Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

Does the difference in circumstances really matter? With the advances in radio technology they would've been aware of it pretty quickly and if they really practiced what they preached, they would have preferred to not to take advantage of the ride leader's misfortune by continuing with their attack.

The circumstances you previously omitted makes a pretty huge difference!

If someone crashes in response to your attack then sure you can wait and maybe Sky should have, I don't know ... but there's a massive chasm between that and attacking someone precisely because they have had an issue. Not even remotely close to being the same.

Edit: Not to mention it's pretty disingenuous of you to equate the two. If you want to make a point then argue it in good faith at least and lay out all the details.

 

[DanielSong39]

Did anyone stop for Dan Martin?

 

[silvergrenade]

Re:

Did anyone stop for Dan Martin?

1. He wasn't the yellow jersey.
2. It was a descent. Does the race ever stop in a descent?.
3. Did anyone attack once they saw the crash?
4. The only guy who did attack was Bardet(Was it an attack?)
5. It was a crash rather than a mechanical.

 

[rick james]

Re:

50th Yellow Jersey Today.
Equals Jacques Anquetils Record. Chapeau.

Legend of the sport

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Does the difference in circumstances really matter? With the advances in radio technology they would've been aware of it pretty quickly and if they really practiced what they preached, they would have preferred to not to take advantage of the ride leader's misfortune by continuing with their attack.

The circumstances you previously omitted makes a pretty huge difference!

If someone crashes in response to your attack then sure you can wait and maybe Sky should have, I don't know ... but there's a massive chasm between that and attacking someone precisely because they have had an issue. Not even remotely close to being the same.

Edit: Not to mention it's pretty disingenuous of you to equate the two. If you want to make a point then argue it in good faith at least and lay out all the details.

You are steering the argument where you prefer it to go. Mechanical, crash, it is still the race leader being unable to follow the peloton. If your philosophy, as Froome stated is not to take advantage of the race leader's misfortune, then it shouldn't come with asterisks. Froome crashes, Sky and Froome expect the peloton to slow their roll. Froome has a mechanical, they expect the same. Valverde crashes in the leader jersey and Sky continues to drill it with the argument that the race was on.

Everyone that has been on this forum for length of time or similar that I have know the circumstances of the Valverde incident. Those that don't were free to investigate it or ask, as someone did, when it occurred and they were given a link. They can pass their own judgement without your influencing them with your cries of my supposed intended vast deception.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

50th Yellow Jersey Today.
Equals Jacques Anquetils Record. Chapeau.

A fine achievement. But is it fair to say that defending the yellow jersey back in Anquetil's day would have been significantly harder than doing so in this era with the support of the full Sky train?

 

[hazaran]

Re: Re:

You are steering the argument where you prefer it to go. Mechanical, crash, it is still the race leader being unable to follow the peloton. If your philosophy, as Froome stated is not to take advantage of the race leader's misfortune, then it shouldn't come with asterisks. Froome crashes, Sky and Froome expect the peloton to slow their roll. Froome has a mechanical, they expect the same. Valverde crashes in the leader jersey and Sky continues to drill it with the argument that the race was on.

Everyone that has been on this forum for length of time or similar that I have know the circumstances of the Valverde incident. Those that don't were free to investigate it or ask, as someone did, when it occurred and they were given a link. They can pass their own judgement without your influencing them with your cries of my supposed intended vast deception.

It's hard to figure out where to even begin to untangle this nonsense. A crash is not a mechanical. The timeline matters. Froome doesn't expect anyone to wait, he has said so a million times now.

I guess you can always troll in Arus or Portes thread discussing why they waited.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

Does the difference in circumstances really matter? With the advances in radio technology they would've been aware of it pretty quickly and if they really practiced what they preached, they would have preferred to not to take advantage of the ride leader's misfortune by continuing with their attack.

This is one of the most absurd thing I've ever heard about cycling... let's stop racing and go to a beauty contest.

It would be simply ridicolous to stop an attack because the race leader crashed or had a mechanical AFTER the attack has taken place.

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

You are steering the argument where you prefer it to go. Mechanical, crash, it is still the race leader being unable to follow the peloton. If your philosophy, as Froome stated is not to take advantage of the race leader's misfortune, then it shouldn't come with asterisks. Froome crashes, Sky and Froome expect the peloton to slow their roll. Froome has a mechanical, they expect the same. Valverde crashes in the leader jersey and Sky continues to drill it with the argument that the race was on.

Everyone that has been on this forum for length of time or similar that I have know the circumstances of the Valverde incident. Those that don't were free to investigate it or ask, as someone did, when it occurred and they were given a link. They can pass their own judgement without your influencing them with your cries of my supposed intended vast deception.

Dunno mate, seems like such an astounding difference to me. At the very least even if you don't agree you must realise other people would see a difference there so yea I do find your description pretty disingenuous which is just unnecessary. If you want to argue your point let it stand on it's own.

For me and I assume Froome also those two situations don't come under the same "philosophy."

 

[PremierAndrew]

The race wasn't on when Froome had a mechanical. Aru claiming he didnt see Froome's hand go up suggests he agrees it was wrong and so doesn't want to admit to it.

The race was on when Martin and Porte crashed. But anyway, it's about time stage racing takes a leaf from the classics' book and just forget about waiting for riders with mishaps altogether to avoid these kinds of discussions. It's cycling, sh*t happens

 

[TMP402]

51 yellow jerseys, 4th all-time. If he keeps the lead until the end of the race, he'll move into 3rd all-time, overtaking Indurain.

 

[oldcrank]

Re: Re:

50th Yellow Jersey Today.
Equals Jacques Anquetils Record. Chapeau.

A fine achievement. But is it fair to say that defending the yellow jersey back in Anquetil's day would have been significantly harder than doing so in this era with the support of the full Sky train?

Two of Anquetil's tour wins were in the national teams era, won on 10 or 12 man
national teams from France in their home Grande Tour, so no, it would not have been
significantly harder for Anquetil ... Anquetil's other wins were with 10 man Rapha teams,
every bit as strong a team built around their leader as Froomey and Team SKY, and some
of the Anquetil years had a lot of time-trialling kms. compared to the current trend, making it
maybe even easier for a TT specialist like Anquetil to get into Yellow and to stay in Yellow.

 

[tretiak]

Re:

The race wasn't on when Froome had a mechanical. Aru claiming he didnt see Froome's hand go up suggests he agrees it was wrong and so doesn't want to admit to it.

The race was on when Martin and Porte crashed. But anyway, it's about time stage racing takes a leaf from the classics' book and just forget about waiting for riders with mishaps altogether to avoid these kinds of discussions. It's cycling, sh*t happens

Even if the race was on when Froome had a problem, I think the race would have made a paus until Froome was back in the pack (of course not if he is on the ground for several minutes but for a short while).

If riders not would have made a paus they would be hardly critisised by Sky and their phalanx like the UK press.

 

[DanielSong39]

Being a 3-time winner of the Tour de France and being in the yellow jersey comes with its set of privileges. Being able to wave your arm and call time-out whenever you're in difficulty is one of them.

Chris Froome is not the first person to take advantage of the privileges and he won't be the last.

 

[tretiak]

Re:

Being a 3-time winner of the Tour de France and being in the yellow jersey comes with its set of privileges. Being able to wave your arm and call time-out whenever you're in difficulty is one of them.

Chris Froome is not the first person to take advantage of the privileges and he won't be the last.

Lance had the same respect or who is on yor mind?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

50th Yellow Jersey Today.
Equals Jacques Anquetils Record. Chapeau.

A fine achievement. But is it fair to say that defending the yellow jersey back in Anquetil's day would have been significantly harder than doing so in this era with the support of the full Sky train?

Two of Anquetil's tour wins were in the national teams era, won on 10 or 12 man
national teams from France in their home Grande Tour, so no, it would not have been
significantly harder for Anquetil ... Anquetil's other wins were with 10 man Rapha teams,
every bit as strong a team built around their leader as Froomey and Team SKY, and some
of the Anquetil years had a lot of time-trialling kms. compared to the current trend, making it
maybe even easier for a TT specialist like Anquetil to get into Yellow and to stay in Yellow.

You're confusing numbers with strength. You could have 20 domestiques in the 50s and 60s and they couldn't control the race as well as three or four modern Sky domestiques. The difference in strength between leaders and domestiques was so much bigger back then than it is now.

When a rival attacked in the 50s and 60s, the leader had to chase them down himself most of the time on climbs. Froome has five elite climbers at his disposal before he has to fully commit himself.

Not to knock his achievement, which is impressive, just highlighting that it is easier to defend a jersey in the modern era.

 

[tretiak]

And they did not have team cars with tv that showed the competition in real time

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

50th Yellow Jersey Today.
Equals Jacques Anquetils Record. Chapeau.

A fine achievement. But is it fair to say that defending the yellow jersey back in Anquetil's day would have been significantly harder than doing so in this era with the support of the full Sky train?

Two of Anquetil's tour wins were in the national teams era, won on 10 or 12 man
national teams from France in their home Grande Tour, so no, it would not have been
significantly harder for Anquetil ... Anquetil's other wins were with 10 man Rapha teams,
every bit as strong a team built around their leader as Froomey and Team SKY, and some
of the Anquetil years had a lot of time-trialling kms. compared to the current trend, making it
maybe even easier for a TT specialist like Anquetil to get into Yellow and to stay in Yellow.

You're confusing numbers with strength. You could have 20 domestiques in the 50s and 60s and they couldn't control the race as well as three or four modern Sky domestiques. The difference in strength between leaders and domestiques was so much bigger back then than it is now.

When a rival attacked in the 50s and 60s, the leader had to chase them down himself most of the time on climbs. Froome has five elite climbers at his disposal before he has to fully commit himself.

Not to knock his achievement, which is impressive, just highlighting that it is easier to defend a jersey in the modern era.

There's a conversation with Inner ring about this:
https://twitter.com/inrng/status/884985945673609216

I think most would agree that in the modern era it more tougher...
But the real answer can be that its just impossible to compare.

 

[tretiak]

Wattage computer, radio communication and live streaming makes it more easy. Sky is the most calculated Team ever.

 

[tretiak]

A nightmare would be wattage transmition directly to the team car for live analysation.

 

[Vasilis]

Re: Re:

50th Yellow Jersey Today.
Equals Jacques Anquetils Record. Chapeau.

A fine achievement. But is it fair to say that defending the yellow jersey back in Anquetil's day would have been significantly harder than doing so in this era with the support of the full Sky train?

Two of Anquetil's tour wins were in the national teams era, won on 10 or 12 man
national teams from France in their home Grande Tour, so no, it would not have been
significantly harder for Anquetil ... Anquetil's other wins were with 10 man Rapha teams,
every bit as strong a team built around their leader as Froomey and Team SKY, and some
of the Anquetil years had a lot of time-trialling kms. compared to the current trend, making it
maybe even easier for a TT specialist like Anquetil to get into Yellow and to stay in Yellow.

You're confusing numbers with strength. You could have 20 domestiques in the 50s and 60s and they couldn't control the race as well as three or four modern Sky domestiques. The difference in strength between leaders and domestiques was so much bigger back then than it is now.

When a rival attacked in the 50s and 60s, the leader had to chase them down himself most of the time on climbs. Froome has five elite climbers at his disposal before he has to fully commit himself.

Not to knock his achievement, which is impressive, just highlighting that it is easier to defend a jersey in the modern era.

On the other hand, because the differences between riders are so much smaller now, that makes it harder these days. For example, Merckx was basically always the best at everything, now Froome has to be in top shape for his main goal of the season and he's still only 18 seconds clear.

 

[DanielSong39]

Re: Re:

Being a 3-time winner of the Tour de France and being in the yellow jersey comes with its set of privileges. Being able to wave your arm and call time-out whenever you're in difficulty is one of them.

Chris Froome is not the first person to take advantage of the privileges and he won't be the last.

Lance had the same respect or who is on yor mind?

Lance is probably the biggest example.

 

[DanielSong39]

Re:

A nightmare would be wattage transmition directly to the team car for live analysation.

What makes you think this isn't already being done?

This definitely qualifies as a marginal gain that is 100% legal and gives you a huge advantage.

 

[tretiak]

Re: Re:

A nightmare would be wattage transmition directly to the team car for live analysation.

What makes you think this isn't already being done?

This definitely qualifies as a marginal gain that is 100% legal and gives you a huge advantage.

Transmition is possible, in the Giro 2017 you did have a glimps on the wattage for some riders on broadcast. In TDF they don't want to show these numbers which is strange. Do not know who makes these decisions?

If they are doing these analyzes now, it's boring development, hard to understand that someone is sitting and communicating in your ear that you can ride 5 watts more or less.

 

[Katabatic]

Re:

A nightmare would be wattage transmition directly to the team car for live analysation.

This is almost certainly being done already.