and Ronde incidents before we can make any judgement as to whether motors were involved or not.

well you clearly do. No need to use "we" here.

As you know I think what we see in those two races is `old school', and I have no problems with a big powerful rider attacking in the saddle.

it wasn't just about attacking in the saddle. You're oversimplifying.

The Femke episode does of course throw up major concerns. Clearly the bottom-bracket motor is fact rather than fiction, but, as you know from my posts, I personally don't think the rim or hub drive technology is advanced enough yet to create relatively well hidden motors.

it's understandable that you think that, as you're not reading/viewing the evidence collected in that wonderful thread.

 

[Jancouver]

Back to his TT winning days.

Seems like Spartacus is going full *** in his last season.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
I'm not going to sit down and read 1109 posts!

of course you're not, I don't blame you. But that's why I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that those posts "don't add much".

I think we need a lot more information about the PR and Ronde incidents before we can make any judgement as to whether motors were involved or not.

well you clearly do. No need to use "we" here.

As you know I think what we see in those two races is `old school', and I have no problems with a big powerful rider attacking in the saddle.

it wasn't just about attacking in the saddle. You're oversimplifying.

The Femke episode does of course throw up major concerns. Clearly the bottom-bracket motor is fact rather than fiction, but, as you know from my posts, I personally don't think the rim or hub drive technology is advanced enough yet to create relatively well hidden motors.

it's understandable that you think that, as you're not reading/viewing the evidence collected in that wonderful thread.

If you think you've got enough information from the videos of PR and Ronde to prove that Cancellara motordoped then please share it. For PR perhaps we could start with wind direction, Cancellara's speed, the speed of the group, who was and wasn't working, power files etc. As for the rim and hub drives please point me towards the evidence and I'll happily read it. I've looked through about 25% of that thread, haven't seen much so far, I'll look through the rest later. I think I probably read most of it when it was first posted, but can't be sure.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

Yeah, the only thing debunked by that piece was the author's credibility.

 

[sniper]

...
If you think you've got enough information from the videos of PR and Ronde to prove that Cancellara motordoped then please share it. For PR perhaps we could start with wind direction, Cancellara's speed, the speed of the group, who was and wasn't working, power files etc. As for the rim and hub drives please point me towards the evidence and I'll happily read it. I've looked through about 25% of that thread, haven't seen much so far, I'll look through the rest later. I think I probably read most of it when it was first posted, but can't be sure.

there's no proof, but there's enough evidence there for me to say i'm convinced he used a motor.
I couldn't point you to one single post, it's a host of independent and overlapping pieces of evidence.
I could try and make a brief summary though (in random order):

1. the timing of Cancellara's most suspicious jumps (2010) neatly overlaps with alleged introduction/availability of gruber/silent pro system among pro's (see Cassani vid and discussion in old 'doped bike' thread);
2. the whole bike-change fiasco (see Durand vid and discussion in doped bike thread);
3. the style of Cance's jumps (especially his RvV Muur jump); and note: it is the combination of [accelleration+gearchoice+cadence+lackofupperbodymovement] that looks unreal. (see discussion in doped bike thread)
4. the rumors in the peloton (Roux told the press he'd heard motor-like sounds coming from Cance's bike; other riders+coaches are on record expressing suspicions wrt Cancellara) (see all examples and quotes neatly summarized in doped bike thread);
5. The clicking incidents pointed out by several independent observers (see Cance vid that went viral on youtube, and see discussion in doped bike thread)

#2, 3 and 4 are probably the most compelling.
#1 is open to debate:
- some would place the intro/use of the system among pro's earlier;
- Cance arguably had suspicious performances prior to 2010
But regardless, point is we know the system was available in 2010.
#5 is open to debate as well. I myself am not expert enough to judge whether the clicking couldn't be a normal gear change. But it looks suspicious enough, and other observers have claimed it couldn't be gear-change related.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

Yeah, the only thing debunked by that piece was the author's credibility.

pretty much.

btw, the author of that piece is a certain Jered Gruber. Is he the guy who invented the Gruber Assist system?

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

this piece fails on so many levels.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

Yeah, the only thing debunked by that piece was the author's credibility.

pretty much.

btw, the author of that piece is a certain Jered Gruber. Is he the guy who invented the Gruber Assist system?

No way! Really? Good catch. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

No way! Really? Good catch. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

this is from 2009:

gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike
no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike-no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic.html

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

No way! Really? Good catch. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

this is from 2009:

gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike
no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike-no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic.html

Another great find. And by penning a piece that purports to "debunk" the possibility of Cance using a motor - by trying, in other words, to provide Cancellara with yet another kind of "Gruber assist" - Gruber has put himself right in the middle of it. Which would tend to indicate that he was already in the middle of it. In the seat tube, so to speak.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

No way! Really? Good catch. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

this is from 2009:

gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike
no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike-no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic.html

Another great find. And by penning a piece that purports to "debunk" the possibility of Cance using a motor - by trying, in other words, to provide Cancellara with yet another kind of "Gruber assist" - Gruber has put himself right in the middle of it. Which would tend to indicate that he was already in the middle of it. In the seat tube, so to speak.

hehe, well said.

here a reminder of how 'difficult' it is to install the Gruber Assist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmPUze3WBTw
you gotta suspend rational thought to think this hasn't been (widely) used yet.
btw, letting youtube play, it takes you to another bit of footage of another pedal assist system.
It takes 5 minutes to install.