Cavendish 'Abused' by HTC

[scribe]

Maybe he should join Garmin-Cervelo & make a sprinting superteam

Not possible. Crybaby Cav will scream until he chases Farrar off the team

 

[The Hitch]

That means that he's worth a lot of money to a team. HTC have been very successful over the last few years, and the great bulk of that success has been based around combining the fastest sprinter in the world with a dedicated sprinter's team.

I dont know. Sure Cav is their main star, but even without him they have huge success. Despite the fact that in the main races they work for him, if you took him out they would still probably have been a top 3 team this season.

Greipel TDU
Rogers TOC
Martin ETOB.
Velits 2nd/3rd in Vuelta.

Thats before you look at the huge number of stages in minor and major races. something like 20 for Greipel. TTs for Martin in Eneco, Cali and Suisse. TTT in Vuelta. Goss and Greipel in Giro. Velits tt in Vuelta. Albasini (or whatever ) won the TOB.

Now imagine if they didnt have Cav. If all those stages based entirely around Cav were instead spent on getting Greipel/ Goss/ Renshaw sprints. Or working for Velits in the mountains. Trying to get Martin victories on tough stages. Getting someone into a high gc placing.

Thats before we consider a replacement for Cav. Possibly a GC contender. Or the fact that a great rider EBH was released last year, because the team was basing itself again around Cav.

They would still be the team with far and away the most victories and perhaps be the best team overall

 

[Arnout]

Still, they would miss a great deal of attention as the world class riders get the attention. None of the other riders you mention is at the same level as Cavendish. Yes, they would probably get as many victories as with him, but with less publicity.

 

[LugHugger]

Surely part of the problem is that Cavendish is worth less to HTC than to other teams, but HTC are worth more to Cavendish than other teams.

What I mean is that HTC have Greipel as an alternative and Greipel + HTC train = lots of stage wins.

And, on the flipside, Cavendish - HTC train = fewer stage wins for Cav. (And far less chance of getting that Tour Green Jersey.)

So, logically, HTC should offer him less than he'd get from some of the other big teams... and Cavendish should take it.

(Unless he's just a money-grubbing hoor.)

Steve

except that Greipel is leaving HTC at the end of this season meaning that if HTC want to keep winning sprints they need Cavendish even more than previous years. As to his reason and hoorishness - how long do you think that he will be at the top of his game? He should honour his existing contract, sure, but what would you do knowing you have limited maximum earning potential? I would maximise the value of my next contract, that's for sure. Without Cavendish and Greipel, HTC would look very ordinary.

 

[The Hitch]

Still, they would miss a great deal of attention as the world class riders get the attention. None of the other riders you mention is at the same level as Cavendish. Yes, they would probably get as many victories as with him, but with less publicity.

I dont know. All that has to be done is arrange for Greipel to show his middle finger as a victory celebration and the publicity will be there

Also, surely Cavs publicity dies a bit when one considers his victories are by far the most boring ones.

 

[hrotha]

except that Greipel is leaving HTC at the end of this season meaning that if HTC want to keep winning sprints they need Cavendish even more than previous years. As to his reason and hoorishness - how long do you think that he will be at the top of his game? He should honour his existing contract, sure, but what would you do knowing you have limited maximum earning potential? I would maximise the value of my next contract, that's for sure. Without Cavendish and Greipel, HTC would look very ordinary.

They have like a dozen sprinters. Even without Greipel and Cavendish they'd win plenty.

 

[180mmCrank]

Considering we are all cycling fans - some of us are awfully quick to throw stones at members of the pro peleton.

Cavendish is one of the most exciting riders around right now. He has the makings of one of the greatest sprinters to ever ride a bike. It's amazing and a privledge to be able to watch and see his career unfold.

He talks a lot and he speaks from the heart. A rare thing in this modern media swamped World. He says some authentic, annoying, dumb, refreshing things (delete as applicable). Like most of you I don't know the guy - I did meet him once and he seemed nice enough - but I don't know him really. I can see he is a young guy, with a lot of talent, a big mouth and a big heart.

Personally I am a big fan - but I don't find it hard to look past the noise and enjoy his talent. I am sure that HTC will sign him when appropriate I suspect they know a good thing too!

ps You can't just pull another Cavendish out of a hat!

 

[joy118118]

when TMO lost Ullrich and Kloeden, most people thought they were very ordinary.

with so many talents, HTC is hardly to be called ordinary. You will never know with the leaving of Greipel and Cavendish how many talent HTC riders will get their chances. Greipel didnt show his talents when Ullrich was still in TMO.

 

[ScottyMuser]

Still, they would miss a great deal of attention as the world class riders get the attention. None of the other riders you mention is at the same level as Cavendish. Yes, they would probably get as many victories as with him, but with less publicity.

and they wouldn't have got any where *near* the 8 GT stages Cav got on his own - Greipel simply isn't good enough, even with the sprint train, to beat farrar or etacchi regularly - as was shown by him only podiuming once in the Giro, and that was after they had gone home to prepare for the TDF.

And to count wins at the TDU and the TOC is laughable - its like claiming that cancellara had his best result by winning the Tour of Oman. Ignoring Cav's results HTC won *very* little of note - one stage in the Giro with Greipel, the ITT in the Vuelta, then a bunch of small races (certainly nothing close to a proper 1 week tour, or a classic, or ...). Rogers is simply not good enough to do anything at any race of note - even with a strong team behind him; Goss isn't ood enough in a sprint, Martin is a fantastic TTer (but not as good as Cancellara) who can't last 3 weeks, and Greipel wins rarely against the top quality opposition.

As for the contract thing - I think its a little eearly for cav to be complaining they hadn't offered him a contract, when they had just resigned his 2 biggest helpers (Renshaw and Eisel) for 2 more years, showing their intention as clear as a whistle that they want to continue with the Cav train of tedium. Maybe, like in other team sports, they wanted to be guaranteed of signing the doms like renshaw, before going to cav to show him this and that they were fully committed to continue to make the team all about him?

 

[The Hitch]

. Without Cavendish and Greipel, HTC would look very ordinary.

I said this a few minutes ago but ill say it again.

Martin winning every tt he enters which is without cancellara. Beating him at Suisse as well. Rogers and Pinnoti and Velits also winning tts.

Martin won Eneco Tour.
Rogers won California.
Albasini (?) won TOB.
Velits got a gt Podium ffs.

They won the ttt at the Vuelta as well.

I can think of about 4 teams who have had a better season than this. Astana. Saxo. Liquigas. Garmin (maybe) Rabo? (probably not) Caisse, OPL, Katusha(nah)

Every other team would trade their 2010 for this in a heartbeat.

This is after we take out the 2 people on whom Colombia put 80% of their resources, and they are still a top 5 team.

Very ordinary? no

 

[Anonymous]

i dont think leaving htc would be suck a good thing for cav. i think if he was to leave sky would break the bank to get him

I think its a bit of a catch 22 for Sky. Most people I have spoken to think that signing cav would upset the balance and focus of the team, then again, if the worlds best sprinter who happens to be british becomes available you leave yourself open to criticism if you dont try and sign him. My gut is Sky would make a decent offer but not be too concerned if someone came forward and made a better offer. Then they can do the "we tried but team x offered more money" route and win both ways.

As far as his contract goes, if HTC want to keep him then offer him a new contract now and pay him what hes worth. Not what he was worth a few weeks ago. If you arent offering him a new contract now one can only assume you are planning to release him at the end of 2011

 

[ScottyMuser]

I said this a few minutes ago but ill say it again.

Martin winning every tt he enters which is without cancellara. Beating him at Suisse as well. Rogers and Pinnoti and Velits also winning tts.

Martin won Eneco Tour.
Rogers won California.
Albasini (?) won TOB.
Velits got a gt Podium ffs.

They won the ttt at the Vuelta as well.

I can think of about 4 teams who have had a better season than this. Astana. Saxo. Liquigas. Garmin (maybe) Rabo? (probably not) Caisse, OPL, Katusha(nah)

Every other team would trade their 2010 for this in a heartbeat.

This is after we take out the 2 people on whom Colombia put 80% of their resources, and they are still a top 5 team.

Very ordinary? no

I'd argue that *with* Cav's and Greipel's wins, HTC have been about the 5th best team. Wins at Britain, TDU and TOC are really just jokes - its the 1 day classics/semi clsssics, the week long tours that people actually regard as being top quality (P-N, DL, Suisse, Romandie, Pais Vasco, settimana lombarda, castilla leon, trentino, T-A, burgos etc) and the GTs that a team really should be judged on - and yes, I am deliberately leaving off the PT as the majority of that is a joke and should be scrapped. And in *those* races, HTC won very little outside of Cav's 8 stages. Yes, Martin et al won a few TTs - but thats not exactly the same as, say, Samu Sanchez winning Burgos. Having a think back, the only races of note that they won were eneco (Martin) and GW (Eisel), and eneco was so close to vuelta not many really turned up.

Without them, the results put them below katyusha definitely, below garmin, euskaltel, rabo, ciasee, OPL, Vacansoleil (in the races they entered), and maybe cervelo. Velits was a shock, and was their 1 good non-Cav result - but if we were to judge a team with 1 podium place, rabo had a more successful season by viurtue of their podium coming in the TDF, Caisse's Arroyo podium leapfrogs HTC. Katyusha defintiely had a better year - Rodriguez *alone* had a better year the HTC minus Cav/Greipel

 

[ScottyMuser]

I think its a bit of a catch 22 for Sky. Most people I have spoken to think that signing cav would upset the balance and focus of the team, then again, if the worlds best sprinter who happens to be british becomes available you leave yourself open to criticism if you dont try and sign him. My gut is Sky would make a decent offer but not be too concerned if someone came forward and made a better offer. Then they can do the "we tried but team x offered more money" route and win both ways.

As far as his contract goes, if HTC want to keep him then offer him a new contract now and pay him what hes worth. Not what he was worth a few weeks ago. If you arent offering him a new contract now one can only assume you are planning to release him at the end of 2011

Really? I'd hope that if they did go for Cav, the criticism would be harsh. They have repeatedly said in interviews that their main aim is to develop a British TDF/GT winner insided of 5 years. Even attempting to get Cav is about as opposite to these aims as you could possibly get, showing that they were all mouth and no action, and would possibly (Hopefully) lead to the sacking of DB. Having a sprinter of the calibre of Cav means that 100% of your resources are going towards building a team around him, a la HTC, in a GT. This means there is ZERO chance they could even begin to develop any british gt contenders whilst cav is there, as they would automatically be put to the train to help Cav - not helpful when trying to develop as a GT rider yourself. Therefore it would be said to be hyopcritical.

 

[The Hitch]

Cavendish is one of the most exciting riders around right now.

Cav exciting? I know it is a matter of opinion but genetally people see excitiment as being when a rider attacks, takes risks, when you dont know who will win the stage. When the fight for the stage lasts from 20 k out not from 300 m out. When riders are going head to head against eachother trying to grind it out.

For me the 10 second sprint stages where the preceeding 4-6 hours are just a proccesion, are the most boring races.

These are the ONLY stages Cav wins.

And to make matters worse, not only is he the fastest but he usually has the best team anyway, so its usually not even up to him to weaken his opponents.

He only ever wins sprints where he just emerges out of the peloton 10 seconds from the end and wins.

Not only this but his team often conspires to make potentially exciting stages, boring by not giving the break a chance.

I know some might say that under this logic sprints will always be boring, but sprinters can be exciting. People like Hushovd get into breaks and are good classics specialists. Freire can get over hills. Boonen over cobbles. Pettachi goes from far out. Cav has never in his life been the head of the race before the 500m to go mark, even to take a pull for his team.

 

[El Pistolero]

Cav exciting? I know it is a matter of opinion but genetally people see excitiment as being when a rider attacks, takes risks, when you dont know who will win the stage. When the fight for the stage lasts from 20 k out not from 300 m out. When riders are going head to head against eachother trying to grind it out.

For me the 10 second sprint stages where the preceeding 4-6 hours are just a proccesion, are the most boring races.

These are the ONLY stages Cav wins.

And to make matters worse, not only is he the fastest but he usually has the best team anyway, so its usually not even up to him to weaken his opponents.

He only ever wins sprints where he just emerges out of the peloton 10 seconds from the end and wins.

Not only this but his team often conspires to make potentially exciting stages, boring by not giving the break a chance.

I know some might say that under this logic sprints will always be boring, but sprinters can be exciting. People like Hushovd get into breaks and are good classics specialists. Freire can get over hills. Boonen over cobbles. Pettachi goes from far out. Cav has never in his life been the head of the race before the 500m to go mark, even to take a pull for his team.

Boonen can get over hills as well as evidenced when he won the Worlds.

And to defend Cav a little. He's still young, he has time to improve in the classics department when his raw speed starts to fade.

It does make you wonder why people see Milan- San Remo as a "monument" though.

 

[Anonymous]

I think its a bit of a catch 22 for Sky. Most people I have spoken to think that signing cav would upset the balance and focus of the team, then again, if the worlds best sprinter who happens to be british becomes available you leave yourself open to criticism if you dont try and sign him. My gut is Sky would make a decent offer but not be too concerned if someone came forward and made a better offer. Then they can do the "we tried but team x offered more money" route and win both ways.

As far as his contract goes, if HTC want to keep him then offer him a new contract now and pay him what hes worth. Not what he was worth a few weeks ago. If you arent offering him a new contract now one can only assume you are planning to release him at the end of 2011

but bear in mind, 90% of sky fans know absolutely jack all about cycling. To them, if cav is available sky should sign him.

 

[bobbins]

Sky want him and have the funds to get him.

Cav wanting to go there is another thing. Does he want a lead-out train that finishes with 3km to go? Will he like sitting through powerpoint presentations prior to each stage and listening to a DS that has never ridden a bike?

There's more to this than money. Cav is paid a lot less than McEwen so it's about time HTC paid him what he is worth.

 

[Arnout]

It does make you wonder why people see Milan- San Remo as a "monument" though.

History of cycling. Amazing things happened in this race. If you make a new race with exactly the same profile and length of Milano Sanremo in any place, noone would be interested. See, that's the beauty of history.

Besides, its still a cool race and its good there is a important classic in which the sprinters have a chance too.

 

[El Pistolero]

History of cycling. Amazing things happened in this race. If you make a new race with exactly the same profile and length of Milano Sanremo in any place, noone would be interested. See, that's the beauty of history.

Besides, its still a cool race and its good there is a important classic in which the sprinters have a chance too.

Meh, they already get enough boring Tour stages and other small stage races.

 

[Arnout]

Meh, they already get enough boring Tour stages and other small stage races.

You don't have to watch.

Milano Sanremo is regarded as one of the biggest races and it should (and will) stay that way.

 

[El Pistolero]

You don't have to watch.

Milano Sanremo is regarded as one of the biggest races and it should (and will) stay that way.

It's also a reason why cycling will never take off outside Europe.

 

[bobbins]

It's also a reason why cycling will never take off outside Europe.

That's not necessarily a bad thing though is it?

 

[Lucky1]

Abused???

Cav is an amazingly talented sprinter but he acts like he needs to mature quite a bit and develop a bit more perspective on life. 'Abused'???

I had assumed that after being withdrawn from the Tour de Romandie becuase of his V sign incident and the riders protest against him after his crash into Haussler at the Tour de Suisse, he may at last have realised that he could do to be a bit more humble. Unfortunately it appears not.

 

[Dalakhani]

except that Greipel is leaving HTC at the end of this season

Ha ha, you're right. I don't know how I forgot this, I now remember reading about it.

As to his reason and hoorishness - how long do you think that he will be at the top of his game? He should honour his existing contract, sure, but what would you do knowing you have limited maximum earning potential? I would maximise the value of my next contract, that's for sure.

Really? Even if it meant knowing your chances of winning a TdF Green Jersey would shrink significantly?

I would like to think that most top cyclists care enough about their Palmares to be willing to take a lesser salary in order to be at a team that'll give them better winning chances.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Steve

 

[Arnout]

It's also a reason why cycling will never take off outside Europe.

Depends. Cycling is big in South America. Because they have their own races.

Trying to lure Europeans to races outside Europe won't work longterm, no. But creating a circuit with important domestic races will pay off in the long term.