Chris Hoy The Real Decoy?

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Don't be late Pedro

Don't be late Pedro

Aug 13, 2010
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gillan1969 said:
that's the point...i don't need anything...it should be taken as a given unless proved otherwise...

so...what do you have that would prove otherwise?
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So using your logic then everyone dopes, right? How can you prove otherwise?

Has he ever been caught in anything that implies doping?
Any backdated TUEs?
Failed tests that have been covered up?

Greg Lemond must dope as well. You can't prove otherwise.
 
G

gillan1969

Aug 12, 2009
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Don't be late Pedro said:
So using your logic then everyone dopes, right? How can you prove otherwise?

Has he ever been caught in anything that implies doping?
Any backdated TUEs?
Failed tests that have been covered up?

Greg Lemond must dope as well. You can't prove otherwise.
Click to expand...

I am not saying he dopes, I am saying the starting point for any analysis should be that he dopes....cycling at the top level has lost any credibility...

re lemond...he cycled in an era when success was possible without an industrial sized programme....oh...and he (above) world class (a different type of world class to bodybuilders on bikes that is)

cycling has lost any right to have sacred cows and if Sir Chris was worth his knighthood he would ride his trusty steed straight into Cookson's office and tell him exactly how to deal with our terrorist friends in Aigle...
 
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JimmyFingers

Jul 17, 2012
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gillan1969 said:
evidence would suggest that the vast majority of professional cyclist take PEDS...chris hoy is a professional cyclist...therefore.................

if you would like any professional cyclist, hoy or otherwise, to be assumed to be clean it might be an idea to remove 'haud it 'n' daud it' from the sports governing body...however Hoy's boss has just endorsed them....

it is therefore an entirely logical assumption to make...
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Is Hoy a professional cyclist? He didn't ride for a trade team, he rode for BC, so was paid through grants, winnings and endorsements. Anyway that is semantics.

The fact the remains this thread accusing Hoy of doping was stimulated by one of Hoy's many anti-doping statements, which seems perverse, but follows on from a very similar thread about Nicole Cooke when she did the same thing. The motivation for singling out these riders to me is firstly because they spoke out and also they are part of British Cycling. Plenty of track riders more suspicious than Hoy, and very few are being as outspoken as him against doping.
 
Don't be late Pedro

Don't be late Pedro

Aug 13, 2010
3,317
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gillan1969 said:
I am not saying he dopes, I am saying the starting point for any analysis should be that he dopes....cycling at the top level has lost any credibility...

re lemond...he cycled in an era when success was possible without an industrial sized programme....oh...and he (above) world class (a different type of world class to bodybuilders on bikes that is)

cycling has lost any right to have sacred cows and if Sir Chris was worth his knighthood he would ride his trusty steed straight into Cookson's office and tell him exactly how to deal with our terrorist friends in Aigle...
Click to expand...
So you are saying the starting point is that he dopes now prove he doesn't? But you are also not saying he dopes.

You are also implying that you need an industrial size programme to win at track cycling.

And I come back to my original statement. You have nothing.
 
G

gillan1969

Aug 12, 2009
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JimmyFingers said:
Is Hoy a professional cyclists? He didn't ride for a trade team, he rode for BC, so was paid through grants, winnings and endorsements. Anyway that is semantics.

The fact the remains this thread accusing Hoy of doping was stimulated by one of Hoy's many anti-doping statements, which seems perverse, but follows on from a very similar thread about Michelle Cooke when she did the same thing. The motivation for singling out these riders to me is firstly because they spoke out and also they are part of British Cycling. Plenty of track riders more suspicious than Hoy, and very few are being as outspoken as him against doping.
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probably a fair point...but riders comments re doping need to be discounted as an irrelevancy..armstrong proved that beyond doubt.
credibility for individual riders can only come through a robust system for all riders...a system that is currently so robust that MR considered it safe to drop 5 bags during le Tour in 2007 (in a Phat world as opposed to a Verbruggen one). This was only 1 year post Peurto!

so whilst the respected sportswriter Simon Barnes (mainstream) calls Pat and Hien disgusting old men, Cookson sees it otherwise - "we think that it’s very important that we support the current leadership" .....

so the head of BC has some credibility issues...
 
horsinabout

horsinabout

Jan 20, 2013
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There are unexplained improvements with our track riders. Being good technically does not explain the extra power they display to win races. In Baijing they had a quite staggering dominance, and our track riders including Hoy were descrided by other competitors as being like motor bikes to race against, hence the initial accusation of their bikes having engines in them, this remains unproven!

Hoy is a rich man due to his success, so the argument ""is he a professional" is a complete red herring.
 
horsinabout

horsinabout

Jan 20, 2013
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gillan1969 said:
probably a fair point...but riders comments re doping need to be discounted as an irrelevancy..armstrong proved that beyond doubt.
credibility for individual riders can only come through a robust system for all riders...a system that is currently so robust that MR considered it safe to drop 5 bags during le Tour in 2007 (in a Phat world as opposed to a Verbruggen one). This was only 1 year post Peurto!

so whilst the respected sportswriter Simon Barnes (mainstream) calls Pat and Hien disgusting old men, Cookson sees it otherwise - "we think that it’s very important that we support the current leadership" .....

so the head of BC has some credibility issues...
Click to expand...

Cookson for UCI one word DANGEROUS.
 
The Hitch

The Hitch

Jun 14, 2010
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Don't be late Pedro said:
So using your logic then everyone dopes, right? How can you prove otherwise?

Has he ever been caught in anything that implies doping?
Any backdated TUEs?
Failed tests that have been covered up?

Greg Lemond must dope as well. You can't prove otherwise.
Click to expand...

I don't know anywhere near enough about track cycling its times, records, links etc to make any case against hoy.

But from an Olympics point of.view he is 1 of the most successful athletes of the last 20 years, the single most successful of ALL.time for.his country and is it not.true also, for.his sport?

And looking at it from an Olympics point of view, it doesn't take a lot of digging to be able to convince oneself that the games have been rife with doping and that this has been.covered up, going way back when to los Angeles 29.years ago. And even as far as Sydney and Athens, we have heavy almost.irrefutable evidence.of.mass doping ( especially when looking at the results our beloved.sport posted and.continues to.post,, if not the scandals that ripped others).

Now from 2004, looking at the joke testing, the testimonies of those who.organized doping before, , the performance improvements, the 1 or.2 scandals,.and the familiar unwillingness of the governing body to.fight doping,.i would say it doesn't take a tremendous.leap of faith to imagine doping is still rife in the Olympics.

So.going back.to.hoy, or any athlete with such remarkable success in recent Olympics, when put into the context of recent sporting history, the well documented willingness of athletes.to take peds and their effectiveness, legitimate doubts can be applied to any of them.

Unfair on some who may have dominated cleanly? If such people do exist then yes. But i don't think anyone should.feel.guilty about having questionmarks enter their head any time they see any GOAT, that strutted their stuff in the 90's and later.

Especially since even the most fervent believers in clean sporting heroes (at least in the media) seem.to.have absolutely no problem applying these standards they so.despise to Chinese swimmers, Algerian distance runners, professional wrestlers or stromgman competitors.

Edit: and do the others deserve their own threads..yes. Its clear hoy is brought up here because he is part of bailsfords project.
 
G

gillan1969

Aug 12, 2009
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Don't be late Pedro said:
So you are saying the starting point is that he dopes now prove he doesn't? But you are also not saying he dopes.

You are also implying that you need an industrial size programme to win at track cycling.

And I come back to my original statement. You have nothing.
Click to expand...

i am saying that the starting point for any analysis for any very successful professional cyclist is that they dope...of course...you would have to be mental to consider otherwise......

the industrial size program refers to the involvement of doctors within the professional cycling set up (and here i would extend professional to include the BC/Sky set up).....the use of blood products changed the game in the early 90's and as such the lemond era was different

and so I come back to my statement...you have nothing to suggest I should amend my starting assumption....
 
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JimmyFingers

Jul 17, 2012
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Fair points from Hitch and Gillan, but I do struggle with the knee-jerk assumption all cyclist by default are dopers. It places the onus on them to prove they are clean, which they can't, because the controls are inadequate and the governing body is compromised.

It still begs the question why when a rider speaks out against doping this place turns on them. You want omerta gone, so riders going to the press and making strong anti-doping statements should be lauded rather than condemned.
 
The Hitch

The Hitch

Jun 14, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
Fair points from Hitch and Gillan, but I do struggle with the knee-jerk assumption all cyclist by default are dopers. It places the onus on them to prove they are clean, which they can't, because the controls are inadequate and the governing body is compromised.
.
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I didn't say cyclists..i said people.who.dominate their sport since the epo era. Phelps, messi, ronaldo, bolt, bekele , contador Armstrong, federer nadal djokovic, fedor, mayweather etc. How.many people have won gold.medals at 3 separate Olympics. That's a far smaller and more suspicious list than just "cyclists".

It still begs the question why when a rider speaks out against doping this place turns on them. You want omerta gone, so riders going to the press and making strong anti-doping statements should be lauded rather than condemned
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I dont know. Ask the people that do that.
 
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JimmyFingers

Jul 17, 2012
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The Hitch said:
I didn't say cyclists..i said people.who.dominate their sport since the epo era. Phelps, messi, ronaldo, bolt, bekele , contador Armstrong, federer nadal djokovic, fedor, mayweather etc. How.many people have won gold.medals at 3 separate Olympics. That's a far smaller and more suspicious list than just "cyclists".



I dont know. Ask the people that do that.
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The last was more a general question, wasn't directed solely at you.

I do understand why Hoy is suspicious, just bemused as to why he makes a strong, worthy statement and effectively paints a target on himself to certain members of the clinic.

3 Olympics and slew of gold medals is certainly an impressive record, but 'he won, ergo he doped' is a huge disservice to him/any athlete if they did clean
 
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mikehammer67

Aug 19, 2012
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JimmyFingers

Jul 17, 2012
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armchairclimber said:
Doubts over Hoy are legit...even if they are unfounded.

Oddly, I would have more confidence in Steve Redgrave being clean. I have no rational explanation for this. I'm in the clinic though so who cares?
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The only doubts are that he is good, and he won a lot. Apart from that there is little of anything of substance to add any credence to lazy accusations of doping.

If you go by the assumption 'he's big, he won a lot of things, he must dope' then any discussion is over really, isn't it?

Not directed at you armcharclimber, just a general point of order.
 
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