Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Pricey_sky]

Agree with what's been said above, that stage 2 of the Dauphine was probably the only time we have seen both Froome and Contador almost on peak form together, it just makes it all the more frustrating they both crashed out of the Tour. Both were obviously quite a way off their peaks for Andalucia but it was still a race both wanted to really win to put down an early marker.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Let me get this straight. Which part exactly does piss you off? The part of your sentence before "while" or the part after it?

I've made it clear several times that it's those two parts together that piss me off. If that is too hard to understand then I've got nothing more to add.

'm just messing with you, obviously, but seriously, it pisses me off how all those times Froome finished minutes and minutes behind Contador simply because he was in horrific shape are just disregarded. You keep saying Contador has never owned Froome. Of course he has, numerous times. Not Froome in top shape of course, but neither has Froome owned Contador in top shape for that matter.

You are making a big deal of Froome dropping Contador every now and then while there is always an excuse for Froome when Contador crushes him. That's what pisses me off.

2. that is exactly my point, "oh Froome kicked Alberto's ass on Ventoux and in Ruta del Sol blah blah BUT we must disregard all the occasions Froome finished minutes behind Alberto".

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

Let me get this straight. Which part exactly does piss you off? The part of your sentence before "while" or the part after it?

I've made it clear several times that it's those two parts together that piss me off. If that is too hard to understand then I've got nothing more to add.

'm just messing with you, obviously, but seriously, it pisses me off how all those times Froome finished minutes and minutes behind Contador simply because he was in horrific shape are just disregarded. You keep saying Contador has never owned Froome. Of course he has, numerous times. Not Froome in top shape of course, but neither has Froome owned Contador in top shape for that matter.

You are making a big deal of Froome dropping Contador every now and then while there is always an excuse for Froome when Contador crushes him. That's what pisses me off.

2. that is exactly my point, "oh Froome kicked Alberto's ass on Ventoux and in Ruta del Sol blah blah BUT we must disregard all the occasions Froome finished minutes behind Alberto".

It is not hard to understand at all.
I was trying to break down your sentence into more debatable units so that we could constructively discuss on it. But as I see that is almost impossible.
Anyway. My response to all your concerns lies in my previous comment.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

That's an interesting discussion (appropriate comparisons) so let's return to that

Andalucia is the best indicator we have.
End of story.

The Dauphine 2014 Stage 2, one of the greatest races in recent memory, was a better indicator, though I agree with you that Andalucia is indicative.

IMHO: Andalucia, Dauphine 2014 (before the injury), Vuelta 2012 (first half), Vuelta 2014, The whole 2013. In that order.

The best indicator would be if both were the same percentage off their absolute peak form. ie if at some race Froome was 90% and Contador 65% then the result and any gaps that occurred would be less indicative regarding the unknown of great interest, their peak form, than if Froome was 40% and Contador 50%.

What's the argument with Andalucia being more indicative than Dauphine 2014 stages 1 and 2? And Vuelta 2012>Vuelta 2014? Here's the argument for Dauphine being the most indicative thus far:

They both had one major target last year. The Tour. Thus, as we get close to the Tour, their form converges to their peak form. Sameness in objectives and temporal closeness to the Tour means the percentage off their peak they were at that point is probably similar. Probably, but then again, in the past (eg Armstrong, Contador) and the present (eg Nibali), we saw some extreme changes in form even between the Dauphine and Tour, so even here it's hard to tell.

The argument for Vuelta 2014 being indicative is similar. Same objective (win the Vuelta), similar preparation (hampered by crashes). The complication is that Froome seems to respond very badly to crashes and injuries and that he might have been much farther off his peak as a result. Vuelta 2012 was Contador coming back from a ban and Froome arriving after having to drag Brad around France and the Olympics. Very uninformative imo.

Andalucia, being that far off their main objectives (and those being different) can only be very indicative if they both were targetting it. Which may well be the case.

I agree with you on the Dauphine part. Now that I think about it, Dauphine should come prior to Ruta del Sol.
In last year's Vuelta they both came back from an injury, true, but judging from the way Froome was racing, he didn't seem to be on top form.
I think the way of racing must be taken into consideration as well. Otherwise your argument in Vuelta 2014 can be similarly applied to the Tour 2013 as well. Both targeting the biggest race of the year. Similar preparations race-wise etc.

P.S. What is your ideal comparison race list?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

It is not hard to understand at all.
I was trying to break down your sentence into more debatable units so that we could constructively discuss on it. But as I see that is almost impossible.
Anyway. My response to all your concerns lies in my previous comment.

But by breaking down my sentence, you don't address my point. The two elements are related and cannot be seen as seperate issues. I don't have an issue with 1. people hailing Froome for crushing Contador or 2. people making up excuses for Froome. I have an issue with people hailing Froome for crushing Contador regardless of the circumstances, while when Contador crushes Froome it is disregarded because Froome was either injured or ill or in shitty shape in general.
My point is, people in this thread claim Froome dealt some heavy blows to Contador, while Contador only dropped Froome on a few occasions by a few seconds. By saying this, they ignore the fact that Contador absolutely crushed Froome several times, with Froome finishing minutes behind. As SeriousSam noted, this may be because when Contador is in bad shape, he is still good enough to finish top 5/limit the damage, whereas Froome completely blows. Contador just has a better base. Does this mean Froome was in worse shape than Contador on the occasions they got dropped, ergo it is justified to disregard those moments in Froome's case but not in Contador's? I would say, "no".

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I agree with you on the Dauphine part. Now that I think about it, Dauphine should come prior to Ruta del Sol.
In last year's Vuelta they both came back from an injury, true, but judging from the way Froome was racing, he didn't seem to be on top form.
I think the way of racing must be taken into consideration as well. Otherwise your argument in Vuelta 2014 can be similarly applied to the Tour 2013 as well. Both targeting the biggest race of the year. Similar preparations race-wise etc.

P.S. What is your ideal comparison race list?

Do you think, Contador was in top form during the 2014 Vuelta?

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

I agree with you on the Dauphine part. Now that I think about it, Dauphine should come prior to Ruta del Sol.
In last year's Vuelta they both came back from an injury, true, but judging from the way Froome was racing, he didn't seem to be on top form.
I think the way of racing must be taken into consideration as well. Otherwise your argument in Vuelta 2014 can be similarly applied to the Tour 2013 as well. Both targeting the biggest race of the year. Similar preparations race-wise etc.

P.S. What is your ideal comparison race list?

Do you think, Contador was in top form during the 2014 Vuelta?

No I don't. But I think he was better recovered and more in shape than Froome.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I agree with you on the Dauphine part. Now that I think about it, Dauphine should come prior to Ruta del Sol.
In last year's Vuelta they both came back from an injury, true, but judging from the way Froome was racing, he didn't seem to be on top form.
I think the way of racing must be taken into consideration as well. Otherwise your argument in Vuelta 2014 can be similarly applied to the Tour 2013 as well. Both targeting the biggest race of the year. Similar preparations race-wise etc.

P.S. What is your ideal comparison race list?

Do you think, Contador was in top form during the 2014 Vuelta?

No I don't. But I think he was better recovered and more in shape than Froome.

The opposite would be more logical, but fair enough, it is your opinion after all

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

I agree with you on the Dauphine part. Now that I think about it, Dauphine should come prior to Ruta del Sol.
In last year's Vuelta they both came back from an injury, true, but judging from the way Froome was racing, he didn't seem to be on top form.
I think the way of racing must be taken into consideration as well. Otherwise your argument in Vuelta 2014 can be similarly applied to the Tour 2013 as well. Both targeting the biggest race of the year. Similar preparations race-wise etc.

P.S. What is your ideal comparison race list?

Do you think, Contador was in top form during the 2014 Vuelta?

No I don't. But I think he was better recovered and more in shape than Froome.

The opposite would be more logical, but fair enough, it is your opinion after all

Would you have the decency to explain why?
And above all, do you have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks like when he races?

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Ataraxus wrote:

And above all, do you have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks like when he races?[/quote]
______
I do. He looks like chaos limbs theory while staring at his stem and going Very, Very Fast.

EDIT:Obviously I messed up editting out all the quotes.....

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Would you have the decency to explain why?
And above all, do you have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks like when he races?

Because Froome dropped out of the Tour earlier than Contador, and because a wrist injury does not prevent you from training on the rollers, while a leg injury does.

And yes, I have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks. If you read the conversation again, you may notice I never claimed Froome was on top form at the Vuelta. I also have an even clearer image of what a top form Contador looks like, and I can assure you, he looked nothing like that at the 2014 Vuelta.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

Would you have the decency to explain why?
And above all, do you have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks like when he races?

Because Froome dropped out of the Tour earlier than Contador, and because a wrist injury does not prevent you from training on the rollers, while a leg injury does.

And yes, I have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks. If you read the conversation again, you may notice I never claimed Froome was on top form at the Vuelta. I also have an even clearer image of what a top form Contador looks like, and I can assure you, he looked nothing like that at the 2014 Vuelta.

A post-ban top form Contador doesn't differ very much from the Vuelta 2014 IMHO. Anyways.
Where do you think the post-ban Contador had his best shape (which race, which months)?

Edit. You know you could save us all this time if you mention which race is the top shape ideal medium of comparison. But for some reasons you always keep avoiding that topic.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

Would you have the decency to explain why?
And above all, do you have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks like when he races?

Because Froome dropped out of the Tour earlier than Contador, and because a wrist injury does not prevent you from training on the rollers, while a leg injury does.

And yes, I have a clear image of how a top form Froome looks. If you read the conversation again, you may notice I never claimed Froome was on top form at the Vuelta. I also have an even clearer image of what a top form Contador looks like, and I can assure you, he looked nothing like that at the 2014 Vuelta.

Another thing here. So we somehow came into agreement that both of them weren't in top shape. Let's leave the Vuelta 2014 aside and analyze other races were both of them were in better form, shall we ?

 

[Pricey_sky]

Problem is apart from last years Dauphine stage 2 I don't think we've had a battle between the 2 riders where both are close to their peak yet. Let's hope that changes at this years Tour although Contadors Giro bid I think may scupper that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

A post-ban top form Contador doesn't differ very much from the Vuelta 2014 IMHO. Anyways.
Where do you think the post-ban Contador had his best shape (which race, which months)?

Best shape? Probably July 2014. But because we didn't see it, I'd say spring 2014 and Vuelta 2014. But it was clear from his spring that he would be in super shape in July. Vuelta wasn't "super shape".

Edit. You know you could save us all this time if you mention which race is the top shape ideal medium of comparison. But for some reasons you always keep avoiding that topic.

Dauphiné 2014

 

[hrotha]

Obviously Froome at 80% of his peak form somehow produces performances at only 60% of his potential because [redacted]

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Another thing here. So we somehow came into agreement that both of them weren't in top shape. Let's leave the Vuelta 2014 aside and analyze other races were both of them were in better form, shall we ?

No, because as SeriousSam said, there are no occasions when they were both in top shape. So we should look at the races they were in similar shape. Which are Dauphiné 2014, Vuelta 2014 and to a lesser extent Ruta del Sol, in my opinion.

 

[TMP402]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-returns-to-racing-at-flche-wallonne

“I think it’s pretty straightforward for him,” Sky’s Rod Ellingworth told Cyclingnews when asked why Froome had opted to take part in Flèche Wallonne.

“One is [because of] the Tour” [the Flèche Wallonne route covers the same finale as stage 2 of the 2015 Tour de France – ed.]. “Two, it’s a WorldTour race and Chris likes this race, and three, he’s had a good training block, and a good day of racing before he goes into Romandie is important.”

I wonder what other people make of that.

It seems an odd thing to have as a motivation for Froome: if it was a Valverde or Rodriguez situation and he had a chance of winning the overall standings of the WT, I would understand that comment, but Froome is in no way a contender for tomorrow, and will probably do well to finish in the top forty... for reference, when he last raced in FW in 2010, he was 119th, 11 mins behind the winner, and who knows how he's feeling after the bizarre Catalunya performance.

 

[MatParker117]

Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-returns-to-racing-at-flche-wallonne

“I think it’s pretty straightforward for him,” Sky’s Rod Ellingworth told Cyclingnews when asked why Froome had opted to take part in Flèche Wallonne.

“One is [because of] the Tour” [the Flèche Wallonne route covers the same finale as stage 2 of the 2015 Tour de France – ed.]. “Two, it’s a WorldTour race and Chris likes this race, and three, he’s had a good training block, and a good day of racing before he goes into Romandie is important.”

I wonder what other people make of that.

It seems an odd thing to have as a motivation for Froome: if it was a Valverde or Rodriguez situation and he had a chance of winning the overall standings of the WT, I would understand that comment, but Froome is in no way a contender for tomorrow, and will probably do well to finish in the top forty... for reference, when he last raced in FW in 2010, he was 119th, 11 mins behind the winner, and who knows how he's feeling after the bizarre Catalunya performance.

GB is going for another Worlds win with Cav and need scoring riders for Richmond. Pete Kennaugh contested some Dauphine spirnts in 2013 for the same reason.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-returns-to-racing-at-flche-wallonne

“I think it’s pretty straightforward for him,” Sky’s Rod Ellingworth told Cyclingnews when asked why Froome had opted to take part in Flèche Wallonne.

“One is [because of] the Tour” [the Flèche Wallonne route covers the same finale as stage 2 of the 2015 Tour de France – ed.]. “Two, it’s a WorldTour race and Chris likes this race, and three, he’s had a good training block, and a good day of racing before he goes into Romandie is important.”

I wonder what other people make of that.

It seems an odd thing to have as a motivation for Froome: if it was a Valverde or Rodriguez situation and he had a chance of winning the overall standings of the WT, I would understand that comment, but Froome is in no way a contender for tomorrow, and will probably do well to finish in the top forty... for reference, when he last raced in FW in 2010, he was 119th, 11 mins behind the winner, and who knows how he's feeling after the bizarre Catalunya performance.

As we all know, he had severe badzilla back then, rendering any result irrelevant. Results prior to 2011 are just not indicative.

He's had a good training block? This sounds ominous. I now expect Froome to be top 5

 

[Electress]

Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-returns-to-racing-at-flche-wallonne

“I think it’s pretty straightforward for him,” Sky’s Rod Ellingworth told Cyclingnews when asked why Froome had opted to take part in Flèche Wallonne.

“One is [because of] the Tour” [the Flèche Wallonne route covers the same finale as stage 2 of the 2015 Tour de France – ed.]. “Two, it’s a WorldTour race and Chris likes this race, and three, he’s had a good training block, and a good day of racing before he goes into Romandie is important.”

I wonder what other people make of that.

It seems an odd thing to have as a motivation for Froome: if it was a Valverde or Rodriguez situation and he had a chance of winning the overall standings of the WT, I would understand that comment, but Froome is in no way a contender for tomorrow, and will probably do well to finish in the top forty... for reference, when he last raced in FW in 2010, he was 119th, 11 mins behind the winner, and who knows how he's feeling after the bizarre Catalunya performance.

This does seem peculiar. I don't really know what to make of Froome this year at all.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-returns-to-racing-at-flche-wallonne

“I think it’s pretty straightforward for him,” Sky’s Rod Ellingworth told Cyclingnews when asked why Froome had opted to take part in Flèche Wallonne.

“One is [because of] the Tour” [the Flèche Wallonne route covers the same finale as stage 2 of the 2015 Tour de France – ed.]. “Two, it’s a WorldTour race and Chris likes this race, and three, he’s had a good training block, and a good day of racing before he goes into Romandie is important.”

I wonder what other people make of that.

It seems an odd thing to have as a motivation for Froome: if it was a Valverde or Rodriguez situation and he had a chance of winning the overall standings of the WT, I would understand that comment, but Froome is in no way a contender for tomorrow, and will probably do well to finish in the top forty... for reference, when he last raced in FW in 2010, he was 119th, 11 mins behind the winner, and who knows how he's feeling after the bizarre Catalunya performance.

I think the main reason he's riding is because it's used in the Tour, it can never hurt to get his eye in and have a go with Romandie next week.

 

[Miburo]

Froome can win this, you never known with this guy. It would be hilarous if he won it in his style

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

A post-ban top form Contador doesn't differ very much from the Vuelta 2014 IMHO. Anyways.
Where do you think the post-ban Contador had his best shape (which race, which months)?

Best shape? Probably July 2014. But because we didn't see it, I'd say spring 2014 and Vuelta 2014. But it was clear from his spring that he would be in super shape in July. Vuelta wasn't "super shape".

Edit. You know you could save us all this time if you mention which race is the top shape ideal medium of comparison. But for some reasons you always keep avoiding that topic.

Dauphiné 2014

Excellent. And by Dauphine I assume you mean the first two stages.
About stage 2 I've seen people in this forum finding excuses in the type of: "Froome has peaked too early and Contador is not at his full potential yet. Contador generally doesn't have the form in the Dauphine that's why he got beaten. Etc. "
Now if people can find excuses about what we call the best comparison medium of peak forms, they have the right to find possibly even more (valid) excuses in the other mediums.
I'm not saying those excuses in Dauphine stage 2 don't stand. I'm not pissed off either. Why do you have to be for the other cases?

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Froome can win this, you never known with this guy. It would be hilarous if he won it in his style

What, Fleche? Froome? Come on. Did Wiggo won PR? Will Porte win Giro? The answer to all is no.