Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Ataraxus]

Re:

Even before he dropped what seemed to be a strong Contador hungry for an early stage race victory like a sack of potatoes, he was the favourite to win the Tour. He still is. Without mysterious illnesses or crashes, when he can prepare as he wants to and according to plan, he still seems to be the very best climber in the world.

If you have noticed Froome has very progressive attack styles.
1- Riding off the wheel (Ax-3)
2- Spinning while seated if riding off the wheel isn't effective (Ventoux Contador)
3- Crazy 30 seconds attacks if spinning while seated isn't enough (Quintessentially Dauphine)
4- Bang! Crazy 30 seconds attack in steeper gradients (Andalucia).
Number 4 is limited edition only for Contador

Rumours are that he has been working on a new ferocious type of attack with Kerrison, to be unleashed on his unsuspecting opponents at the first MTF of the Tour. Sprinting all the way up, just one big and permanent attack, perhaps? We'll see.

Rumor has it that Slongo somehow is trying to sneak into SKY upper management to update his info about Froome's new attacks figures so that he can simulate them with Nibali prior to the Tour.
They say last year's figures were all matched by Nibali....only in the simulations unfortunately

 

[elfed68]

Re: Re:

Even before he dropped what seemed to be a strong Contador hungry for an early stage race victory like a sack of potatoes, he was the favourite to win the Tour. He still is. Without mysterious illnesses or crashes, when he can prepare as he wants to and according to plan, he still seems to be the very best climber in the world.

If you have noticed Froome has very progressive attack styles.
1- Riding off the wheel (Ax-3)
2- Spinning while seated if riding off the wheel isn't effective (Ventoux Contador)
3- Crazy 30 seconds attacks if spinning while seated isn't enough (Quintessentially Dauphine)
4- Bang! Crazy 30 seconds attack in steeper gradients (Andalucia).
Number 4 is limited edition only for Contador

Rumours are that he has been working on a new ferocious type of attack with Kerrison, to be unleashed on his unsuspecting opponents at the first MTF of the Tour. Sprinting all the way up, just one big and permanent attack, perhaps? We'll see.

Rumor has it that Slongo somehow is trying to sneak into SKY upper management to update his info about Froome's new attacks figures so that he can simulate them with Nibali prior to the Tour.
They say last year's figures were all matched by Nibali....only in the simulations unfortunately

Which propelled him to a well deserved third, sorry, first place.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I can see why you posted that picture (cough<<blind fangirlism>> cough)
but I can't see the relevance.
Froome was climbing at his own pace so obviously you won't find him in the picture. He outpaced Contador in the last 4k of that stage and we have discussed that
In my picture Contador tried to follow but couldn't. Not only he was dropped like a sack, he partly blew himself as well (Lost 29 seconds in less than 2k. Only 20 seconds difference to domestique Nieve in the end)

P.S. Contador's move in Hazallanas was admirable and enjoyable. In honesty I enjoyed it very much.
But so was Del Piero's goal in Uefa Champions League final 20 or so years ago. In the end it was Borussia Dortmund who won the game (sorry for the soccer interlude)

It is very simple. Contador's highs may not be as ridiculously high as Froome's. But he is a thousand times as consistent. Froome is up and down, up and down. Contador, even on bad form, will still finish top 5 in a stage race. And in GTs, he either wins, or finishes besides the podium. What does that mean? That if he is good enough to win, he will find a way to win. Froome, on a bad day, can just as well disappear from the top 20. As good as a climber he is, he won only 1 GT. He is way too fragile and inconsistent. For this reason alone, Froome will NEVER be the rider Alberto is.

 

[SeriousSam]

What look ... He's looking at his shoulder. Give it another few seconds and he will be playing mind games with his stem.

You know pretty well what he's looking at. And its not his shoulder.
It's the damage instead [/quote]

Yes the damage to ,,,,,I got nothing [/quote]

You got nothing?
You got a suffering red and yellow silhouette 20meters back[/quote]
20m?, I can't even see Fwoomey in this pic

JK [/quote]

I can see why you posted that picture (cough<<blind fangirlism>> cough)
but I can't see the relevance.
Froome was climbing at his own pace so obviously you won't find him in the picture. He outpaced Contador in the last 4k of that stage and we have discussed that
In my picture Contador tried to follow but couldn't. Not only he was dropped like a sack, he partly blew himself as well (Lost 29 seconds in less than 2k. Only 20 seconds difference to domestique Nieve in the end)

P.S. Contador's move in Hazallanas was admirable and enjoyable. In honesty I enjoyed it very much.
But so was Del Piero's goal in Uefa Champions League final 20 or so years ago. In the end it was Borussia Dortmund who won the game (sorry for the soccer interlude)[/quote]

It has to be dispiriting when your nemsis puts in one of those insane attacks and you try to hang on until you realise that if you don't slow down right now you're going to explode. You slow down, try to gather your senses and you see the Alien 50 meters up the road looking back before spinning on to victory. You have to be thinking, is my best level actually good enough to hold this ferocious climber's wheel?

Contador did have success against Froome, notably in the Vuelta. But he has never owned Froome like Froome owned him on various occasions. When he did beat him, he followed Froome's wheels all the way and then gained 15 seconds in a last km uphill sprint. He has never annihilated Froome in a duel like Froome annihilated him.

Froome is the best climber in the world at his peak. It is disturbing how quickly he can lose form and how low he falls when not at his best, but at his best, we have yet to see someone climb at his level in recent years.

 

[LaFlorecita]

It has to be dispiriting when your nemsis puts in one of those insane attacks and you try to hang on until you realise that if you don't slow down right now you're going to explode. You slow down, try to gather your senses and you see the Alien 50 meters up the road looking back before spinning on to victory. You have to be thinking, is my best level actually good enough to hold this ferocious climber's wheel?

Contador did have success against Froome, notably in the Vuelta. But he has never owned Froome like Froome owned him on various occasions. When he did beat him, he followed Froome's wheels all the way and then gained 15 seconds in a last km uphill sprint. He has never annihilated Froome in a duel like Froome annihilated him.

Froome is the best climber in the world at his peak. It is disturbing how quickly he can lose form and how low he falls when not at his best, but at his best, we have yet to see someone climb at his level in recent years.

[/quote]

"¿Pero donde están los sky?"

I'm just messing with you, obviously, but seriously, it pisses me off how all those times Froome finished minutes and minutes behind Contador simply because he was in horrific shape are just disregarded. You keep saying Contador has never owned Froome. Of course he has, numerous times. Not Froome in top shape of course, but neither has Froome owned Contador in top shape for that matter.

 

[Miburo]

The best indicator we've is stage 2 of the dauphine 2014. That's the best, nothing else. The stage fleur is referring to obviously can't be used since froome crashed, as she said.

But even that dauphine isn't a great one either for the simple reason that contador never was any good in that race.
In 2009 he couldn't drop evans and piti, one month later he dropped anyone he wanted.
In 2010 brajkovic was even with him on the alpe. 1 month later only andy could follow him.
Dauphine 2007 is another example, he couldn't follow moureaux and evans. He was the best of the rest in that dauphine.

Each time they faced each other there was a legit excuse for not being at his best or just too early in the season to be truly indicating.

July 2015 then? Not really since contador has done the giro.

Will we ever know it? Maybe, maybe not. Many has different opinions, some still believe after all, andy prime can follow AC at his prime.

 

[sir fly]

Andalucia is the best indicator we have.
End of story.

 

[SeriousSam]

This is the very reason why I'm so disappointed Contador does the Giro, although it's understandable if he only wants to race 2 more years. Beating Porte and Co is much, much easier than beating Froome, Quintana and Nibali.

Ever since the dawg emerged with his ludicrous performances, I have been wondering whether he has has succeeded Contador as the best climber in the word. It seemed 2014 would have finally settled this when both seemed to be in terrific form but then crashes ruined everything.

LaFlorecita, would it not satisfy you immensely if just once, Contador did to Froome what Froome has done to Contador on more than one occasion? A Ventoux?

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

Andalucia is the best indicator we have.
End of story.

The Dauphine 2014 Stage 2, one of the greatest races in recent memory, was a better indicator, though I agree with you that Andalucia is indicative.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

LaFlorecita, would it not satisfy you immensely if just once, Contador did to Froome what Froome has done to Contador on more than one occasion? A Ventoux?

I don't give a crap about Froome, as long as Alberto wins I am satisfied. Don't care if it's by 1 second or 20 minutes. There are performances similar to Ventoux, by Alberto, but Froome was either ill or at home with Badzhilla or injured or a nobody. See, this is what I said earlier. Alberto has absolutely crushed Froome many times, but it is disregarded because Froome was crappy. Why the hell should we disregard Dauphiné stage 8 but not Ventoux.

 

[Ataraxus]

It has to be dispiriting when your nemsis puts in one of those insane attacks and you try to hang on until you realise that if you don't slow down right now you're going to explode. You slow down, try to gather your senses and you see the Alien 50 meters up the road looking back before spinning on to victory. You have to be thinking, is my best level actually good enough to hold this ferocious climber's wheel?

Contador did have success against Froome, notably in the Vuelta. But he has never owned Froome like Froome owned him on various occasions. When he did beat him, he followed Froome's wheels all the way and then gained 15 seconds in a last km uphill sprint. He has never annihilated Froome in a duel like Froome annihilated him.

Froome is the best climber in the world at his peak. It is disturbing how quickly he can lose form and how low he falls when not at his best, but at his best, we have yet to see someone climb at his level in recent years.

"¿Pero donde están los sky?"

I'm just messing with you, obviously, but seriously, it pisses me off how all those times Froome finished minutes and minutes behind Contador simply because he was in horrific shape are just disregarded. You keep saying Contador has never owned Froome. Of course he has, numerous times. Not Froome in top shape of course, but neither has Froome owned Contador in top shape for that matter.[/quote]

C'mon LaFlo!
The biggest humiliation among top guns in the past decade was the whipping that Contador's got in Ventoux 2013. But nobody is mentioning it here because connoisseurs are aware of the form that Contador had that year. The photo of Finhaut-Emmosson you posted is even a less suitable medium of comparison than Ventoux 2013 because Froome was injured. Injury<<lack of form<< peak form IMHO

 

[LaFlorecita]

Seriously, Ataxarus,
1. learn to quote properly
2. that is exactly my point, "oh Froome kicked Alberto's ass on Ventoux and in Ruta del Sol blah blah BUT we must disregard all the occasions Froome finished minutes behind Alberto".

So Alberto, is worse than Froome, because he is actually consistently near the top unlike Froome????

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

Andalucia is the best indicator we have.
End of story.

The Dauphine 2014 Stage 2, one of the greatest races in recent memory, was a better indicator, though I agree with you that Andalucia is indicative.

IMHO: Andalucia, Dauphine 2014 (before the injury), Vuelta 2012 (first half), Vuelta 2014, The whole 2013. In that order.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re:

Seriously, Ataxarus,
1. learn to quote properly
2. that is exactly my point, "oh Froome kicked Alberto's ass on Ventoux and in Ruta del Sol blah blah BUT we must disregard all the occasions Froome finished minutes behind Alberto".

So Alberto, is worse than Froome, because he is actually consistently near the top unlike Froome????

Nobody is saying Froome is better than Contador. And I am not discussing who is the best. We must come to agreeable definitions of the term first.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Contador is the king. Luckily for us he is racing in top performance for several years now, so that many of us can enjoy watching animated races by him. And luckily for us, he is still maintaining that fighting spirit at close distance. (If Contador had attacked like Froome did in Andalucia, Froome wouldn't have followed but would have kept a steady pace instead. And the fight would have proceeded at a distance just like the day before in Hazallanas. )
But being the king doesn't necessarily mean you are the strongest.
Now this Froome guy comes along with ugly racing position (IMHO) but with spectacular attacks, dropping opponents with style. I must admit I am enjoying it. What's the big deal??

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Seriously, Ataxarus,
1. learn to quote properly
2. that is exactly my point, "oh Froome kicked Alberto's ass on Ventoux and in Ruta del Sol blah blah BUT we must disregard all the occasions Froome finished minutes behind Alberto".

So Alberto, is worse than Froome, because he is actually consistently near the top unlike Froome????

Nobody is saying Froome is better than Contador. And I am not discussing who is the best. We must come to agreeable definitions of the term first.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Contador is the king. Luckily for us he is racing in top performance for several years now, so that many of us can enjoy watching animated races by him. And luckily for us, he is still maintaining that fighting spirit at close distance. (If Contador had attacked like Froome did in Andalucia, Froome wouldn't have followed but would have kept a steady pace instead. And the fight would have proceeded at a distance just like the day before in Hazallanas. )
But being the king doesn't necessarily mean you are the strongest.
Now this Froome guy comes along with ugly racing position (IMHO) but with spectacular attacks, dropping opponents with style. I must admit I am enjoying it. What's the big deal??

You are making a big deal of Froome dropping Contador every now and then while there is always an excuse for Froome when Contador crushes him. That's what pisses me off.

 

[hrotha]

What kind of person sees they messed up the quote tags in their post and doesn't immediately rush to edit it.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

What kind of person sees they messed up the quote tags in their post and doesn't immediately rush to edit it.

lol to be fair quoting is quite complicated now

 

[DBotero]

Re: Re:

What kind of person sees they messed up the quote tags in their post and doesn't immediately rush to edit it.

lol to be fair quoting is quite complicated now

Seems there is a limit to multi quoting which makes you impossible to respond to someone which already used multi quoting or i don't used properly?

 

[hrotha]

Yeah but that's why you should trim down your post. Even if there was no limit, nobody wants humongous blocks of nested quotes.

Maybe I'm a bit of a neat freak or something.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

You are making a big deal of Froome dropping Contador every now and then while there is always an excuse for Froome when Contador crushes him. That's what pisses me off.

This is a fair point. Contador has been a top 10 climber for a decade and never seems to drop below that level, so the occurrences when he is being beaten when not at his best are somewhat hard to identify because there isn't much variance in his climbing level, whereas Froome is seemingly yoyoing from climbing like Kittel to climbing like Pantani, so it's always obvious.

As a result, we are too quick to dismiss cases where Froome is outclimbed and put perhaps too much emphasis on the cases where Contador is outclimbed, because the latter disguises his lack of peak form with top 5 in the world form.

But still, Froome has inflicted the more memorable and humiliating beatdowns in the last few years, and his best climbing seems to eclipse the best climbing Contador can muster.

 

[Poursuivant]

Re: Re:

[/quote] IMHO: Andalucia, Dauphine 2014 (before the injury), Vuelta 2012 (first half), Vuelta 2014, The whole 2013. In that order.[/quote]

Hmm, I don't know, personally I think the first two stages of the Dauphine 2014 are the biggest indicator because that was when they were both closest to peak form, I think. I know AC doesn't usually excel in the Dauphine, but his 2014 was different, in that he seemed to be in fantastic form the whole year round. He was obviously really good, but I don't think Contador's level at Andalucia, or Froome's was as good as Dauphine 2014. I do think though even though they both said they were at Andalucia for fitness/training etc., that both of them wanted to win A LOT.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

But still, Froome has inflicted the more memorable and humiliating beatdowns in the last few years, and his best climbing seems to eclipse the best climbing Contador can muster.

One example with both on comparable form.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Yeah but that's why you should trim down your post. Even if there was no limit, nobody wants humongous blocks of nested quotes.

Maybe I'm a bit of a neat freak or something.

I agree. I can't stand the giant blocks of nested quotes. They're very messy and completely unnecessary. It's just lazy to not clean up the quotes that don't belong there.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

Seriously, Ataxarus,
1. learn to quote properly
2. that is exactly my point, "oh Froome kicked Alberto's ass on Ventoux and in Ruta del Sol blah blah BUT we must disregard all the occasions Froome finished minutes behind Alberto".

So Alberto, is worse than Froome, because he is actually consistently near the top unlike Froome????

Nobody is saying Froome is better than Contador. And I am not discussing who is the best. We must come to agreeable definitions of the term first.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Contador is the king. Luckily for us he is racing in top performance for several years now, so that many of us can enjoy watching animated races by him. And luckily for us, he is still maintaining that fighting spirit at close distance. (If Contador had attacked like Froome did in Andalucia, Froome wouldn't have followed but would have kept a steady pace instead. And the fight would have proceeded at a distance just like the day before in Hazallanas. )
But being the king doesn't necessarily mean you are the strongest.
Now this Froome guy comes along with ugly racing position (IMHO) but with spectacular attacks, dropping opponents with style. I must admit I am enjoying it. What's the big deal??

You are making a big deal of Froome dropping Contador every now and then while there is always an excuse for Froome when Contador crushes him. That's what pisses me off.

Let me get this straight. Which part exactly does piss you off? The part of your sentence before "while" or the part after it?
As far as the part before "while" is concerned (clearly seen in the armpit sniffing comments), everybody is free to hail riders in their personal threads. You do the same in the Contador thread. In recent times, Froome's spectacular performances happened to be against Contador. If he drops Quintana, Nibali etc. like that, we are going to hail him in a similar fashion. You, as a Contador fangirl, don't have to take it personally.
I must admit, dropping your fiercest opponent is always more special than the other performances. But, if for instance, Quintana will be his closest rival in the future, Froome's performances will gain much more significance against him than the others. To my mind at least.
As the part after "while" is concerned, the same can be said about you as well. I think the most ideal peak form comparisons between Froome and Contador are Andalucia and Dauphine. If Contador supporters find excuses in these races (which they have),then, i think, Froome supporters are completely free to have legit excuses in any of the other races that Contador beat him.
If you don't agree with my thoughts on ideal media of comparison, this subtopic is started and halfway developed in the previous comments. You are free to constructively contribute on it.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

That's an interesting discussion (appropriate comparisons) so let's return to that

Andalucia is the best indicator we have.
End of story.

The Dauphine 2014 Stage 2, one of the greatest races in recent memory, was a better indicator, though I agree with you that Andalucia is indicative.

IMHO: Andalucia, Dauphine 2014 (before the injury), Vuelta 2012 (first half), Vuelta 2014, The whole 2013. In that order.

The best indicator would be if both were the same percentage off their absolute peak form. ie if at some race Froome was 90% and Contador 65% then the result and any gaps that occurred would be less indicative regarding the unknown of great interest, their peak form, than if Froome was 40% and Contador 50%.

What's the argument with Andalucia being more indicative than Dauphine 2014 stages 1 and 2? And Vuelta 2012>Vuelta 2014? Here's the argument for Dauphine being the most indicative thus far:

They both had one major target last year. The Tour. Thus, as we get close to the Tour, their form converges to their peak form. Sameness in objectives and temporal closeness to the Tour means the percentage off their peak they were at that point is probably similar. Probably, but then again, in the past (eg Armstrong, Contador) and the present (eg Nibali), we saw some extreme changes in form even between the Dauphine and Tour, so even here it's hard to tell.

The argument for Vuelta 2014 being indicative is similar. Same objective (win the Vuelta), similar preparation (hampered by crashes). The complication is that Froome seems to respond very badly to crashes and injuries and that he might have been much farther off his peak as a result. Vuelta 2012 was Contador coming back from a ban and Froome arriving after having to drag Brad around France and the Olympics. Very uninformative imo.

Andalucia, being that far off their main objectives (and those being different) can only be very indicative if they both were targetting it. Which may well be the case.