-
The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Re:
So then why are sponsors not scared of other sports (tennis, American NFL football, baseball/MLB) where there is clearly a ton of doping? I find this hard to sort out.
Benotti69 said:
So then why are sponsors not scared of other sports (tennis, American NFL football, baseball/MLB) where there is clearly a ton of doping? I find this hard to sort out.
Re: Re:
Doping is not an issue as it is rarely addressed.
Look at NFL and the head injury, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and how they are doing everything in their power to bury this and make it a non issue.
Cycling has a name as a doping sport and those who run it have failed to address it.
Vaughters merely paid lip service to it. When it came to Danielson he ducked the issue.
nayr497 said:
Doping is not an issue as it is rarely addressed.
Look at NFL and the head injury, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and how they are doing everything in their power to bury this and make it a non issue.
Cycling has a name as a doping sport and those who run it have failed to address it.
Vaughters merely paid lip service to it. When it came to Danielson he ducked the issue.
Re: Re:
It may be non-sensical from your perspective, but given that he has in fact run a WT level team for the last decade...likely attracting more than $100m during that time, Id say he has certainly done much better than I could have. Point being- there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of JV to be had, without resorting to this line of attack. Personally, Im glad that he has been able to give some of our domestic riders a chance at WT level cycling.
The F1 driver model never returns money to sponsors from driver contracts once they reach F1. Ever. That isnt a thing. Seriously, the majority of the grid is reliant on personal sponsors to put drivers in cars.
What those long term sponsors are counting on is loyalty from those drivers once they get somewhere with real visibility, like F1.
In MotoGP, you see Nastro Azzura (sp) still getting visibility on Rossi, from helping him as a teenager; Marc Marquez was a Repsol rider from like 5 or 6 yrs old, and is now riding for the Honda Factory squad; the list goes on and on.
We have invested in sponsoring riders very early in the development ladder, and have helped them through until WSBK, MotoGP, SX, and so on.
Thing is, the basics of the revenue model are very similar, and despite what you might think, the audience for motorcycle racing is not as big as pro cycling. The Tour alone gets more eyeballs than the entire season of MotoGP. Again, MotoGP does have some form of revenue sharing, from a smaller pot overall.
I can only hope that this turns around for the WT teams, and JV's team in particular.
It may be non-sensical from your perspective, but given that he has in fact run a WT level team for the last decade...likely attracting more than $100m during that time, Id say he has certainly done much better than I could have. Point being- there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of JV to be had, without resorting to this line of attack. Personally, Im glad that he has been able to give some of our domestic riders a chance at WT level cycling.
The F1 driver model never returns money to sponsors from driver contracts once they reach F1. Ever. That isnt a thing. Seriously, the majority of the grid is reliant on personal sponsors to put drivers in cars.
What those long term sponsors are counting on is loyalty from those drivers once they get somewhere with real visibility, like F1.
In MotoGP, you see Nastro Azzura (sp) still getting visibility on Rossi, from helping him as a teenager; Marc Marquez was a Repsol rider from like 5 or 6 yrs old, and is now riding for the Honda Factory squad; the list goes on and on.
We have invested in sponsoring riders very early in the development ladder, and have helped them through until WSBK, MotoGP, SX, and so on.
Thing is, the basics of the revenue model are very similar, and despite what you might think, the audience for motorcycle racing is not as big as pro cycling. The Tour alone gets more eyeballs than the entire season of MotoGP. Again, MotoGP does have some form of revenue sharing, from a smaller pot overall.
I can only hope that this turns around for the WT teams, and JV's team in particular.
Re: Re:
That is, unfortunately, true.
I just watched a discussion about the recent death of a 26 year old Mr. Olympia competitor, and the bodybuilders mentioned cycling as a drug riddled sport. Very surreal, considering the compounds and dosages that pro bodybuilders openly admit to using.
Thing is, I dont know that anything can be done by the people in cycling to change that perception, to be honest. JV certainly ducked the Danielson issue. They should have thrown him clear under the bus, repeatedly.
Still, the NFL and NBA owners are openly arguing for allowing HGH usage, among other things, and no one bats an eye. Seriously, how can you explain 300lb men running and jumping so fast and so on?
Benotti69 said:
That is, unfortunately, true.
I just watched a discussion about the recent death of a 26 year old Mr. Olympia competitor, and the bodybuilders mentioned cycling as a drug riddled sport. Very surreal, considering the compounds and dosages that pro bodybuilders openly admit to using.
Thing is, I dont know that anything can be done by the people in cycling to change that perception, to be honest. JV certainly ducked the Danielson issue. They should have thrown him clear under the bus, repeatedly.
Still, the NFL and NBA owners are openly arguing for allowing HGH usage, among other things, and no one bats an eye. Seriously, how can you explain 300lb men running and jumping so fast and so on?
WRT the 100: here the number is only 60
Also in that, and WRT the comment above that "there is plenty to criticize JV about, but his dealing with sponsors doesnt seem to be one of them" - note the reference in that link to Liberty Global. In 2014, when the Cannondale merger happened (and the new team's budget was reported to be $25 million), Liberty Global (who put money into the Colorado race) were named as having turned Slipstream down. Now I don't know about you, but I'm not sure bitching about firms that refuse to sponsor you is a good thing. Would I want to get into a convo with you about sponsorship if I knew that at the end of, if I didn't sign, you'd someday, somehow, badmouth me? Like the way JV badmouthed NetFlix?
Also in that, and WRT the comment above that "there is plenty to criticize JV about, but his dealing with sponsors doesnt seem to be one of them" - note the reference in that link to Liberty Global. In 2014, when the Cannondale merger happened (and the new team's budget was reported to be $25 million), Liberty Global (who put money into the Colorado race) were named as having turned Slipstream down. Now I don't know about you, but I'm not sure bitching about firms that refuse to sponsor you is a good thing. Would I want to get into a convo with you about sponsorship if I knew that at the end of, if I didn't sign, you'd someday, somehow, badmouth me? Like the way JV badmouthed NetFlix?
JV has burned through a lot of sponsors.
Maybe that is result linked or as Fmk demonstrates that JV's mouths is way ahead of his thought process. If i was a business man i would not slam someone who did not sponsor me this year, because who knows they might in 2 or 3 years, but if i criticise them now for not they definitely won't in the future. Maybe JV is MBA smarts but not practical smarts.
I mean a WT team should be winning their home races, especially if their sponsors are from there. That should be #1 goal to keep sponsors keen and happy. Tour of Alberta not won by JV in this a time when he desperately needs results? Not smarts.
Maybe that is result linked or as Fmk demonstrates that JV's mouths is way ahead of his thought process. If i was a business man i would not slam someone who did not sponsor me this year, because who knows they might in 2 or 3 years, but if i criticise them now for not they definitely won't in the future. Maybe JV is MBA smarts but not practical smarts.
I mean a WT team should be winning their home races, especially if their sponsors are from there. That should be #1 goal to keep sponsors keen and happy. Tour of Alberta not won by JV in this a time when he desperately needs results? Not smarts.
Re:
Agreed- not smart to throw shade when you are looking for sponsors, in my opinion. But again, its hard to say that I could do it better since Im not the one running a WT team. Glass houses and all that.
WRT the Tour of Alberta, his guys did just win 3 of 4 stages, so in reality they got exactly what they wanted for the sponsors- pictures of his guys winning and posting up, and podium shots.
Yes, they 17 of us on the forum will say that they didnt win GC, but I dont think many sponsors even know what that is. Optics are what matter most in sponsorship. Just saying...
Benotti69 said:
Agreed- not smart to throw shade when you are looking for sponsors, in my opinion. But again, its hard to say that I could do it better since Im not the one running a WT team. Glass houses and all that.
WRT the Tour of Alberta, his guys did just win 3 of 4 stages, so in reality they got exactly what they wanted for the sponsors- pictures of his guys winning and posting up, and podium shots.
Yes, they 17 of us on the forum will say that they didnt win GC, but I dont think many sponsors even know what that is. Optics are what matter most in sponsorship. Just saying...
Re: Re:
When you put your head above the parapet and boy JV loves doing it, he just cant stand the negatives (which he mostly creates) be prepared to get shot at.
Winning overall is the end result as that is the final podium and generates more publicity. Yeah they did well but not well enough! Optics being what matter, final podium gets most. Hence some of JV's sponsor problems.
I think sponsors nowadays are very careful where they put their monies and know what generates most publicity. I guess american companies have hosts of interns researching stuff like this. Be mad not too!
.Froomestrong. said:
When you put your head above the parapet and boy JV loves doing it, he just cant stand the negatives (which he mostly creates) be prepared to get shot at.
Winning overall is the end result as that is the final podium and generates more publicity. Yeah they did well but not well enough! Optics being what matter, final podium gets most. Hence some of JV's sponsor problems.
I think sponsors nowadays are very careful where they put their monies and know what generates most publicity. I guess american companies have hosts of interns researching stuff like this. Be mad not too!
Re: Re:
To be clear- Im not defending JV as much as Im pointing out that at some point the criticism becomes more of a personal attack. Id just prefer not to kick a guy when he is down, and right now, he is clearly down. Why throw a drowning man an anchor, you know?
Also- as someone who specifically deals with athlete and team sponsorships in racing, I would strongly disagree with your claim about sponsors understanding GC and other "nuances" of bike racing. It is way off base. And yes, it is seen as a nuance.
By example- my LBS has a bunch of older Cannondale PR posters of Sagan winning stages at ToC and TdF. In exactly none of those posters do they mention GC, or even the green jersey.
Why?
Because it doesnt matter to the majority of people who would likely be influenced by the advertising. Really.
So again, winning 3 or 4 stages at ToA, will be much better for marketing than winning 1 of 4 and the GC.
The only place that GC "generates more publicity" is the yellow jersey at TdF- but then I dont think that any corporate sponsors right now are thinking that they have a shot at the yellow while UK Postal is running roughshod over the bunch.
Benotti69 said:
To be clear- Im not defending JV as much as Im pointing out that at some point the criticism becomes more of a personal attack. Id just prefer not to kick a guy when he is down, and right now, he is clearly down. Why throw a drowning man an anchor, you know?
Also- as someone who specifically deals with athlete and team sponsorships in racing, I would strongly disagree with your claim about sponsors understanding GC and other "nuances" of bike racing. It is way off base. And yes, it is seen as a nuance.
By example- my LBS has a bunch of older Cannondale PR posters of Sagan winning stages at ToC and TdF. In exactly none of those posters do they mention GC, or even the green jersey.
Why?
Because it doesnt matter to the majority of people who would likely be influenced by the advertising. Really.
So again, winning 3 or 4 stages at ToA, will be much better for marketing than winning 1 of 4 and the GC.
The only place that GC "generates more publicity" is the yellow jersey at TdF- but then I dont think that any corporate sponsors right now are thinking that they have a shot at the yellow while UK Postal is running roughshod over the bunch.
I would argue JV is not down, but the staff are going to be down. JV is doing ok financially, you can be sure of that. His ego will take a hit.
But pro cycling is a dirty sport and anyone getting invloved with it better have their eyes open. Not a sport for long term employment for many.
But pro cycling is a dirty sport and anyone getting invloved with it better have their eyes open. Not a sport for long term employment for many.
Re: Re:
So would it be fair to say there are things in his sponsor dealings that one could criticise him over? (And let's be fair here - you don't have to be able to walk a mile in his shoes to be able to point out that he's limping.).Froomestrong. said:
Re: Re:
I think it was in response to a question about how he could have a TdF podium finisher and still not be able to land a sponsor that JV said results don't actually matter, they don't much alter what a sponsor is buying.Benotti69 said:
I posted a comment on the finance thread, Bob Stapleton pointing out that the companies who would have previously considered sponsoring cycling believe they're getting more bang for their bucks from AdSense placements than the (mythical) 3.5 billion worldwide TV viewers standard cycling pitches offer. Cycling needs to broaden its sponsor gene pool.Benotti69 said:
Re: Re:
I would have thought it was a results driven business for sponsors looking for publicity and results dictate the amount of publicity. Being on the top step of a podium is maximum publicity. But then JV has said lots of BS over the years.
I agree with what Stapleton said(companies think they're getting more bang for their bucks from AdSense placements than the (mythical) 3.5 billion worldwide TV viewers). I dont agree that companies get more from AdSense (but what do i know) and i do agree that Advertising and sponsoring are still trying to figure how to best to reach its target audiences.
fmk_RoI said:
I would have thought it was a results driven business for sponsors looking for publicity and results dictate the amount of publicity. Being on the top step of a podium is maximum publicity. But then JV has said lots of BS over the years.
I agree with what Stapleton said(companies think they're getting more bang for their bucks from AdSense placements than the (mythical) 3.5 billion worldwide TV viewers). I dont agree that companies get more from AdSense (but what do i know) and i do agree that Advertising and sponsoring are still trying to figure how to best to reach its target audiences.
Re: Re:
I'm not so sure. I think it's about profile and maybe about engagement and you can get that without winning. Look at the way Orica engages its fan base, look at the little team that could narrative that is often used. Yes, some results matter to some: Sky, for instance, need the results, for Murdoch to be able to show how he's buying international pride for the country and so questions shouldn't be asked about the extent of his empire or the antics of his employees. Or a team like Aqua Blue - the current little team that could - that's about a narrative of ambition (which, admittedly, at some point down the line wears thin and you either need to switch up to a new narrative or get the results the old one promised). Short version: it differs for different teams and different sponsors but isn't always results driven.Benotti69 said:
Marketers think online works, that you can accurately target to your chosen demographic, and they like it cause it has clearer (albeit equally inaccurate) metrics.Benotti69 said:
Re: Re:
Not gonna disagree with much here. Samll teams with small sponsors wont expect results as such and look at other ways to garner exposure through their sponsorship, but a WT team that talks big and i think JV likes to talk big, expect results (wins) to match.I think Americans like winning and JVs sponsorts tend to be aimed at Yanks so they need to see wins.
fmk_RoI said:
Not gonna disagree with much here. Samll teams with small sponsors wont expect results as such and look at other ways to garner exposure through their sponsorship, but a WT team that talks big and i think JV likes to talk big, expect results (wins) to match.I think Americans like winning and JVs sponsorts tend to be aimed at Yanks so they need to see wins.
Re: Re:
Well, of course there are probably things in his dealing with sponsors over the years that are fine to critique- but its difficult to do that not knowing what has gone on behind the scenes. I have not personally seen him do something publicly that was truly insane/damaging. Yeah, he may have cast shade, but again, that is a far cry from what I believe would warrant the sort of invective that he gets here.
As an aside, I do know a few people that have sponsored/worked with his teams over the years, and while they have all said he is..."interesting", they have all said that he did a good job representing their products. (This is from 3 different product reps going back to the late 2000's)
Ultimately, I dont have a "dog in this fight", so Im not emotionally invested here one way or another.
I do however try to have empathy in situations here, mostly because Im old and my experience has been that life is complicated and messy. *shrugs*
fmk_RoI said:
Well, of course there are probably things in his dealing with sponsors over the years that are fine to critique- but its difficult to do that not knowing what has gone on behind the scenes. I have not personally seen him do something publicly that was truly insane/damaging. Yeah, he may have cast shade, but again, that is a far cry from what I believe would warrant the sort of invective that he gets here.
As an aside, I do know a few people that have sponsored/worked with his teams over the years, and while they have all said he is..."interesting", they have all said that he did a good job representing their products. (This is from 3 different product reps going back to the late 2000's)
Ultimately, I dont have a "dog in this fight", so Im not emotionally invested here one way or another.
I do however try to have empathy in situations here, mostly because Im old and my experience has been that life is complicated and messy. *shrugs*
Re:
Im sure JV will be fine financially, but I doubt he is going this to get rich. As you probably know, the best way to make a million dollars in bike racing is to start with five million.
Like him or not, the guy has spent his life building this team/organization, and if it ends like this it would be a bad blow for him. I wouldnt wish that sort of thing on anyone.
Benotti69 said:
Im sure JV will be fine financially, but I doubt he is going this to get rich. As you probably know, the best way to make a million dollars in bike racing is to start with five million.
Like him or not, the guy has spent his life building this team/organization, and if it ends like this it would be a bad blow for him. I wouldnt wish that sort of thing on anyone.
Re:
JV knows how to win friends and influence........building strong teams bonds, hmmmmmm :lol:
fmk_RoI said:
JV knows how to win friends and influence........building strong teams bonds, hmmmmmm :lol:
JV wisely chose a "flexible goal" for that crowdfunding campaign, so he still gets to con his fans out of their $529,080 (thus far).
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Paris - Roubaix 2024, one day monument, April 7- Started by Dreginald
- Replies: 2K
-
-
Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2024 (March 18-24)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 2K
-
-
De Ronde van Vlaanderen (270.8 km), 2024 March 31 (Sunday)- Started by Netserk
- Replies: 1K
-
Amstel is Gold, Jerry, Gold! Men's Classic One-Day Race, April 14, 2024- Started by red_flanders
- Replies: 708
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram