Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this normal?

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I know. I was just wondering what makes some people walk away - like Vansummeren and Meersman - while others continue and pay the ultimate prize - like Myngheer.
Though, I guess a guy like Goolaerts didn't actually continue, he just didn't know... :sad:
 
Re:

Random Direction said:
There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
Assuming the data is suitably complete, the obvious next step is to consider the numbers of riders on teams in these countries compared with others before we start theorising about potential causes of a pattern that may not exist.
 
Re: Re:

simoni said:
Random Direction said:
There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
Assuming the data is suitably complete, the obvious next step is to consider the numbers of riders on teams in these countries compared with others before we start theorising about potential causes of a pattern that may not exist.
You've been told the data is not complete.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
simoni said:
Random Direction said:
There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
Assuming the data is suitably complete, the obvious next step is to consider the numbers of riders on teams in these countries compared with others before we start theorising about potential causes of a pattern that may not exist.
You've been told the data is not complete.
OK, step one is then to try and understand if what we know represents a reasonable sample to take things further. Verifying this may well be impossible.
 
I like that my friend brought his non angry friend Chewbacca into the discussion, or ar least his defense of 20 conditions that must be met before the data can be examined.

A friendly approach - kind of like throwing a bunch of of storm troopers at luke skywalker, knowing full well that luke must win.

Only to find himself in the garbage incinerator with Chewebacca, who just *** himself.
 
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
 
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

samhocking said:
I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
 
Jul 14, 2015
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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

simoni said:
Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
The big problem with running is it's a weight-bearing sport. Your body weight is hitting the ground thousands of times and something starting at the feet going upwards is going to give out before you ever get close to the kind of time you can reach on a bike (no impact there).

The endurance demands are very similar and you can predict pretty well from biking to running performance and vice-versa.
 
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

simoni said:
samhocking said:
I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
You're absolutely right - our bodies are designed for long-distance running & walking. In fact, we are the only mammals that have the physiology for efficient endurance capabilities over very long distances.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/04/humans-hot-sweaty-natural-born-runners/

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/06/daniel_lieberman_long_distance_running_we_evolved_endurance_and_dislike.html
 
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

Nomad said:
simoni said:
samhocking said:
I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
You're absolutely right - our bodies are designed for long-distance running & walking. In fact, we are the only mammals that have the physiology for efficient endurance capabilities over very long distances.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/04/humans-hot-sweaty-natural-born-runners/

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/06/daniel_lieberman_long_distance_running_we_evolved_endurance_and_dislike.html
We definitely are not designed for long distance running over multiple days. Clearly we are designed to run short distances like those articles state of 10-15km (1-2000 calories) on single day, because that's how much energy we can store without stopping and refuelling, but not 5 hours a day everyday for 3 weeks. If that was required to hunt food you would be burning 6-7000 calories a day chasing antelope and not even be able to eat 7000 calories from that antelope in time for the next days running. You would be burning 7000 calories a day to eat 7000 calories a day which is pointless when you only need 2000.
 
For fans of join the dots: Dutch media investigation claims legal thyroid meds - which bring increased risk of heart problems + sudden death - being used in multiple sports and multiple countries to aid weight loss:
Top athletes would use the medication in particular because they think it causes weight loss. [...] The seriousness appears from a letter (.pdf) of 10 July of the Dutch skating union (KNSB) to the skaters. "The KNSB stands for a clean, fair and therefore doping-free sport," writes technical director Remy de Wit. "Recently we have received signals that athletes in the skating world are prescribed medication that, although not on WADA's doping list, but whose use without medical necessity poses health risks, we would like to warn you specifically." [...] A letter (.pdf) from the Doping Authority was also sent to WADA on 10 July, which was also signed by sports organization NOC*NSF and the Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport. It is requested to place thyroid hormones on the banned list. "We have indications from medical professionals in the Netherlands that thyroid hormones are currently being abused by top athletes," he says.[...] "There is an increased risk of osteoporosis, heart problems and sudden death", says Visser when it comes to misuse (abuse) of thyroid hormones.
 
What really scares me is how random it seems to be whether anything is detected or not.
Tanguy Turgis dodged the bullet, but then there's Jimmy Duquennoy; nothing detected in the pre-season tests, seemed fine, and then… just... gone!
 
4 young Belgian riders to suddenly die of cardiac arrest in the last year.
Three of them at home. Vanacker and Goeleven while sleeping.

Bjarne Vanacker (20) - Nov 2017
Jeroen Goeleven (25) - Aprl 2018
Michael Goolaerts (23) - April 2018
Jimmy Duquennoy (23) - Oct 2018

Do you know of anyone from other nationalities that died in the same period? I don't.

It looks more than a coincidence to me.
 
Re:

huge said:
4 young Belgian riders to suddenly die of cardiac arrest in the last year.
Three of them at home. Vanacker and Goeleven while sleeping.

Bjarne Vanacker (20) - Nov 2017
Jeroen Goeleven (25) - Aprl 2018
Michael Goolaerts (23) - April 2018
Jimmy Duquennoy (23) - Oct 2018

Do you know of anyone from other nationalities that died in the same period? I don't.

It looks more than a coincidence to me.
Nietzsche. “That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”
us = belgium national squad
 
Re: Re:

ClassicomanoLuigi said:
fmk_RoI said:
A recent article in Le Monde (€) claimed there is evidence thyroid meds are being used in cycling and the UCI is conscious of this. If anyone has accessed this and think it adds anything, please post a quote/summary. TIA.
The intro to the article is about the abnormal weight loss phenomenon in cycling, and uses Wiggins as an example of a "human guinea pig" for some kind of new methods, and says Froome "looks like a concentration camp victim". So then, there's a rundown of possible methods of extreme weight loss while maintaining or increasing power. With hormones thyroïdiennes being one of them.
- Le directeur médical de l’UCI, Xavier Bigard, s’inquiète des « moyens mis en œuvre pour arriver à ces états » (anorexiques), citant, comme les médecins d’équipe, la prise d’hormones thyroïdiennes (T3 et T4). Normalement prescrites à des patients souffrant d’insuffisances de la glande thyroïde, ces gélules en vente libre sur Internet facilitent l’élimination des graisses et sont utilisées dans plusieurs équipes, malgré les risques de dérèglements hormonaux.
"The medical director of the UCI is worried about these "techniques which have been put into use to arrive at these anorexic states", citing, as do team doctors, the thyroid hormones T3 and T4. Normally prescribed for patients suffering from thyroid insufficiency, capsules [of T3/T4] sold openly on the internet assist in fat reduction, and are used by several teams, despite the risks of hormonal disturbances."
Elles ne sont pas interdites par le code mondial antidopage, mais l’UCI réfléchit à un « contrôle et à la régulation de l’utilisation de ces extraits hormonaux », révèle le professeur. « Les extraits thyroïdiens sont hyperdangereux et inconcevables, tranche Jacky Maillot, médecin de l’équipe Groupama-FDJ. Ça devrait être interdit puisque c’est du dopage masqué. »
"These are not prohibited by the WADA code but the UCI is considering "testing and regulation of these hormonal extracts", the professor reveals. "Thyroid extracts are super-dangerous and inconceivable", opines Jack Maillot, team doctor for Groupama-FDJ. "They should be banned because they are a form of hidden doping"

What does this article add to the discussion, well the reasons cyclists might take thyroid hormones are: definitely for the metabolic effect of losing fat, and possibly for the endocrine effect of small increases in endogenous EPO. The endocrinology is complicated, but raising EPO is a possible ancillary motive. And furthermore, it's a matter of fact that this grey-area use of thyroid hormones has been used in elite running by athletes such as Mo Farah, and that thyroid medicines are part of Salazar's training regimen
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/sports/nike-oregon-project-alberto-salazar-dathan-ritzenhein.html

And what the Le Monde interview quotes add to that is: apparently it is also a matter of fact that "several" WT or pro conti cycling teams are using T3/T4.
Thanks for doing the summary/translation job.
 
Re:

huge said:
4 young Belgian riders to suddenly die of cardiac arrest in the last year.
Three of them at home. Vanacker and Goeleven while sleeping.

Bjarne Vanacker (20) - Nov 2017
Jeroen Goeleven (25) - Aprl 2018
Michael Goolaerts (23) - April 2018
Jimmy Duquennoy (23) - Oct 2018

Do you know of anyone from other nationalities that died in the same period? I don't.

It looks more than a coincidence to me.
Did you read the OP? Did you read any of the thread?

The fact that you include Bjarne Vanaker in your little listicle suggests you are seeking confirmation of a theory. If you'd bothered to read the OP you'd see he's not the only amateur we know has died. We know of the Egyptian rider, Nasser. We know of the British rider, Craig. Are they the only amateurs to have died? Unlikely. Most amateur deaths wouldn't even make the local papers, let alone international news. Which is partly why there has been an attempt to restrict the debate to elite level pros.
 

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