Cavendish 'Abused' by HTC

[The Hitch]

Exactly the point that has been lost on some posters

What. that if you take the 2 main riders out of a team after the team has spent all its resources on a those riders the teams season will look a lot worse?

Great discovery there Sherlock.

 

[El Pistolero]

What. that if you take the 2 main riders out of a team after the team has spent all its resources on a those riders the teams season will look a lot worse?

Great discovery there Sherlock.

The point is that you shouldn't **** of your top cyclists if your spending all your resources on them.

Now of course I don't know what Cav gets paid compared to some other top sprinters, but surely someone like Cav deserves to be paid big time

Bad publicity is good publicity(unless it's doping related), so Cav making stupid comments to the media is a free bonus.

 

[LugHugger]

What. that if you take the 2 main riders out of a team after the team has spent all its resources on a those riders the teams season will look a lot worse?

Great discovery there Sherlock.

then stop trying to argue that they have had this great breakthrough season if you exclude their results

 

[Willy_Voet]

A contract is a bet. HTC bet on Cavendish and came up big.

He could have crashed two times like Boonen, trashed his knee and had a crappy year or two. HTC would have come out on the losing end.

Sure he's not getting paid what he's currently worth, but Columbia was smart to sign him at a certain wage and that's that.

Deal with it crybaby.

 

[Anonymous]

Well anyway your previous comment was this



Here is a list of teams who would gladly destroy their entire palmares in return for just 1 "second place at the Vuelta with someone who was only in the picture for one stage."

[Gbr] Sky Professional Cycling Team PRT 5775
I love arguments this easy.

To be fair, any arguments surrounding potential points at the vuelta etc should not include Sky. None of us have any way of knowing what would happened, had what happened not happened.

i think sky probably would exchange their entire season just for finishing the vuelta, let alone finishing second.

 

[ScottyMuser]

What. that if you take the 2 main riders out of a team after the team has spent all its resources on a those riders the teams season will look a lot worse?

Great discovery there Sherlock.

but the point is, someone (I beliebve it was you, but I apologise if it was someone else and you merely defending it) made the claim that without Greipel and Cav, HTC would still win plenty of races, and would have. We are therefore taking this to the logical conclusion of actually looking at what the other riders, the ones the team will be left with if Cav follows Greipel out the door, and pointing that actually, they may win a few smaller races, but they wouldn't really have had/would have a great season by anyones imagination - the 2 results of courser that do stand out is Eisels win at GW, and then Velits TT to the 3rd in the Vuleta (although, that was with the weakest field of all the GTs, and he did have a fair bit of luck on the way - i.e. Anton crashing out). Velits doesn't strike me as someone who will be able to match that, a flash in the panb, the same way as I view Wiggins.

 

[SpartacusRox]

A year left on his current contract and he is crying to the media about that? Who held a gun to his head and made him sign this in the first place?

This guy is damaged goods.

Lol, damaged goods. He is the best sprinter in the world, who as someone else has pointed out is a major reason for HTC's success. He applauds his teammates, he loves to race and if HTC let him go....well they are as stupid as your post would suggest you are.

 

[Boardslide]

Geezs my heart bleeds for him. It's slave labour! You mean he has to go to parties and get paid for it? What cyclist doesn't have to do this work?

As per Miss. italy - he's still boning her. She's actually from Paraguay.

Love this article on old flame Missy: http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/new...m-with-beauty-queen-after-dumping-fiance.html

£80,000 Audi sports car? The guy is seriously being abused. He needs a jet I tell you.

Once again your info is a bit out of date although I must admit I was wrong it wasn't April it was in May, as stated in the article below (col 2 para 2) by Paul Kimmage who is a bit more reliable than the News of the world.

http://www.highroadsports.com/images/uploads/media_articles/attachments/178.pdf

 

[The Hitch]

but the point is, someone (I beliebve it was you, but I apologise if it was someone else and you merely defending it) made the claim that without Greipel and Cav, HTC would still win plenty of races, and would have. We are therefore taking this to the logical conclusion of actually looking at what the other riders, the ones the team will be left with if Cav follows Greipel out the door, and pointing that actually, they may win a few smaller races, but they wouldn't really have had/would have a great season by anyones imagination - the 2 results of courser that do stand out is Eisels win at GW, and then Velits TT to the 3rd in the Vuleta (although, that was with the weakest field of all the GTs, and he did have a fair bit of luck on the way - i.e. Anton crashing out). Velits doesn't strike me as someone who will be able to match that, a flash in the panb, the same way as I view Wiggins.

But the point is their performance without Cav and Greipel was good. Even without these 2 they won 3 gt stages. In another stage, Goss cruised in behind Cav, so if you take out Cav, he won the stage. That makes 4. Only Saxo with 5 - 2 schleck, 2 canc 1 CAS, did better.

They were a constant presence in just about every stage race. They won Eneco and Cali, 3 different tters won stages through their season.

So what if Velits doesnt strike you as the type of person that wont repeat a gt. Under this logic, Freire didnt really win MSR because i dont expect him to win it again

4 gt stages a gt podium, 2 stage races and a classic. That is quite a good season. Certainatly not "very mediocre". I have no idea what possessed El pistolero to write such a thing.

But if you are looking to the future, then their season will get even better.

you say: "they may win a few smaller races, but they wouldn't really have had/would have a great season by anyones imagination"

Really? Bare in mind that all those stages spent leading out, working for Cav and Greipel would be directed towards someone else. They worked for Goss once and he got a stage. Another he got 3rd behind Cav after letting Hushovd cross the line 2nd. You think he wouldnt get more stages if they dedicated the team towards him. Same with Renshaw. You have him as a leadout he doesnt get results, but you let him go for stages, and there are stage wins.

And thats before we consider who they would have if they hypothetically let Cav go (which they wont). Thats his and Greipels salary able to be directed towards someone else. If they dont have Cav then that Salary will go towards another super rider.

And Tony Martin is improving. top talent right there. In TJVG they have potential stage races next year. Velits might not repeat Gt podium but who wouldnt want him.

 

[The Hitch]

then stop trying to argue that they have had this great breakthrough season if you exclude their results

If you take the top 2 out of every team then HTC have had by far far far far far far far away the best result.

Why should i stop arguing this??? Perhaps make an argument yourself rather than exagerating what i said.

If you decide to perform this stupid exercise of taking out HTCs 2 leaders, but for some reason no one elses, after the rest of the teams results were sacrificed for those riders then obviously their palmares is worse. But a GC podium, 4 Gt stages and 2 stage races is still a good season.

Better than Caisse. Better than Sky. Better than FDJ. Better than Cofidis. Better than Bbox. Better than Radioshack. Better than Lampre. Maybe better than Garmin. Better than Euskatel. Better than Agr. Better than Milram. Better than Quick step. Better than Footon. Better than Cervelo.

All PT teams. All spent their seasons trying to get results. And with their backup riders Colombia took them to school. If you think this is not impressive then respond with some valid points. Try it, dont be scared.

 

[El Pistolero]

If you take the top 2 out of every team then HTC have had by far far far far far far far away the best result.

Why should i stop arguing this??? Perhaps make an argument yourself rather than exagerating what i said.

If you decide to perform this stupid exercise of taking out HTCs 2 leaders, but for some reason no one elses, after the rest of the teams results were sacrificed for those riders then obviously their palmares is worse. But a GC podium, 4 Gt stages and 2 stage races is still a good season.

Better than Caisse. Better than Sky. Better than FDJ. Better than Cofidis. Better than Bbox. Better than Radioshack. Better than Lampre. Maybe better than Garmin. Better than Euskatel. Better than Agr. Better than Milram. Better than Quick step. Better than Footon. Better than Cervelo.

All PT teams. All spent their seasons trying to get results. And with their backup riders Colombia took them to school. If you think this is not impressive then respond with some valid points. Try it, dont be scared.

This is no discussion about HTC being a 2man team, but the fact that Greipel is leaving and HTC ****ing of their star(Cav) which could lead to Cavendish leaving the team thus leaving them without a big star(unless one of their talented young cyclists step up next season as the next big thing)

 

[The Hitch]

This is no discussion about HTC being a 2man team, but the fact that Greipel is leaving and HTC ****ing of their star(Cav) which could lead to Cavendish leaving the team thus leaving them without a big star(unless one of their talented young cyclists step up next season as the next big thing)

If Cav did leave then they would replace him with another star.

TJVG is the next big thing, and while Velits may only have just emerged, he has something other "potential stars" from his generation dont. A GT podium. Weve debated on here whether Richie Porte, Robert Gesink, Daniel Martin, Nicholas Roche will win Gts. Well Velits is their age and now has a podium. Would i be wrong in saying he is the only one with a gt stage win as well? So he has potential as well.

Then in Goss you have a very very good sprinter. Not Cav or Greipel, but not far off. With the HTC leadout it would cause Cav and Greipel problems in sprints.

In Rogers you have a 3 time world tt champion, with potential in stage races.

With Martin you have someone who wins any tt Cancellara doesnt enter, and some that he does. Guaranteed stage wins if not more. Also came 2nd on Ventoux in 09 so can climb.

Maybe non of them are stars (though MArtin will be, maybe Velits too, possibly Goss) but then i would say Garmin didnt have any starts this season and they still did very well. Greipel wasnt a star 2 years ago. But he was given a chance and now he is. Same could happen here.

Also bare in mind that someone would replace Cav.

I bet that in the unlikely event that Cav leaves. Cancellara will be wearing HTC next season.

 

[hiero2]

As good as Cav is, he's not as dominant as two years ago. Quite likely that in two more years he will be less dominant than today. Having your best year at an early age is not the optimum situation for maximizing career earnings - that's life.

I disagree, vagabond. He had a slow start to this season because he had a bad off-season, and he was ill at the start of the Vuelta so he wasn't great there, but at the Tour de France he was the same world-beating Cavendish he's always been. Honestly I'd expect him to be stronger next year, he'll certainly want to have another tilt at M-SR and the worlds course will probably suit him well.

Not as dominant? Perhaps almost true, but consider that the train is not as experienced or as powerful and balanced this year. Also, other teams are frantically targeting that train, to weaken it. And, for some reason, unknown to me, the first year they almost never challenged the HTC train. Freakish, in a way. I still think Cav is THE sprinter, numero uno.

They have like a dozen sprinters. Even without Greipel and Cavendish they'd win plenty.

Ah, really? Ok, have it your way, but my bet is on Cav. Greipel only has a shot at #3, on my books, and nobody else but Taylor and Petacchi are there on a regular basis.

. . .

I can think of about 4 teams who have had a better season than this. Astana. Saxo. Liquigas. Garmin (maybe) Rabo? (probably not) Caisse, OPL, Katusha(nah)

Every other team would trade their 2010 for this in a heartbeat.

This is after we take out the 2 people on whom Colombia put 80% of their resources, and they are still a top 5 team.

Very ordinary? no

I wholeheartedly agree. But this gets me to MY question - wtf is up with Highroad? Columbia is leaving? Scott is leaving? They've been talking to Cav about a new contract for MONTHS, and no agreement? He isn't their only winner, but he IS their star. They have a ways to go to develop their TdF winner, whoever he may be.

 

[joy118118]

I wholeheartedly agree. But this gets me to MY question - wtf is up with Highroad? Columbia is leaving? Scott is leaving? They've been talking to Cav about a new contract for MONTHS, and no agreement? He isn't their only winner, but he IS their star. They have a ways to go to develop their TdF winner, whoever he may be.

Dont worry about the leaving of Columbia and Scott. these two signed with HTC in 2008 that they were still overshadowed by TMO's leaving. So Bob didnt get much money from it.

IIRC when HTC began to sponsor the team, Bob said he didnt care Columbia would leave. HTC brought the team a lot of money.

Dont forget this year they signed with Google and Skype. Now there are rumors that Specialized will sponosor them. The leaving of sponsors didnt hurt them. I bet Bob will earn more next year.

 

[thehog]

Once again your info is a bit out of date although I must admit I was wrong it wasn't April it was in May, as stated in the article below (col 2 para 2) by Paul Kimmage who is a bit more reliable than the News of the world.

http://www.highroadsports.com/images/uploads/media_articles/attachments/178.pdf

No Im still right. What did you think Cav did after he again saw Melissaa and started winning stages at the winning stages at the Tour? You guessed it. Went straight back to Miss. Italy. Like I said all class.

 

[Benotti69]

Considering we are all cycling fans - some of us are awfully quick to throw stones at members of the pro peleton.

Cavendish is one of the most exciting riders around right now. He has the makings of one of the greatest sprinters to ever ride a bike. It's amazing and a privledge to be able to watch and see his career unfold.

He talks a lot and he speaks from the heart. A rare thing in this modern media swamped World. He says some authentic, annoying, dumb, refreshing things (delete as applicable). Like most of you I don't know the guy - I did meet him once and he seemed nice enough - but I don't know him really. I can see he is a young guy, with a lot of talent, a big mouth and a big heart.

Personally I am a big fan - but I don't find it hard to look past the noise and enjoy his talent. I am sure that HTC will sign him when appropriate I suspect they know a good thing too!

ps You can't just pull another Cavendish out of a hat!

+1

Most sensible post i have read on Cav in a while. I like Cav for what he is. He tells it as he sees it. I like that. He has probably not had the best upbringing that one could wish for. But i dont care. Sick of riders repeating the same interview over and over, platitudes. Cav wears his heart on his sleeve and i like that, i dont agree with what he says but i like him for being Cav. He is the least problem in cycling and in fact one of the most 'positive' aspects of cycling currently. He has a talent and it is great for him to not to be afraid to acknowledge that, because he walks the walk aswell as talks the talk.

 

[LugHugger]

This is no discussion about HTC being a 2man team, but the fact that Greipel is leaving and HTC ****ing of their star(Cav) which could lead to Cavendish leaving the team thus leaving them without a big star(unless one of their talented young cyclists step up next season as the next big thing)

Exactly, HTC's top 2 UCI point earners are Cavendish and Greipel. They've let one go and the other currently appears to be disaffected. The rest of the teams results, as Hitch rightly points out, are 4 GT stage wins (4/40+ non-sprint finishes is ordinary for HTC), 2 stage races ( the ToC? while everybody else's eye's were on the prize in Italy. The Eneco tour? A good result agreed but again in line with expectations). Velits GC result was their stand out result excepting the sprinters.

Given the size of the team budget, imo the rest of the results have been ordinary or average. The team currently lies in 6th place in the UCI rankings. So, HTC have schooled nobody outside of the lead out train.

 

[abbaskip]

Obviously Bob doesnt care Cav's leaving. Cav is too expensive. HTC has heaps of talents. It is easy for them to bring up a new 'Cavendish'.

Haha, I'm not the worlds biggest Cavendish fan, but I don't imagine you can just 'bring up another Cav'...His record, at a similar age/stage in his career, is incomparable as a sprinter.

 

[The Hitch]

Exactly, HTC's top 2 UCI point earners are Cavendish and Greipel. They've let one go and the other currently appears to be disaffected. The rest of the teams results, as Hitch rightly points out, are 4 GT stage wins (4/40+ non-sprint finishes is ordinary for HTC), 2 stage races ( the ToC? while everybody else's eye's were on the prize in Italy. The Eneco tour? A good result agreed but again in line with expectations). Velits GC result was their stand out result excepting the sprinters.

Given the size of the team budget, imo the rest of the results have been ordinary or average. The team currently lies in 6th place in the UCI rankings. So, HTC have schooled nobody outside of the lead out train.

The UCI team rankings randomly counts some races but not others. In the CQ rankings HTC crush everyone else. 1st by a mile. SO they have schooled, well everybody.

And once again. If you want to take out the 2 top riders from 1 team, you have to take out the 2 top riders from ALL THE OTHER TEAMS, you plank.

SO take Nibali and Basso from Liquigas. Take Contador and Vino from Astana. Take Gilbert and VDB from OPL. Take Cancellara and Schleck from Saxobank. Take Rodriguez and Pozato away from Katusha. Take Menchov and Freire away from Rabo. Take Hushovd and Sastre away from Cervello. Take LLS and Arroyo from Caisse. Take Anton and Samu from Euskatel. Take Farrar and Ryder from Garmin. Take Gadret and Roche from Agr. Take Voeckler and Fédrigo from BBox. Take Moinard and Moncoutie from Cofidis. Take Boonen and Chavanel from Quickstep. Take Pettachi and Bole from Lampre. Take Hutarovich and Cassar from FDJ. Take Scarponi from androni. Take Mosquera and Garcia from Xacebo- Galicia

Since you are so keen to take riders away from a team and then proclaim the team to have underperformed, please tell me which of these teams come close to a Gt podium, a stage race, a win of any sort?

All these teams should quit cycling under your logic

 

[ingsve]

Going back to the original topic of Cavendish current contract and him wanting to renew itt already. How bad can it actually be? He extended his contract in late 2008 to last until 2011 and by that time he had already won 6 GT stages and had 16 wins total that year and 12 the year before so it's not like he's got anything like a neo pro salary. He probably makes more money than 95% of riders out there already so I don't think he really has that much to complain about. Sure his market value has gone up but not by the huge amounts that people seem to think.

Since he also is the one winning a lot of races he'll always be there to get a cut of the prize money which over a whole year would be a fairly sizeable bonus on top of his salary.

 

[El Pistolero]

The UCI team rankings randomly counts some races but not others. In the CQ rankings HTC crush everyone else. 1st by a mile. SO they have schooled, well everybody.

And once again. If you want to take out the 2 top riders from 1 team, you have to take out the 2 top riders from ALL THE OTHER TEAMS, you plank.

SO take Nibali and Basso from Liquigas. Take Contador and Vino from Astana. Take Gilbert and VDB from OPL. Take Cancellara and Schleck from Saxobank. Take Rodriguez and Pozato away from Katusha. Take Menchov and Freire away from Rabo. Take Hushovd and Sastre away from Cervello. Take LLS and Arroyo from Caisse. Take Anton and Samu from Euskatel. Take Farrar and Ryder from Garmin. Take Gadret and Roche from Agr. Take Voeckler and Fédrigo from BBox. Take Moinard and Moncoutie from Cofidis. Take Boonen and Chavanel from Quickstep. Take Pettachi and Bole from Lampre. Take Hutarovich and Cassar from FDJ. Take Scarponi from androni. Take Mosquera and Garcia from Xacebo- Galicia

Since you are so keen to take riders away from a team and then proclaim the team to have underperformed, please tell me which of these teams come close to a Gt podium, a stage race, a win of any sort?

All these teams should quit cycling under your logic

Yes, and Astana could have send Contador to all the crap races in the world and they would've gotten more points then if he prepared for the Tour. Points, points, points are quite meaningless. Astana's Tour win(which they will probably lose, but that's clinics stuff) trumps HTC their entire season.

 

[sublimit]

Haha, I'm not the worlds biggest Cavendish fan, but I don't imagine you can just 'bring up another Cav'...His record, at a similar age/stage in his career, is incomparable as a sprinter.

Perhaps they've found a way of cloning another Cav. Another rider guaranteed to hack off most of the other riders and win lots of bike races..

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, and Astana could have send Contador to all the crap races in the world and they would've gotten more points then if he prepared for the Tour. Points, points, points are quite meaningless. Astana's Tour win(which they will probably lose, but that's clinics stuff) trumps HTC their entire season.

For the July crowd, yes the Tour de France 1st place is worth more than anything else in cycling. For cycling fans, the Tour is the most prestigious race but it does NOT, under any circumstances, singlehandidly, trump the rest of the cycling season.

If so, why do teams who dont ride for the Tour even bother to turn up.

What about your beloved Gilbert. He doesnt ride the tour. Under your logic hes crap. Who cares about Amstel Gold, when all that matters is the Tour. Under your logic Menchovs podium alone trumps Gilberts entire career past or future.

 

[Arnout]

The UCI team rankings randomly counts some races but not others. In the CQ rankings HTC crush everyone else. 1st by a mile. SO they have schooled, well everybody.

And once again. If you want to take out the 2 top riders from 1 team, you have to take out the 2 top riders from ALL THE OTHER TEAMS, you plank.

SO take Nibali and Basso from Liquigas. Take Contador and Vino from Astana. Take Gilbert and VDB from OPL. Take Cancellara and Schleck from Saxobank. Take Rodriguez and Pozato away from Katusha. Take Menchov and Freire away from Rabo. Take Hushovd and Sastre away from Cervello. Take LLS and Arroyo from Caisse. Take Anton and Samu from Euskatel. Take Farrar and Ryder from Garmin. Take Gadret and Roche from Agr. Take Voeckler and Fédrigo from BBox. Take Moinard and Moncoutie from Cofidis. Take Boonen and Chavanel from Quickstep. Take Pettachi and Bole from Lampre. Take Hutarovich and Cassar from FDJ. Take Scarponi from androni. Take Mosquera and Garcia from Xacebo- Galicia

Since you are so keen to take riders away from a team and then proclaim the team to have underperformed, please tell me which of these teams come close to a Gt podium, a stage race, a win of any sort?

All these teams should quit cycling under your logic

CQranking overestimates the small races though.

 

[El Pistolero]

For the July crowd, yes the Tour de France 1st place is worth more than anything else in cycling. For cycling fans, the Tour is the most prestigious race but it does NOT, under any circumstances, singlehandidly, trump the rest of the cycling season.

If so, why do teams who dont ride for the Tour even bother to turn up.

What about your beloved Gilbert. He doesnt ride the tour. Under your logic hes crap. Who cares about Amstel Gold, when all that matters is the Tour. Under your logic Menchovs podium alone trumps Gilberts entire career past or future.

So, what classic did HTC win again?

Probably the "We drop out of this race half way because we want to prepare for the ronde van Vlaanderen" race.

A victory at the Tour is better then anything HTC and Lotto achieved this season. I don't know how you can argue against that. I didn't say anything about other races being crap, but a Tour win is better then what HTC achieved in their entire season in a sponsor point of view.

For the cycling fans HTC didn't win any monumental classics, they didn't win any prestigious one week stage races, they only won one semi classic, they didn't win any Grand Tours, etc

They send some of their best cyclists to the smallest races there are. It's not hard to take wins then. I've seen Velits doing work for Cavendish at the Vuelta. Disgusting really.