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Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this normal?

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May 13, 2011
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There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
 
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Random Direction said:
There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
Your hypothesis appears to involve mis-reading teams where I was clear I had provided a list of sponsors, and looking for a regional angle, Belgium. What else is it saying?
 
Nov 10, 2009
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Re: Re:

[..... A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

[/quote]Your hypothesis appears ...[/quote]

He said "no hypothesis" :rolleyes:
 
May 13, 2011
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My friend (I'll call you that because I like your tough side), a hypothesis is much stronger than simple exploration of ideas. There is insufficient data for a hypothesis, yet enough to sniff around, kinda like a dog following a scent. Most likely leads to nothing, once in a while leads to a rotting fish on a beach.
 
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Random Direction said:
My friend (I'll call you that because I like your tough side), a hypothesis is much stronger than simple exploration of ideas. There is insufficient data for a hypothesis, yet enough to sniff around, kinda like a dog following a scent. Most likely leads to nothing, once in a while leads to a rotting fish on a beach.
Why so coy? Why not say where this could possibly lead, why not explain the obvious avenues to examine? Can't you think of them?
 
May 13, 2011
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Of course I can interpret data mon ami. Have multiple published papers on the subject. However since it appears that my friend is looking to both create and win an Internet argument, I prefer to find out what is behind the gruff exterior. Usually there is a soft undernourished piece inside - the trick is to find a way to it.

On cardiac abnormalities, my family has been a struck with that. In familiar case, I'd call it a combination of over training and stress. For much more talented athletes like professional cyclists, there is likely some of that too.

Spatial aggregation - chance, confirmation bias, or an indicative cluster? In a normal population, likely one of the first two. Are cyclists normal?
 
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Random Direction said:
Spatial aggregation - chance, confirmation bias, or an indicative cluster? In a normal population, likely one of the first two. Are cyclists normal?
So you wouldn't begin by questioning the validity of the data?

We've got a list of riders drawn from 'cross, conti and pro-conti teams, as well as World Tour. We know we don't know all the cases at below WT level, just the newsworthy ones, so we know we're dealing with incomplete data there. What impact does that have on the data?

Even at WT level, what confidence can we have that we have (near) complete data? Do we have data from former WT riders who spent the last years of their career riding at lower levels? How about data on former WT riders who, post retirement, have been diagnosed with a cardiac anomaly, surely they should be on the list too, but surely we can't possibly have all the data on them, they're not all likely to put out a press release saying they've just had a flutter, are they?

The list of sponsors itself - what is it? If the cases included cover a ten year period, 2009-2018, then some of the teams those riders rode for are from back in the mid-nineties, so we've got a list of sponsors from a quarter of a century. Are sponsors who have been in the sport longer than others more represented simply by having been there? Are sponsors who have sponsored teams at multiple levels - development and professional teams, cross and road teams - more represented simply by having been there? What is the churn rate of riders at the different teams the sponsors have been involved with - have some been quite stable while others have been all change all the time? Do we differentiate sponsors by where they appear in a team name, or just treat all name sponsors as being equal? Why aren't we including other sponsors?

Way, way, way before you even begin thinking about clusters, surely you have to ask whether or not the data isn't itself just a clusterfuck?

As I said: playing joining the dots is easy...
 
Could there, and this is a pretty horrible thought imho, but could there be a just toughen it up mentality in Belgium/the Netherlands?
According to Meersman while a French doctor advised him to stop, a Belgian one advised him to continue. And... didn't Myngheer already have a warning, yet continued? Of course, can't have been easy having - probably - chased a dream your whole life, only to be told that your health may not be strong enough. For Vansummeren and Meersman I suppose it was a lot easier to just walk away.
 
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RedheadDane said:
Could there, and this is a pretty horrible thought imho, but could there be a just toughen it up mentality in Belgium/the Netherlands?
According to Meersman while a French doctor advised him to stop, a Belgian one advised him to continue. And... didn't Myngheer already have a warning, yet continued? Of course, can't have been easy having - probably - chased a dream your whole life, only to be told that your health may not be strong enough. For Vansummeren and Meersman I suppose it was a lot easier to just walk away.
Vansummeren, Meersman and Myngheer - and the sponsors of the various teams they rode for - are all in the list...
 
I know. I was just wondering what makes some people walk away - like Vansummeren and Meersman - while others continue and pay the ultimate prize - like Myngheer.
Though, I guess a guy like Goolaerts didn't actually continue, he just didn't know... :sad:
 
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Random Direction said:
There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
Assuming the data is suitably complete, the obvious next step is to consider the numbers of riders on teams in these countries compared with others before we start theorising about potential causes of a pattern that may not exist.
 
Re: Re:

simoni said:
Random Direction said:
There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
Assuming the data is suitably complete, the obvious next step is to consider the numbers of riders on teams in these countries compared with others before we start theorising about potential causes of a pattern that may not exist.
You've been told the data is not complete.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
simoni said:
Random Direction said:
There is a good reason why i simply saod interesting. A grouping of data points does not lead to a conclusion, simply a need to understand why the data is behaving in the way it does. A trail to look at in more detail, yes, a hypothesis or conclusion, no.

Why not be curious about numbers? Better than fighting over them. Want to be my friend?
Assuming the data is suitably complete, the obvious next step is to consider the numbers of riders on teams in these countries compared with others before we start theorising about potential causes of a pattern that may not exist.
You've been told the data is not complete.
OK, step one is then to try and understand if what we know represents a reasonable sample to take things further. Verifying this may well be impossible.
 
If I may step in just for a sec...

Hypothesis means it's just the mere idea that things can happen.

Theory means it's an experiment that scientifically can be recreated. (By virtue of mathematical equations and such.)

Very big difference, yet so subtle at the same time.

Now, going back to what our (very angry) brother fmk_Rol had posted earlier - there can be no true theory on endurance athletes being no doctor who dopes them would ever admit to ever doing such.

Hence, with the lack of actual legal study being done on doping athletes and their doctors we have no theory. And thusly we are ***.
 
May 13, 2011
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I like that my friend brought his non angry friend Chewbacca into the discussion, or ar least his defense of 20 conditions that must be met before the data can be examined.

A friendly approach - kind of like throwing a bunch of of storm troopers at luke skywalker, knowing full well that luke must win.

Only to find himself in the garbage incinerator with Chewebacca, who just *** himself.
 
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
 
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

samhocking said:
I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
 
Jul 14, 2015
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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

simoni said:
Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
The big problem with running is it's a weight-bearing sport. Your body weight is hitting the ground thousands of times and something starting at the feet going upwards is going to give out before you ever get close to the kind of time you can reach on a bike (no impact there).

The endurance demands are very similar and you can predict pretty well from biking to running performance and vice-versa.
 
Apr 20, 2016
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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

simoni said:
samhocking said:
I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
You're absolutely right - our bodies are designed for long-distance running & walking. In fact, we are the only mammals that have the physiology for efficient endurance capabilities over very long distances.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/04/humans-hot-sweaty-natural-born-runners/

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/06/daniel_lieberman_long_distance_running_we_evolved_endurance_and_dislike.html
 
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