Contador acquitted

[Descender]

Word is Contador included some information about clenbuterol-related farm raids in Northern Spain with economic sanctions and the like.

 

[sniper]

the 132-page document that explained the basis for the 1-year preliminary suspension, is available on line and was posted some place here too. it's in spanish, i read some passages.

regarding the two 'killer' arguments submitted during the 10-d appeal window, aside from a politically staged explanation, i can think of only the following:

mind you, these are mere speculations...
(i) somehow increased confidence level that the blood passport did not provide evidence of blood transfusion. this could be another weighty expert opinion, or most likely, a nod from the uci (consolidating their wagons before pelli's appeal case at cas in 2-3 weeks)
(ii) ovcharov case may have given some members of disciplinary panel 2nd thoughts and more courage.
(iii) as i have covered in several threads, if the meat purchase receipt was shown to be authentic, this may give the stake contamination theory an additional notch of credibility since the coincidence of a positive tests and a teak purchase would be unlikely otherwise..perhaps some element in 'receipt authentication' process just materialized...

just brainstorming..but this all pales in comparison to a politically staged scenario.

the piece in bold is a great brainstorm. you might be warm there.

 

[ak-zaaf]

I dont think it represents justice of any kind. I would bet my house that he doped. But i view life through on own terms.

I think everyone is doping, and i strongly oppose the sport of scape goating, putting everyones sins on a got (in this case Alberto) and beating it out of the village for it to starve so that everyone else can claim clean cycling.

Also i think Contador is a better ambassador for the sport than Andrew.

So i hope he will be free to ride.

Wow, someone making sense

 

[python]

Thanks Python. Having read some of the passages of the original 132 page decision, did you find the reasoning plausible/reasonable? Or did it seem a stretch? I only ask because I cannot read Spanish and, from all indications, you are one of the more objective souls frequenting these threads. Thanks in advance.

my opinion is nuanced and was explained before in many threads. here's the summary...

-the whole 1-year suspension is clearly contradictory to the applicable wada rule. 1-year suspension implies no significant negligence or fault but this is a case of no fault or fault (long story, but a steak purchased in europe unlike a supplement or a mexican or chinese steak can not be attributed to limited liability on simple odds of eu meat testing results)

- the weakness of blood transfusion theory, provided the plasticizer test has never been 'officalized', looks plausible (plausable does not mean there was no transfusion) based on 5 expert opinions about his passport
- other routes, like a supplement or an intentional microdosing with clen, are easy to show not being consistent with the evidence, therapeutic doses, and the timing of the tests...



-

 

[Jamsque]

And yet, there seems to be a disconnect between what you say and realitity, as Italy is producing just about as many doping positives as Spain, if not more.

I'm not saying the man is prejudiced against me. YOU are saying it. There's a difference.

And the reason I was asking him that question is because I want to be able to understand who in this discusion is in it for purely sportive reasons, like yourselves, and those whose post have an obvious nationalistic undertone. The later... I'd rather not waste my time with.

Italy is indeed producing doping positives at a similar rate to Spain, but unlike the RFEC the Italian federation seems willing to actually punish those that test positive. For an illustrative example, take a glance over the old lists of Fuentes' clients from Operacion Puerto. There are not many Italians on the list, but the two biggest Italian names, Scarponi and Basso, both received full suspensions, although it took CONI nearly twelve months to nail them down. Conversely, I do not think a single one of the many, many Spanish riders on the initial list received suspensions from the RFEC in the following years.

If you want to continue to deny what you were insinuating by asking hrotha if he was Spanish, then go ahead, but I think it is pretty clear to everyone in this thread what you meant. There are ample reasons to despise the culture of protectivism and denial that seems to be rife in Spanish cycling, and none of them are nationalistic or racist.

 

[sniper]

Italy is indeed producing doping positives at a similar rate to Spain, but unlike the RFEC the Italian federation seems willing to actually punish those that test positive. For an illustrative example, take a glance over the old lists of Fuentes' clients from Operacion Puerto. There are not many Italians on the list, but the two biggest Italian names, Scarponi and Basso, both received full suspensions, although it took CONI nearly twelve months to nail them down. Conversely, I do not think a single one of the many, many Spanish riders on the initial list received suspensions from the RFEC in the following years.

If you want to continue to deny what you were insinuating by asking hrotha if he was Spanish, then go ahead, but I think it is pretty clear to everyone in this thread what you meant. There are ample reasons to despise the culture of protectivism and denial that seems to be rife in Spanish cycling, and none of them are nationalistic or racist.

+1
indeed let's get rid of the phantom idea that criticizing Spanish (anti-)doping policies has anything to do with anti-Spanish sentiments. It doesn't.

 

[python]

the piece in bold is a great brainstorm. you might be warm there.

i know, as soon as my open-minded process does not agree with your preconcieved conclusions, you are resorting to ad hominems.

be forewarned, i can give it back at ease as you might know by now.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Historic Moment

As the country forward, the Disciplinary Committee of the Spanish Cycling Federation will issue "an acquittal" in the case of Alberto Contador and rider of Saxo Bank, SunGard may return to competition.

http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=35599

The walls of Babylon are coming down for a 2nd time, let me tell you.

Cool.............any news on if the cow was acquitted too?

I'm happy for the lad, but it's a Piti that this will not be the end though and we will have months or legal ramblings to go (WADA will have to appeal this).

That depends on (firstly) if he has been acquitted (no official word yet) and more importantly the reasons for any decision.

There would have to be a clear reason if there is an acquittal - and as there has been nothing reported thus-far by Contador I fully expect it to be appealed by WADA.

Actually, this would be great news - if this case goes to CAS it will expose the way the UCI handled the 'Results Management' and the ridiculous situation of having the athletes national federation judge its own athletes.

This could end up being a landmark case - with broad implications on how anti-doping is handled.

 

[sniper]

i know, as soon as my open-minded process does not agree with your preconcieved conclusions, you are resorting to ad hominems.

be forewarned, i can give it back at ease as you might know by now.

beg your pardon? I said your warm and that I liked the brainstorm. In other words: I agree.

EDIt: give what back?

 

[Jamsque]

I find your optimism very refreshing, Doctor M. Here's hoping the CAS gets the job done right.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Yeessssssss! I see a suspicious judgement in CN headlines: "could escape ban", why not to say "Disciplinary Committe finds Contador innocent"

In fact, Cyclingnews is revealing as playing a huge rol in this case as well as in others. Editorial line is called?

In view of the fact that clen was found in his system, and the plasticizer test, I think "escape ban" is the best language to use.
In fact I have heard that most of the top guys are planning on changing from "I have never tested positive" to "I have always escaped a ban".

 

[python]

Do you mean 32-page document? The only one I've seen didn't include the defense documents the ruling was based on, so we had to take their word for it when they said the transfusion theory was "highly improbable as to be safely dismissed from a scientific point of view."

yes, i was referring to 32 pages. no appendices were leaked but i doubt the forum 'hematologists' would need one..

 

[Hugh Januss]

beg your pardon? I said your warm and that I liked the brainstorm. In other words: I agree.

EDIt: give what back?

Well I guess you didn't agree strongly enough to suit snakeman.

 

[Lanark]

Cool.............any news on if the cow was acquitted too?



Actually, this would be great news - if this case goes to CAS it will expose the way the UCI handled the 'Results Management' and the ridiculous situation of having the athletes national federation judge its own athletes.

This could end up being a landmark case - with broad implications on how anti-doping is handled.

Why would you expect that? CAS has never complained about that in the dozens of cycling cases they had before, why would they start now?

And yet, there seems to be a disconnect between what you say and realitity, as Italy is producing just about as many doping positives as Spain, if not more.

It could just as well show that despite the lax attitude of the Spannish, they still have as much positives as in Italy. Imagine what would happen if they actually made an attempt to clean up their mess?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

This is all great news. Toypistol can get back to his racing … bang…bang. It will be much more fun to have dirty boy back in the peloton. He learned well from his former boss.

 

[scribe]

this is a bad joke i think.
what if you'll fail to pass a police alcohol test?
no one will accept excuse you've cleaned your teeth with too much of mouth water in the morning?
blahhh... makes me mad!!!
damned federeation. this could never happen anywhere else, just in spain.

Oh, it could happen anywhere else to be sure. That's not the point really. It just needs to stop happening.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yeah, but....

my opinion is nuanced and was explained before in many threads. here's the summary...

-the whole 1-year suspension is clearly contradictory to the applicable wada rule. 1-year suspension implies no significant negligence or fault but this is a case of no fault or fault (long story, but a steak purchased in europe unlike a supplement or a mexican or chinese steak can not be attributed to limited liability on simple odds of eu meat testing results)

- the weakness of blood transfusion theory, provided the plasticizer test has never been 'officalized', looks plausible (plausable does not mean there was no transfusion) based on 5 expert opinions about his passport
- other routes, like a supplement or an intentional microdosing with clen, are easy to show not being consistent with the evidence, therapeutic doses, and the timing of the tests...
-

What you describe is the traditional, complex artifice designed to get dopers racing again. It has all the necessary elements of wordy 'expert' analysis, wonky policy mastication, and ornate officialdom to obscure the simple fact he's free to race because his federation and the UCI want it to be.

Li Fuyu swiftly vanished from the UCI for a similar infraction. I've lost count of the months of posturing over the way to get Pharmador off in such a way as to be publicly plausible.

There is no more wondering why this sport has the most public support for doping. The Pharmador case is the perfect example. Except, when the next few riders die from PED complications and it's temporarily inappropriate to embrace PED's in the peloton.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Please note that the final announcement has not yet been made.

Susan

Susan, this is the Clinic. We don't wait for official word. Official word waits for us.

 

[nowhereman]

I am disgusted that there are people on this board who think this represents justice.

That's right Bucko, and I'm one of them! I hope the projection turns out to be correct, and he's back on the road tomorrow! BRAVO!

 

[python]

In view of the fact that clen was found in his system, and the plasticizer test, I think "escape ban" is the best language to use.
In fact I have heard that most of the top guys are planning on changing from "I have never tested positive" to "I have always escaped a ban".

you are talking nonsense here, hugee.

 

[Wrecktangle]

So now we are again in a no win situation. Clear Conti? You wusses caved to political pressure from Spain. Ban 'em? You a-holes hate the Spanish.

Why don't we grow a pair and read the strict rules in this case?

He must be banned for at least a year for the good of the sport. That way we show NO one is above the law.

 

[Hugh Januss]

you are talking nonsense here, hugee.

No, I am not. Whatever the final verdict is, knowing what I know, and extrapolating the rest, if Contador is acquitted then he has truely "escaped a ban". Just as HWSNBN "escaped a ban" for 6 postive EPO tests (and who knows what all else). Just as FS escaped a ban for Puerto. In fact every time a top GT contender is tested non positive I figure they have "escaped a ban".

 

[Francois the Postman]

[To all]

OK people, we have been called to this thread about 4 or 5 times now.

From this point on, the discussion better be about Contador. Not about each other, or what motivates someone to have an opinion one way or the other. Or what someone "is" when they have an opinion one way or the other.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why would you expect that? CAS has never complained about that in the dozens of cycling cases they had before, why would they start now?

It could just as well show that despite the lax attitude of the Spannish, they still have as much positives as in Italy. Imagine what would happen if they actually made an attempt to clean up their mess?

Not quite - CAS will only rule on the case (if there is an appeal).

It is WADA who sets the rules and criteria - this is a high profile case that has stunk from the outset and WADA have been closely monitoring it.
Both the UCI (by keeping the case quiet even after the A&B had returned positive) and the RFEC drawing this case out and checking the temperature of public opinion by putting out various conclusions.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Italy is indeed producing doping positives at a similar rate to Spain, but unlike the RFEC the Italian federation seems willing to actually punish those that test positive.

Let's underline "seems willing".

Unless you can prove with actual figures that the number of positives in Italy has gone down… you're kinda beating around the bush here.

For an illustrative example, take a glance over the old lists of Fuentes' clients from Operacion Puerto. There are not many Italians on the list, but the two biggest Italian names, Scarponi and Basso, both received full suspensions, although it took CONI nearly twelve months to nail them down.

CONI "nailed them down"???? Since when???? Last time I checked Ulrich, Basso and Scarponi admitted to doping. Then and only then were they given a suspension for obvious reasons. In fact, in at least, Basso's case, he was initially cleared to compete.

Conversely, I do not think a single one of the many, many Spanish riders on the initial list received suspensions from the RFEC in the following years.

That's because no Spanish cysclist admitted to anything. Now, I'm not saying they didn't dope, they may have or not, if the police are unable to get them to "sing"… what makes you think the RFEC is?

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