Contador 2010

[Publicus]

Given free rein I think Horner could outclimb all of them except AC and Klodi. He was pretty good tactically for AC when they collaborated without the other protected riders: Levi, LA, etc.

Agree with that. I can't remember which early season stage race it was (I think Algarvae), but Horner launched AC and then came back and launched him again. It was a beautiful thing to see.

 

[Carboncrank]

Just reminds me of how stupid Bruyneel was last year (and please spare me the crap that he won so how stupid could he be). He jeopardized a potential Tour victory to help an aging athlete's vain attempt to recapture old glory at the expense of the best stage racer in the world. Frankly he's lucky AC had the good sense not to trust him.

He won so how stupid could he be?

Alberto was never in jeopardy. It could be said that Astana made it boring. The outcome was never in doubt.

Time to put your revisionist history of the race to bed. There'll be new racing to talk about soon enough.

 

[Carboncrank]

That was the reason I thought. JB trying to play it cool and neutral. Regardless of what side you were on as a fan, it was obvious JB was in Lance's corner from the get go. Choosing Horner would of only made it more obvious.

I do understand Horner's frustration though. He could have walked (or ridden) on to any TdF team he wanted.

What a perfectly ridiculous thing to say. You can't say regardless of what side you were on and then make a comment that is completely biased.

The objective thing to have done would have been to pick the best rider. It seems clear to most people that was Horner.

 

[Publicus]

He won so how stupid could he be?

Alberto was never in jeopardy. It could be said that Astana made it boring. The outcome was never in doubt.

Time to put your revisionist history of the race to bed. There'll be new racing to talk about soon enough.

Reading comprehension continues to be your weak point. It was a stupid decision to split the leadership when he will acknowledge every day that he knew Contador was the strongest at the start of the Tour. Splitting the leadership created unnecessary strife. The quality of his decision_making is not measured on the outcome, but at the time the decision was made.

And I said he put the Tour victory in doubt, not AC. AC was smart enough to understand that he could only rely on his legs; that his DS was compromised. The fact that you cannot grasp these simple concepts suggests that you need to spend less time on these forums and more time with Hooked-On-Phonics and My Baby Can Read.

 

[Carboncrank]

Reading comprehension continues to be your weak point. It was a stupid decision to split the leadership when he will acknowledge every day that he knew Contador was the strongest at the start of the Tour. Splitting the leadership created unnecessary strife. The quality of his decision_making is not measured on the outcome, but at the time the decision was made.

What a bunch of malarkey. Trying to claim decisions were bad when the outcome was so overwhelmingly good is second guessing.

The other day you said Lance was on a great team but lost anyway, and yet you go on and on about how they rode against poor 'ol Alberto. Great teams don't do that. Yet again you want it both ways. When you want to make Lance look bad you say he couldn't win on a great team, then you turn around and claim they were nothing but treacherous ba$tards trying to perpetrate a sporting fraud.

How many conflicting statement do you need to satisfy your urge to demonize Armstrong and Bruyneel?
Just because one disagrees with you doesn't mean one is a dummy.

 

[Publicus]

What a bunch of malarkey. Trying to claim decisions were bad when the outcome was so overwhelmingly good is second guessing.

The other day you said Lance was on a great team but lost anyway, and yet you go on and on about how they rode against poor 'ol Alberto. Great teams don't do that. Yet again you want it both ways. When you want to make Lance look bad you say he couldn't win on a great team, then you turn around and claim they were nothing but treacherous ba$tards trying to perpetrate a sporting fraud.

How many conflicting statement do you need to satisfy your urge to demonize Armstrong and Bruyneel?
Just because one disagrees with you doesn't mean one is a dummy.

It's not a claim, it is how you measure the quality of an individual's decision-making process. The outcomes are affected by a myriad of external factors BEYOND the decision-makers control (in this case, other riders, bike equipment, weather and road conditions, riders health and physical fitness, etc., etc.). Thus you look at what factors the individual thought were relevant when making the decision. So for example, when deciding to split the leadership of the team between AC and LA, what did he consider? The fact that AC ultimately won and the team did not completely implode does not impact how he arrived at the decision to split the leadership. What does is whether he consider AC's consistent performance over the course of 2009 and LA's LACK of performance over that same period? Or did he consider that AC had won all of the GT's he had entered since 2007 or that LA was a really good friend of his? Or that LA had a broken collarbone and had a ton of muscle he had not lost from his retirement? That AC was the best stage racer in the world, or that LA had won 7 TdF's. Or that AC was 26 and LA was 38 and 10 months (and out of racing for almost 4 years). Those factors are critical when assessing his decision-making skills NOT whether the team ultimately won.

My comment the other day was in reference to some oversimplification you were making about Lance. And I've never said they road AGAINST AC; I have said they did not ride FOR AC. There is a difference. Consult your nearest grammar and style book and dictionary if you need further clarification of the difference between the two terms.

The fact is, I've been consistent in my analysis, since it is driven by logic and not passion. I can criticize Bruyneel's tactics and decision-making given the information available. The fact that AC won IN SPITE of those tactical errors and decisions is not a testament to Bruyneel's tactical genius or decision-making skills, but AC's talent and mental wherewithal to overcome them.

Why don't you marinate on this one for awhile before you respond?

 

[Polish]

I can criticize Bruyneel's tactics and decision-making given the information available. The fact that AC won IN SPITE of those tactical errors and decisions is not a testament to Bruyneel's tactical genius or decision-making skills, but AC's talent and mental wherewithal to overcome them.

One man's "IN SPITE of" is another man's "BECAUSE of".

ALL of Alberto's GT wins, and his other major wins for that matter, have come under the Leadership of Johan.

This year we will see Alberto race without Johan. If your theory holds true, Alberto will have 2010 results far better than anything he has done so far.

We will see. However, I think Alberto is already starting to wobble off course. Last February, Alberto was NOT twittering and test riding Ferrari's. Johan had the kid focused and training hard. Last February, Johan did not let Alberto hang out with one of the Jonas Brothers.

 

[Publicus]

One man's "IN SPITE of" is another man's "BECAUSE of".

ALL of Alberto's GT wins, and his other major wins for that matter, have come under the Leadership of Johan.

This year we will see Alberto race without Johan. If your theory holds true, Alberto will have 2010 results far better than anything he has done so far.

We will see. However, I think Alberto is already starting to wobble off course. Last February, Alberto was NOT twittering and test riding Ferrari's. Johan had the kid focused and training hard. Last February, Johan did not let Alberto hang out with one of the Jonas Brothers.

Bruyneel was not the DS in the car for any of AC's first 3 GT wins (google it). He was in the car for the 2009 TdF. He was in the car for all of Lance's major victories. Perhaps that's why you are confused.

How do you know what AC was doing last year? I mean if he wasn't twittering you wouldn't know that he was test driving cars this year, so he could have been doing it last year, no? From what I can tell, Johan had little if anything to do with AC's training last year (Pepe Marti seems to be the guy), so I'm not sure what you are talking about --maybe you are hoping that is the case and it will give Lance a hint of a chance of not getting another Texas-size mudhole stomped into his a$$ this year--maybe it will only be the size of California.

 

[Polish]

Bruyneel was not the DS in the car for any of AC's first 3 GT wins (google it). He was in the car for the 2009 TdF. He was in the car for all of Lance's major victories. Perhaps that's why you are confused.

How do you know what AC was doing last year? I mean if he wasn't twittering you wouldn't know that he was test driving cars this year, so he could have been doing it last year, no? From what I can tell, Johan had little if anything to do with AC's training last year (Pepe Marti seems to be the guy), so I'm not sure what you are talking about --maybe you are hoping that is the case and it will give Lance a hint of a chance of not getting another Texas-size mudhole stomped into his a$$ this year--maybe it will only be the size of California.

The DS's in the cars work for Johan.
Johan chooses which DSs go into the cars.
The Tactical Genius is not driving a car.

Pepe Marti? Really....

 

[Carboncrank]

Bruyneel was not the DS in the car for any of AC's first 3 GT wins (google it). He was in the car for the 2009 TdF. He was in the car for all of Lance's major victories. Perhaps that's why you are confused.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/06/road/bruyneel-were-seeing-the-birth-of-a-great-champion_77000

"Astana team manager Johan Bruyneel celebrated his 11th grand tour victory from behind the steering wheel of a team car with Alberto Contador’s unlikely Giro d’Italia win Sunday."

Now your typical gambit will be to start giving me reasons why what it says is not what it means.

I'll probably be back with more. Let the backpedaling begin.

edit: back. He was clearly in the car in the 2007 TdF. There's like 15 interviews on the steephill.tv site. Surely you are not saying you think he stayed in the bus?
He does not appear to have been at the 2008 Vuelta.

So, let's recap. Bruyneel has been DS, in the car in all but one of Alberto's Grand Tour wins.

 

[Publicus]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/06/road/bruyneel-were-seeing-the-birth-of-a-great-champion_77000

"Astana team manager Johan Bruyneel celebrated his 11th grand tour victory from behind the steering wheel of a team car with Alberto Contador’s unlikely Giro d’Italia win Sunday."

Now your typical gambit will be to start giving me reasons why what it says is not what it means.

I'll probably be back with more. Let the backpedaling begin.

edit: back. He was clearly in the car in the 2007 TdF. There's like 15 interviews on the steephill.tv site. Surely you are not saying you think he stayed in the bus?
He does not appear to have been at the 2008 Vuelta.

So, let's recap. Bruyneel has been DS, in the car in all but one of Alberto's Grand Tour wins.

Yes you are right Bruyneel showed up at the end of the 2007 TdF, 2008 Giro and 2008 Vuelta. He was not the listed DS for any of those squads. If memory serves it was Gallopin, Gallopin and Demol.

EDIT: I was wrong about 2007 all together Bruyneel--I think I was incorrectly thinking about Lance showing up for the final TT (so I'll have my crow sautéed with a little onion please); Sean Yates was the DS at the 2008 Giro; and Gallopin was the DS at the 2008 Vuelta. So he was DS for 2 of his GT wins (both Tours).

w.astana-cyclingteam.com/RaceRecaps_overview.html

 

[Carboncrank]

It's not a claim, it is how you measure the quality of an individual's decision-making process. The outcomes are affected by a myriad of external factors BEYOND the decision-makers control (in this case, other riders, bike equipment, weather and road conditions, riders health and physical fitness, etc., etc.). Thus you look at what factors the individual thought were relevant when making the decision. So for example, when deciding to split the leadership of the team between AC and LA, what did he consider? The fact that AC ultimately won and the team did not completely implode does not impact how he arrived at the decision to split the leadership.

What does is whether he consider AC's consistent performance over the course of 2009 and LA's LACK of performance over that same period? Or did he consider that AC had won all of the GT's he had entered since 2007 or that LA was a really good friend of his? Or that LA had a broken collarbone and had a ton of muscle he had not lost from his retirement? That AC was the best stage racer in the world, or that LA had won 7 TdF's. Or that AC was 26 and LA was 38 and 10 months (and out of racing for almost 4 years). Those factors are critical when assessing his decision-making skills NOT whether the team ultimately won.

I agree with that whole list of reasons why Alberto was the leader, and the favorite, and I can find you quotes of Bruyneel saying just that. Even saying most of the exact things you said.
Going into the start there may have a corner of his mind that needed to stay open to the possibility Lance might have the goods but that all went away after prologue.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/contador-named-astanas-tour-leader-22177

My comment the other day was in reference to some oversimplification you were making about Lance. And I've never said they road AGAINST AC; I have said they did not ride FOR AC. There is a difference. Consult your nearest grammar and style book and dictionary if you need further clarification of the difference between the two terms.

Still talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's a nine man team. They are riding FOR someone. They are not just out there tooling around with a DS that doesn't know his **** from a whole in the ground. Tell me who you think they were riding for. If it was Lance it has to be AGAINST the interests of AC, which I'm going to respectfully disagree with.

I don't see any evidence that there was ever any strategy employed by Bruyneel that hurt AC's chance to win or that didn't maximize the chances that if something happened to AC another Astana rider, not even necessarily Lance, could contend, which is he gets paid the big bucks to do. I watched and re watched the same race you did.

 

[Carboncrank]

Yes you are right Bruyneel showed up at the end of the 2007 TdF, 2008 Giro and 2008 Vuelta. He was not the listed DS for any of those squads. If memory serves it was Gallopin, Gallopin and Demol.

At the end? lol

Backpedal a little further.....

Or prove your case. Do a little googling of your own.

 

[Publicus]

The DS's in the cars work for Johan.
Johan chooses which DSs go into the cars.
The Tactical Genius is not driving a car.

Pepe Marti? Really....

Really? So they are marionette's? With Johan screaming tactics in their ears and them simply relaying that info to the riders? Interesting.

And yes, really AC has a personal trainer who designs his training plans. Or did you think Armstrong was the only professional cyclist with a private coach(es)?

 

[Race Radio]

Really? So they are marionette's? With Johan screaming tactics in their ears and them simply relaying that info to the riders? Interesting.

And yes, really AC has a personal trainer who designs his training plans. Or did you think Armstrong was the only professional cyclist with a private coach(es)?

Pepe is a coach in the same way Ferrari is a coach.

Smart move by Contador to swipe Marti from the Hog, he knows where all the bodies, er syringes, are buried.

 

[Publicus]

I agree with that whole list of reasons why Alberto was the leader, and the favorite, and I can find you quotes of Bruyneel saying just that. Even saying most of the exact things you said.
Going into the start there may have a corner of his mind that needed to stay open to the possibility Lance might have the goods but that all went away after prologue.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/contador-named-astanas-tour-leader-22177


Still talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's a nine man team. They are riding FOR someone. They are not just out there tooling around with a DS that doesn't know his **** from a whole in the ground. Tell me who you think they were riding for. If it was Lance it has to be AGAINST the interests of AC, which I'm going to respectfully disagree with.

I don't see any evidence that there was ever any strategy employed by Bruyneel that hurt AC's chance to win or that didn't maximize the chances that if something happened to AC another Astana rider, not even necessarily Lance, could contend, which is he gets paid the big bucks to do. I watched and re watched the same race you did.

1. If AC was the leader then there should have been ZERO consideration given to Lance's desires. Lance desires were given consideration which means that AC was not the undisputed leader. Hence my argument that the leadership was split. Notwithstanding Bruyneel's declaration of ACs leadership, you have Armstrong's comments (see Velonews interview from just before the tour).

2. There is a difference between riding FOR the benefit of one rider (i.e., to maximize that riders gains against other GC contenders) and riding AGAINST that rider. I've never claimed that the latter occurred at Astana, but the former. I suggested that you marinate on that point before you responded, but apparently you did not take my advice.

3. I notice you didn't say you saw any tactics that maximized AC's time gains over his competitors. As team leader that should have been the focus, not the podium placement of a domestique (no matter if he was super or regular).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

@ Polish

Alberto Contador interviewFeburary 2008:

Q. Who do you work with in preparation?

A.The same as last year. I am working with the trainer on the team (Pepe Marti) and now I am working closely with Alain Gallopin

 

[Publicus]

At the end? lol

Backpedal a little further.....

Or prove your case. Do a little googling of your own.

I edited the post and admitted I was wrong regarding the 2007 Tour.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/06/road/bruyneel-were-seeing-the-birth-of-a-great-champion_77000

"Astana team manager Johan Bruyneel celebrated his 11th grand tour victory from behind the steering wheel of a team car with Alberto Contador’s unlikely Giro d’Italia win Sunday."

Now your typical gambit will be to start giving me reasons why what it says is not what it means.

I'll probably be back with more. Let the backpedaling begin.

edit: back. He was clearly in the car in the 2007 TdF. There's like 15 interviews on the steephill.tv site. Surely you are not saying you think he stayed in the bus?
He does not appear to have been at the 2008 Vuelta.

So, let's recap. Bruyneel has been DS, in the car in all but one of Alberto's Grand Tour wins.

Not quite - JB did not arrive at the Giro in 2008 until the last week, and Alberto was already in the Pink Jersey. Sean Yates was the DS for that race.

 

[Carboncrank]

3. I notice you didn't say you saw any tactics that maximized AC's time gains over his competitors. As team leader that should have been the focus, not the podium placement of a domestique (no matter if he was super or regular).

I saw tactics that put AC on position to get gains, which is Johann's main job, and I saw tactics buy Lance and Kloden and Levi that hindered counterattacks, which is what support riders do.

 

[Carboncrank]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/06/road/bruyneel-were-seeing-the-birth-of-a-great-champion_77000

"Astana team manager Johan Bruyneel celebrated his 11th grand tour victory from behind the steering wheel of a team car with Alberto Contador’s unlikely Giro d’Italia win Sunday."

Yes you are right Bruyneel showed up at the end of the 2007 TdF, 2008 Giro and 2008 Vuelta. He was not the listed DS for any of those squads. If memory serves it was Gallopin, Gallopin and Demol.

EDIT: I was wrong about 2007 all together Bruyneel--I think I was incorrectly thinking about Lance showing up for the final TT (so I'll have my crow sautéed with a little onion please); Sean Yates was the DS at the 2008 Giro; and Gallopin was the DS at the 2008 Vuelta. So he was DS for 2 of his GT wins (both Tours).

w.astana-cyclingteam.com/RaceRecaps_overview.html

Put whatever title you want on Yates, Johann was in the car. You said he was not.

Talk about a reading problem. What part of that quote is not crystal clear?
You need to take that last bite.

 

[Publicus]

I saw tactics that put AC on position to get gains, which is Johann's main job, and I saw tactics buy Lance and Kloden and Levi that hindered counterattacks, which is what support riders do.

Which were what exactly? He gained time on the following stages: (1), (4), (7), (15), (17) and (18). Stages (1) and (18) were ITTs, so there were no tactics involved, as was Stage (4)--TTT. So that leaves tactics for Stages (7) and (17), which should make your job fairly easy.

 

[Publicus]

Put whatever title you want on Yates, Johann was in the car. You said he was not.

Talk about a reading problem. What part of that quote is not crystal clear?
You need to take that last bite.

He was in the car for the final TT--one stage out of 21, does not make you a DS for the race.

 

[ravens]

Which were what exactly? He gained time on the following stages: (1), (4), (7), (15), (17) and (18). Stages (1) and (18) were ITTs, so there was no tactics involved, as was Stage (4)--TTT. So that leaves tactics for Stages (7) and (17), which should make your job fairly easy.

Without trying to join the never ending saga of dealing with CC, I would have to agree with Publicus (and prolly a whole slew of other people). Who and when did anyone sacrifice themselves for AC to gain time?

As a snide aside, did anyone else on Astana sacrifice themself for any other team member? When/where?

Honest questions: Lastly, since this thread is AC 2010, not Astana 2009, who will sacrifice themselves for AC at the tdf this year? how/when? Is it realistic to believe that he will get the kind of support to make his goal significantly more obtainable this year than last? Or did he get more support last year or will this year be more to his benefit? (Ok, that last question also had some sarcasm.)


.

 

[Carboncrank]

Not quite - JB did not arrive at the Giro in 2008 until the last week, and Alberto was already in the Pink Jersey. Sean Yates was the DS for that race.

In pink in a race that was far from decided.

Bruyneel was in the car on stage 19 where it was important that Contador not lose his cool just because Di Luca was up the road.

That last week was brilliantly raced.