Clásica San Sebastián 2022, one day race, July 30

[Miha81]

That's what they said about Vingegaard and Pogacar. But we saw how Vingegaard rode off Pogacar twice.

Almost nobody expected that weak UAE and so domjnant TJV and that has made all the difference. TBF Vinge rode off Pogacar last year but was later caught.

I won't agree with opinion that Remco is somehow a superclimber now and nobody can follow his wheel until proven otherwise. One day race scenario is not a proof in my books.

But hey, let's wait for Vuelta to start.

 

[Rackham]

Evenepoel is a one day race terror. Clearly one of the best & his trademark solo raids are his signature move. He super demoralized everyone yesterday when he just blew them off his wheel without even really attacking.

Now we need to see whether he can do it in a GT. That's the question as well, i.e. not long cols versus shorts cols (he's been good on both at various times in his career) or talk about watts & gradients etc., no, it's about repetition of hard stages over 3 weeks.

No point arguing either way until August & I really hope he has no incidents & the racing is clean, i.e. so we find out his real level in a GT without anything which raises further questions.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

1) I never mentioned Almeida in this thread. They go for different race types;

2) Tell me a one day race that has had more DNF than this one;

3) Stop being so resentful, it doesn't do you any good. Putting Remco's win in context is actually good for everyone;

You did "mention" Almeida a lot in the past, as a better version of Evenepoel. Suffer from amnesia ?

It was you who always attacked me in the past when it was about Evenepoel . You also always claimed that Almeida would be better once he was no longer in the team of Lefevere and Evenepoel. You also claimed that in his new team Almeida would not be a domestique like he was with Quickstep. Almeida is definitely a good rider. But he does not have the qualities of Evenepoel by far. Certainly not to become second leader next to Pogacar.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

Almost nobody expected that weak UAE and so domjnant TJV and that has made all the difference. TBF Vinge rode off Pogacar last year but was later caught.

I won't agree with opinion that Remco is somehow a superclimber now and nobody can follow his wheel until proven otherwise. One day race scenario is not a proof in my books.

But hey, let's wait for Vuelta to start.

I totally agree Evenepoel isn't a superclimber. He climbs on pace and condition. Evenepoel is just a great all-rounder.

It probably won't be a GT racer. Although I do not rule out the possibility that if everything goes perfectly, and the course suits him, he will win a Grand Tour.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

As much as the insufferable Remco fan tribe? Surely, not!

I don't feel addressed. I am a neutral cycling enthusiast .

 

[Miha81]

I totally agree Evenepoel isn't a superclimber. He climbs on pace and condition. Evenepoel is just a great all-rounder.

It probably won't be a GT racer. Although I do not rule out the possibility that if everything goes perfectly, and the course suits him, he will win a Grand Tour.

That is why I hope for in form Carapaz and Rogla on Vuelta. I know it is a long shot with Rogla but I still hope he can somehow heal the injuries and get in shape.

With those two in shape Remco will be able to show what he is made of in terms of 3 week racing. Otherwise there will be always doubt of weak field and similar stuff.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Remco can always fall back to football
if he can't crack the GTs

 

[Elos Anjos]

You did "mention" Almeida a lot in the past, as a better version of Evenepoel. Suffer from amnesia ?

It was you who always attacked me in the past when it was about Evenepoel . You also always claimed that Almeida would be better once he was no longer in the team of Lefevere and Evenepoel. You also claimed that in his new team Almeida would not be a domestique like he was with Quickstep. Almeida is definitely a good rider. But he does not have the qualities of Evenepoel by far. Certainly not to become second leader next to Pogacar.

Only in your (there others) mind can the fact that I (or someone) praising Almeida is a good enough reason to criticize Remco. That's just plain tribal thinking and logic. Again, there are good enough reasons to put Remco's win in context. One of them being cooling down the hype.

Although both are finding out what they can do cycling wise, Remco and Almeida have a different set of basic skills. Last year they overlapped a bit in Milan-Torino and Almeida came out on top. I compare Almeida with other GT and one week riders, not with Remco. They are only rivals in very specific races.

Finally, I didn't attack in you in the past, I attacked what you wrote. And I did it because you write a lot of garbage. Like saying that not only Almeida, but any rider that doesn't prove himself soon enough in a GT will be assigned only domestique duties. Or that Almeida should have stayed in Quickstep when clearly he wouldn't have there the room to grow.

 

[Big Doopie]

Again, there are good enough reasons to put Remco's win in context. One of them being cooling down the hype.

Again, what hype are you precisely referring to?

Again, absolutely no one here is stating that this win means GT success. No one. So u consider hype anyone suggesting that yesterday’s performance was a good one, which many did. Is that what you have a problem with? Anyone saying anything positive about what was an extraordinary ride.

To put it in factual context, San Sebastián and LBL are two of the strongest rides by any cyclist this season. That is not hype. That is simply a fact. And the fact that it is a 22 year old doing it is exciting.

Remco is firmly in the top five riders in the world right now. That is pretty undebatable. Most rankings support this.

Literally no one, no one is affirming that he will definitely rival Pog and Vingo in a GT, but is that really the only criteria? Vingo’s TDF win was fabulous, but at the end of 2022 I doubt any knowledgeable fan will say that his season was distinctly better than Remco’s. Different, sure. With a fantastic win in the greatest race, absolutely. But better overall, hmm.

Only one other racer today could have done a similar ride yesterday and that is Pog. And since no one really debates that Pog is a generational talent, that’s not bad company to be in. Could Lulu have done that ride? Nope. WvA? Nope. VDP? Nope. Bernal? Nope. Thomas? Nope. Vingo? Nope….Almeida? Lol.

So what hype are you sooo against? It seems more about you. More about your apparent dislike of Remco and therefore you perceive every success he achieves as a personal affront.

There is one thing I appreciate about the haters. They have managed to turn Remco into an unlikely underdog (that and his crash). He goes into nearly every race with doubts about him swirling…making every win just all the sweeter.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Oh yes, so yummy, so surprising. Another theory that places any source of criticism towards a rider's performance and the hype around it in the personal flaws of the critic. Yawn.

Context:

1. about half the peloton in San Sebastian DNF;
2. riders are either tired or preparing for other late season goals;
3. Remco after winning LBL and a thrilling Tour of Norway bonked hard in Tour de Suisse;
4. the hype thread went through yeta another meltdown pointing out reasons;
5. after yesterday, the hype got renewed again;

It could be the case that other riders were not using San Sebastian like a race in itself, but just as a warming up. There is then a virtual startlist composed of all the riders that got into the race, but the real startlist is just about very few riders that decided to really try to win it. And that list was really small and somewhat weak. While all this doesn't diminish Remco's win (is a win is a win), it puts into its proper context.

Now, I think Remco is really exciting, but managing his efforts and knowing himself doesn't seem a skill set he has mastered yet. While fans are excited by performances, going full gas on one race can well have practical effects on late season goals (VDP and Pogacar come to mind).

 

[Potomac]

Defending champion Powless was not at the race. This year's results should get an asterisk.

 

[Potomac]

Powless has won this race EVERY time he has started.

 

[Big Doopie]

Now, I think Remco is really exciting, but managing his efforts and knowing himself doesn't seem a skill set he has mastered yet. While fans are excited by performances, going full gas on one race can well have practical effects on late season goals (VDP and Pogacar come to mind).

Well well well. I agree wholeheartedly with this. Particularly in relation to riding for GC at a GT. And also why I don’t hold out too much hope for his GC in the Vuelta. I think he could animate the first ten days, but just as likely that he fall off the map completely in one stage (or several). In other words, I think he could either win or be completely out of the top ten. Finishing 7th is not going to happen imo.

However, I wouldn’t want him to hold back on a one-day race like San Sebastián. Why? He’s not racing again for three weeks. I love the fact that he went out to win.

Others using San Sebastián as a training…Seriously? Yawn. I am sure there were riders at Strade Bianche that were not in top shape yet (while Pog was due to the team’s major goal of UAE tour). Lulu crashed out basically. VDP and WvA weren’t there iirc. And yet absolutely no one diminished Pog’s amazing ride. Why do these excuses seem to only be brought up when Remco wins?

As for using DNFs as a criteria for saying the race was weak, you are demonstrating frankly how little you know about the history of cycling (and particularly one day races where there is no tomorrow). More DNFs on a one day race usually indicates how incredibly hard the racing was. Some examples you may want to look at:

1989 WC
1980 WC
1974 WC

Very few riders finished any of those races. Are you suggesting that the wins of Merckx, Hinault and Lemond were somehow diminished or illegitimate? These are considered three of the very greatest Worlds races.

 

[Frobisher Bay]

Powless has won this race EVERY time he has started.

Evenepoel as well

 

[Potomac]

Evenepoel as well

Powless has finished EVERY grand tour he started

 

[Elos Anjos]

Very few riders finished any of those races. Are you suggesting that the wins of Merckx, Hinault and Lemond were somehow diminished or illegitimate? These are considered three of the very greatest Worlds races.

I agree that DNF can also show sometimes how hard a race was. But are you really comparing a WC DNF with one-day race DNF stuck up between two GTs? The former is a targeted goal by GT, classic and one week stage racers. You cannot say that someone goes for a WC to warm up.

Acnowledging that any startlist is composed of yet-to-be in shape riders and top shape riders does not turn a win into a defeat (I never used the terms "illegitimate" or "diminished"), but it enrichs its context. That's why there are discussions about the virtual possibilities that a rider like Pogacar in Strade Bianche or Remco in San Sebastian would fare perhaps differently had they faced other riders in their respective top shapes. Fans alike tend to conjecture the ideal race where every rider is in their top shape, both physically and mentally, but that never happens. Every race has its own context but yesterday's context was particularly relevant for understanding Remco's win.

Finnaly, Remco had all the reasons to go yesterday for a win, even if he goes to Vuelta to find out more about how does he perform in a GT. He already knows how he excels in such a one-day races profile without having to worry how he would recover for two category-1 climbs the next day.

 

[Big Doopie]

I gave you three prime examples of one day races that had a lot of DNFs.

I apologize that three that came to mind immediately were all WCs

I will extend this to any one day classic or monument between or after GTs. If there are a lot of DNFs, it generally means the racing was very hard. There is very little reason for a rider dropped three climbs from the end to keep battling on. Same for teammates who have completed their work. GTs are completely different as you have to stay in the race. Another indication that the racing was extremely hard fought yesterday was the fact that riders came in in ones and twos. Another tell-tale sign.

Using DNFs as an indication that the racing was easier is simply false and I recommend that you eliminate it from your argument as it lessens any other perhaps more valid points you may be making.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

That is why I hope for in form Carapaz and Rogla on Vuelta. I know it is a long shot with Rogla but I still hope he can somehow heal the injuries and get in shape.

With those two in shape Remco will be able to show what he is made of in terms of 3 week racing. Otherwise there will be always doubt of weak field and similar stuff.

Without Pogacar and Vingegaard there will be “weak field” comments no matter who wins I suspect.

 

[RedheadDane]

Without Pogacar and Vingegaard there will be “weak field” comments no matter who wins I suspect.

Seems like some people can always find riders, whose absense would make it a "weak field."

 

[RobertCrawley]

I totally agree Evenepoel isn't a superclimber. He climbs on pace and condition. Evenepoel is just a great all-rounder.

It probably won't be a GT racer. Although I do not rule out the possibility that if everything goes perfectly, and the course suits him, he will win a Grand Tour.

It's hard to say yet. After he finishes one GT, that will give him tremendous confidence to tackle others. A lot will depend on the kind of racer that he wants to be or that his DS wants him to be. Does he want to be (or can he be) a lightweight mountaintop guy? Or does he want to be a green jersey guy like Sagan or WvA? There's much fame and fortune in that too.

 

[Big Doopie]

After he finishes one GT, that will give him tremendous confidence to tackle others...

or not... ;-)

1. Does he actually have the temperament to be a GT GC rider? willing to stay in the wheels of teammates and opponents for much of three whole weeks and picking select moments to make the kill. so far, nothing indicates that kind of patience, tbh.
2. Does he have the team to support him for GT GC riding? Not only the teammates but the support and refueling knowledge. That, too, is not yet apparent.
3. Does he have the resistance/recovery abilities to win a three-week race? Definitely still to be determined.

I believe all three of the above are absolutely valid questions to have going into the vuelta.

my hope is that he shows #3 - it may mitigate #2. however, i am not sure that i want him to show #1.

 

[RobertCrawley]

or not... ;-)

1. Does he actually have the temperament to be a GT GC rider? willing to stay in the wheels of teammates and opponents for much of three whole weeks and picking select moments to make the kill. so far, nothing indicates that kind of patience, tbh.
2. Does he have the team to support him for GT GC riding? Not only the teammates but the support and refueling knowledge. That, too, is not yet apparent.
3. Does he have the resistance/recovery abilities to win a three-week race? Definitely still to be determined.

I believe all three of the above are absolutely valid questions to have going into the vuelta.

my hope is that he shows #3 - it may mitigate #2. however, i am not sure that i want him to show #1.

Ha ha! Yes, or not.

Yes, that's a great point that GC riders have superhuman recovery abilities. In fact, that may be the single most important difference between winners and losers in the GTs.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Finally, I didn't attack in you in the past, I attacked what you wrote.

You called him a Belgian troll. And, while i don't necessarily disagree with that notion (I'm probably the first one to have put him on ignore within a few weeks of him making his account) it is not about just attacking what he wrote but attacking him as a poster. The funny part is, that what you have been doing in this topic, is quite similar to his behaviour in the Almeida thread.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Powless has finished EVERY grand tour he started

Evenepoel is yet to lose a GT he finished.

 

[Miha81]

Without Pogacar and Vingegaard there will be “weak field” comments no matter who wins I suspect.

I agree. But 3rd and lets say 4th or 5th best GT rider are still better than none of them.