Cancellara

[hmronnow]

I was just at the Iamspecialized website. I clicked on a video about Cancellara's Flanders bike, and the guy from Specialized ran through the totals and averages on Fabian's power meter. I thought a few of you might like a look.

http://iamspecialized.com/road/vide...llara-rode-to-victory-at-the-tour-of-flanders

Thanks.
So, he had an average power of 285W. Maximum 1450W. total energy 6459kJ
Average HR 143, max 190.
Everage speed 40, max 80.

However, it doesn't really say much, since majority of the 6h22 were spent drafting. I think any pro-rider (and fair number of hobbyists) can do 285W for 6 hours. The question is what was the average the first 5 hours, and what was the power output during his 1h solo. Is anyone disputing the 38kmh of Vlaeminck? In itself 38kmh is not alarming. So one would need data on wind speed and direciton to turn this into an unbelievable effort.

And, does anyone dispute that he was tired afterwards? How would you know? Arguments like 'he wasn't breathing heavily' are firstly inaccurate, secondly irrelevant.
1) He was riding with open mouth (more grimacing than he often does). How does anyone watching on TV know how much air was going in and out?
2) Around FTP, which by definition is what he should have been at for 1h,
the limiting factor is not air intake.

I am not defending this guy in particular. I am willing to buy the everybody dopes mantra. And of course it is possible that this guy has a better program. But, I do not agree that this race proves any of that.

There are numerous bike races, where 2-3 riders get away, the rest give up the chase, and end up minutes back, despite the fact that one of the 2-3 is doing the majority of work. The only difference here was that he got away alone, with no-one on the wheel.

Leukemans got dropped by Cancellara, had a flat tire. Pozzato kept yoyoing on and off the back. They still made it in only 3 minutes in arrieres - the chase was not riding fast!

 

[Big GMaC]

I Think that is the Data for the Ronde.

It didn't look like he had an SRM or Power tap on at P-R and he swapped bikes before that big solo

 

[Martin318is]

I Think that is the Data for the Ronde.

It didn't look like he had an SRM or Power tap on at P-R and he swapped bikes before that big solo

The link actually says it was from Flanders (it has been discussed a bit in the Flanders thread too)

 

[samb01]

Cancellara is not more or less loaded than the others. And cycling not more or less dirty than other sports.

As they're all full, on a relative basis, this should level the playfield.

So it is still courage, tactics, technique, talent, skill that makes the difference and above all the mental preparation and determination to win.

This is a convenient belief that allows one to 'enjoy the show' without any annoying cognitive dissonance.

Personally, I enjoy the game of 'spot the doper' too much to join up.

 

[Mario Cipollini]

Doping wasn't the first thing that came to my mind seeing this performance, yet would love to see the power output of FC form the last hour

1) Tactics: Just wondering if teams had radio communication going during the race... Whilst Boonen was surging at the front before he made his '30 second mistake', he was making things impossible for Devolder to get back on... didn't look so smart from where I was sitting.
2) Game theory: Not a good look for sponsors to have team leaders looking content to ride for second, very disappointing for spectators, felt the same way as I did watching Anderson Silva at UFC 112
3) Comparisons with Merck: The Cannibal was one of the few riders who had the 'cohonas' to try this type of performance - Cancellara is no Landis, he is the best in the world over an hour effort.
4) Fabian looked smashed at the end of the race, It looked like FC put himself throgh more pain in the last our than the 8 other guys combined
5) Flanders over Roubaix as a spectacle anyday

 

[Big GMaC]

The link actually says it was from Flanders (it has been discussed a bit in the Flanders thread too)

Yeah my error, was just kinda scanning.

His P-R bike did have and SRM (at leat the original one, don't know about the spare) but I doubt we will see those numbers

 

[BigChain]

Thanks.
So, he had an average power of 285W. Maximum 1450W. total energy 6459kJ
Average HR 143, max 190.
Everage speed 40, max 80.

However, it doesn't really say much, since majority of the 6h22 were spent drafting. I think any pro-rider (and fair number of hobbyists) can do 285W for 6 hours. The question is what was the average the first 5 hours, and what was the power output during his 1h solo. Is anyone disputing the 38kmh of Vlaeminck? In itself 38kmh is not alarming. So one would need data on wind speed and direciton to turn this into an unbelievable effort.

I timed the last 20km based on the 10 metre countdown clock. FC's time for the last 20km was 32:22 or an average speed of 37.075kmh. I would say the average speed for the last 40km was close to 38kmh.

 

[samb01]

Cancellara is no Landis, he is the best in the world over an hour effort.

Circular reasoning. You're arguing that Cancellara is the best because Cancellara is the best.

 

[la.margna]

I agree. So Canc opens up a two and a half minute lead and holds it and that evidence of doping? How many riders could chase him down anyway? AC? A few others maybe?

His attack was superbly timed. I'm tired of the "we know this guy is doping" crowd without any evidence at all.

Seems you didn't get my post right. It was an answer to exactly these guys who always shout doping if a rider impresses.

They're ALL FULL, therefore doping does not play a role as they suggest. So let's focus on cycling and don't waste time on doping all the time.

As I wrote in my posts, courage, form, tactics, technique, talent, etc.... and sometimes luck... that's what is decisive and makes the difference in cycling

 

[Mario Cipollini]

Circular reasoning. You're arguing that Cancellara is the best because Cancellara is the best.

Circular reasoning in that this type of audacity to attack one hour from the finish is 'cannibalistic', yet unlike Floyd Landis' 2006 Tour ride, is not an apparent outlier considering his past performances as a world time trial champion - making the point that a clear comparison with Eddy Merckx can be made in respect to the obliteration of the remainder of the field, mostly psychologically in this case.

 

[Inner Peace]

I don't know why the speculation for Cancellara starts now.

This PR win is completely in line with his ability and power.

Added to that, the win was due to a few factors:

1) being a world TT champ helps

2) Boonen, being silly, found himself wedged between 3 HTC riders when it was Cancellara was clear

3) The chasers gave up. Enough said.

Cancellara did not LITERALLY take 3 mins on individual effort vs team effort. He took 20 seconds from with power and timing, then the chase gave up and didn't work together, hence, the time gap exploded.

The point of my post is, I find it interesting that he is questioned now. Sure, he is amazing and powerful and there is alot of doping in the sport, but he has one of THE most consistent palmares with no real outliers. What does that mean?

a) He's been doping the whole time
b) He's clean
c) He's been steadily and carefully increasing the dose to make it look like its a consistent progression

Can't be stuffed speculating really...

 

[Blakeslee]

Regarding Flecha's clap at the end: I just assumed, especially since he went over immediately after and gave him a huge hug, that he was clapping to salute Cancellara. They're buddies and former teammates, and it was clear Flecha was real happy for him to win.

I thought Flecha's clapping was probably intended as a nice gesture of sportsmanship towards Thor for winning the sprint for second place. Flecha's attack was the one which blew up the chase group and Thor was the only one to make it across. The two then worked together well to distance the rest of the chase group and secure the remaining two podium spots. When the two came onto the velodrome together at the end Thor was clearly at an advantage due to his superior sprinting ability, but Flecha still gave it his best effort to try to win the sprint. I thought the clap at the end was an acknowledgment of all of this, the two working hard together to get to the finish and Flecha tipping his cap to Thor for a superior sprint after Flecha put in his best effort.

 

[wattage]

I remember when in PR2008 Fabian couldn't drop Boonen, now 2 years later it's like the guy has totally different legs, while Boonen maintains same performance. The performance difference between these 2 years is HUGE. I just cannot see how that can be done being clean.

 

[issoisso]

I spent the last 50kms of the race mostly thinking how much it reminded me of another swiss guy at a certain swiss race 12 years ago.

I remember when in PR2008 Fabian couldn't drop Boonen, now 2 years later it's like the guy has totally different legs, while Boonen maintains same performance. The performance difference between these 2 years is HUGE. I just cannot see how that can be done being clean.

He peaked far too early and was far too tired at Roubaix in 2008. He's the same guy on the same drugs as he was then.

 

[gillan1969]

what struck me was how far up the sproket he was when the camera panned in..

assuming an 11 bottom he was riding 16/17 a lot of the time.... that seems more 'believable' than pantani's 15 on alpe d'huez...

in any event...a great ride...

 

[goggalor]

I timed the last 20km based on the 10 metre countdown clock. FC's time for the last 20km was 32:22 or an average speed of 37.075kmh. I would say the average speed for the last 40km was close to 38kmh.

Cancellara attacked almost exactly at the 49-km-to-go mark (49.1 maybe). According to CyclingNews' live report, he attacked at 15:59 and crossed the line at 17:11. That's 49 km in 1 h 12 min, i.e. a 40.8 km/h average.

Cancellara's attack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7xjsPqHg3o
Live report: http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/108th-paris-roubaix-his/live-report

 

[dolophonic]

I thought his performance in the TDF was even more questionable, CSC\ Saxo dropping Valverde et al on the Col's.. that was not human. None the less he is no doubt super... and he got the hardware to prove it.
Just another day in pro cycling. This aint the X files.

 

[Oldman]

I don't know what to think but the way he rode way from everybody for two weeks in a row was incredible. Especially with the gap he managed to get it and open up from so far out both weeks, I'm shaking my head wondering is it possible clean.

When he jumped absolutely noone responded until he had 30 seconds. At that point it was a TT between him and any single guy that had legs left. The Vs coverage was all over the map but Cancellara didn't seem to waste much energy. Boonen was on the front alot.
That said his program was also well-timed.

 

[peloton]

horner is 38. so you're saying horner is doping and valverde isn't ?

ed rader

I didn't mention Valverde, I said previously that he should not be racing at the moment.
Horner riding a TT of his life at the age of 38/39, beating TT horses like Rogers, Pinotti, Rodrigues, Klöden and Wiggins?
Riii-iight.

It was as credible as Cancellara yesterday.
Bulls***.

 

[Anonymous]

It's sad that no one can win a race without someone accusing them of doping.

I still like Cancellera, regardless of the hate.

 

[Hitchey]

It's sad that no one can win a race without someone accusing them of doping.

I still like Cancellera, regardless of the hate.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Comments stating that 2 years ago rider A dropped rider B and now it's vice versa is indisputable proof that drugs are the reason shows how little understanding one has of a rider's maturity, both physically and mentally, as well as the periodicity of fitness or how the last several months of training has gone for any given rider.
All the negative posters must have Boonen's as well as Fabian's power files and training logs from the last 5 months and studied them as well as FC's blood test after the race and had it analyzed already since they know so much.

No one could be naive enough to state that there is no way ANY of them, including Fabian, are on the juice but to come out and pi ss on someone's race like this without proof is a shameful witch trial. When's the last time they put in 1100km weeks back to back to back in the rain and cold?

 

[theswordsman]

I Think that is the Data for the Ronde.

It didn't look like he had an SRM or Power tap on at P-R and he swapped bikes before that big solo

It is. Sorry, I thought my mention that it was about his Flanders bike, the word Flanders in the link, and the commentary saying that's what it takes to win Flanders would have made that clear, but I guess people assumed it was from the day. I thought it was a good resource, since it included the effort over all the climbs, and this thread is about Cancellara in general, not just P-R.

 

[Steampunk]

Maybe not the right comment for the clinic, but a number of earlier posts suggested Cancellara's arrogance or lack of character. I find him refreshingly entertaining and always a reliable quip in an interview. The whole "today I rode like a lion" stuff is terrific.

 

[Le breton]

It's sad that no one can win a race without someone accusing them of doping.

I still like Cancellera, regardless of the hate.

If dope is the main reason for Cancellara cancelling the opposition, it must be incredibly effective : he has been doing it for 13 years!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Cancellara

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

They're ALL FULL, therefore doping does not play a role as they suggest

Yes. Unless they are not all full, or not all as full as each other. I doubt that's what people accusing Cancellara on the strength of his last two performances mean to suggest however.