Contador Blood Doped

[Anonymous]

And these substances from plastic transfusion bags are not found in any other containers? Like plastic water bottles, for example? Or plastic tubes used in drinking apparatus? I would want to see some evidence that this test is specific.

exactly.. this whole thing is a farce.. Bust him for doping or just give it up UCI. Cos this is making everyone look stupid.

 

[auscyclefan94]

well yeh, clearly he did one, or all of those things on the morning of the rest day

10x is quite substancial and to have clenbuterol in the system. mega coincidence that both those things are to do with blood doping! You seem to be drawing a long bow by sticking up for him.

 

[Anonymous]

10x is quite substancial and to have clenbuterol in the system. mega coincidence that both those things are to do with blood doping! You seem to be drawing a long bow by sticking up for him.

But the amount of clenbuterol was a million miles away from anything that could be classed as performance enhancing.
his test the day before was clean, his tests after the 22nd were clean. If you were taking clenbuterol to enhance you would take 100x as much, and for a period of days, and weeks, not a miniscule atom sized particle once.

I dont know how it got there, it may well have got there by transfusion etc, butthere is no way on this earth that Contador took five picograms of Clenbuterol for performanc enhancment, its just illogical.

I cant stand AC, and beleive he is doping, but this thing is complete and utter hogwash. I would actually hate to see someone get banned on a ridiculous positive like this. We should be banning people for proper positives with proof of EPO, transfusion, masking agents etc. The fact that we cant catch the dopers just shows how useless the UCI are, and this just compounds that.

Maybe more evidence will turn up and I will change my point of view, but as the evidence stands, and the amounts of clenbuterol quoted there is no way it was a PED

I am actually able to seperate my dislike of contador, or some desire for doping headlines from logic unlike some people around here. I think half the people havent actually studied the facts to be honest.

 

[auscyclefan94]

But the amount of clenbuterol was a million miles away from anything that could be classed as performance enhancing.
his test the day before was clean, his tests after the 22nd were clean. If you were taking clenbuterol to enhance you would take 100x as much, and for a period of days, and weeks, not a miniscule atom sized particle once.

I dont know how it got there, it may well have got there by transfusion etc, butthere is no way on this earth that Contador took five picograms of Clenbuterol for performanc enhancment, its just illogical.

If it was food then it would also be more than 5 picograms. it does not matter it his tests before and after were clean because that could definetly indicate blood doping

 

[Anonymous]

If it was food then it would also be more than 5 picograms. it does not matter it his tests before and after were clean because that could definetly indicate blood doping

well no, it depends how much was in the food. Like i say, maybe it was transfusion but so far there is little evidence of that.

On the facts as we have them, with no speculation on what could or may transpire, he did not take it on its own as a ped. Unless you have more information that I dont have?

 

[auscyclefan94]

well no, it depends how much was in the food. Like i say, maybe it was transfusion but so far there is little evidence of that.

On the facts as we have them, with no speculation on what could or may transpire, he did not take it on its own as a ped. Unless you have more information that I dont have?

it would be more than that if it was meat. i have being doing some reading on it and will try to provide you with a link on injecting clenbuterol into cows. I think there is some evidence of blood doping. Don't tell me I am going to have to break the news again to Australian media that he has gotten off?

 

[Anonymous]

it would be more than that if it was meat. i have being doing some reading on it and will try to provide you with a link on injecting clenbuterol into cows. I think there is some evidence of blood doping. Don't tell me I am going to have to break the news again to Australian media that he has gotten off?

Oh ive read pages on bloody clenbuterol today, im sick of it the UCI have let three off today so it wouldnt surprise me.

 

[Intelligent Being]

Contador should be banned anyways just to set an example for future would-be dopers.

 

[ingsve]

exactly.. this whole thing is a farce.. Bust him for doping or just give it up UCI. Cos this is making everyone look stupid.

I don't think anyone is saying that the phthalate test is enough to convict him of anything but you must admit that if the test is accurate then it is at least suspicious.

Speculating about water bottles and other day to day things is meaningless because nothing like that will plausibly cause a 10x swing from one day to the next. Blood transfusions on the other hand can as far as the research is telling us. More research is probably needed to rule out other sources but as of right now transfusions is the most plausible mechanism for high values.

I think that Contador will probably go free this time around but I'm very interested in how this test can be developed and implemented as a test of blood transfusions for the future.

 

[stephens]

Well, for one thing if there is a certain amount of plasticizers in water bottles or other things that are used by everyone then that would only serve as a background level that would be roughly equal between all pro riders. If someone was getting blood transfusions that would be an additional source which would put someone well above the average since it would be found directly in the bloodstream rather than being ingested.

Except, of course, if everyone is blood doping.

 

[CPAvelo]

What are the chances the cow drank from soft plastic bottles?

Better if the cow swam from Europe to China since many plastic bottles end up littering our oceans.

 

[ingsve]

Except, of course, if everyone is blood doping.

No, what you ment to say was "Except, of course, if everyone got blood transfusions every single day".

The phthalates will leave the body fairly quickly so the elevated amounts would be found within 24-48 hours of a blood transfusion but not otherwise.

 

[stephens]

That's not just any random 48 hour period we're talking about. We're talking about after the recharging, err..."rest" days.

 

[Blakeslee]

I dont know how it got there, it may well have got there by transfusion etc, butthere is no way on this earth that Contador took five picograms of Clenbuterol for performanc enhancment, its just illogical.

I believe the trace amounts of the drug found supports the blood doping theory. The idea is that Contador was taking the drug sometime earlier in the season, after which the blood was drawn for later transfusion. The blood still contained trace amounts of the drug which were so small that they were not picked up by whatever internal testing was done by Contador or his team before the transfusion was given on the rest day.

 

[Offtheback]

I believe the trace amounts of the drug found supports the blood doping theory. The idea is that Contador was taking the drug sometime earlier in the season, after which the blood was drawn for later transfusion. The blood still contained trace amounts of the drug which were so small that they were not picked up by whatever internal testing was done by Contador or his team before the transfusion was given on the rest day.

There are a quite a few emails following this article,

http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderr...ador-case-means-hard-choices-for-anti-doping/

that agree with what you say. My opinion is that Contador has been a user of PEDs and he got caught; be it for a small amount, as his people point out. However if it's positive, it's positive. Worst case, two years.

 

[Cobber]

And these substances from plastic transfusion bags are not found in any other containers? Like plastic water bottles, for example? Or plastic tubes used in drinking apparatus? I would want to see some evidence that this test is specific.

But you don't usually inject water from plastic bottles directly into your blood. If this plastic substance is not naturally absorbed into the bloodstream from the digestive tract, then there is no way for it to get into the blood other than direct introduction.

 

[microdose]

the experts will know....

Surely if he blood doped (which I think he did) then his H-Crit levels will have risen. He seems to have been tested a number of days in a row which should give the experts enough info. If there is a combination of plasticizer and increased H-Crit then I'd think the case should be solid. This is the info I'd be chasing if I was the German media (who appear to be the only ones actually chasing the story hard).

 

[roundabout]

According to L'Equipe Contador's bio passport is not suspicious.

But we know now how meaningless this is.

 

[galaxy1]

i'm guessing the plasticizers are not against any rules, just "indicative".
the news of the test is very encouraging - good EPO tests, good transfusion tests, and diligent blood profiling would go a long way towards giving me some confidence in what i see in this sport.

will be interesting to see more information on this case as it comes out.

 

[Ferminal]

According to L'Equipe Contador's bio passport is not suspicious.

But we know now how meaningless this is.

You would hope so.

Most professionals seem to have managed the technique of dilution or whatever it is to keep their numbers in check after a top-up.

 

[Arnout]

And probably in the gels they use during a race?

Can anybody explain me whats the logic of the blood bag theory? That would mean he used the substance in the off - season. But that would also mean that he would have to be extremely cautious, as this stuff takes some time before it is gone and there is no natural threshold. That would mean he first had to dope (and use the salbutasomething) to get stronger or whatever, then transfuse blood without this substance afterwards. My logic says that when you dope, you do it either in the off-season (and with useful substances, but that's another matter) to avoid tests (which Contador will have to undergo in the off-season as well), or you transfuse blood in the off-season to use it during a race. But when you do both, both advantages are gone. Your advantage of no doping controls is gone, as you will be tested with this blood in a race. And your advantage of own blood transfusions which will not be detected is gone, as you doped during those transfusions.

It seems a hassle at the very least and moreover extremely risky to me (as, once again, Contador will be tested more than the average cyclist and you cannot build with this substance till a certain level).

I don't see the logic of this theory. Can anybody explain me why he would do this?

I didn't get a sufficient answer on this question.

Why is there an increased chance of blood transfusion because of this substance?

And the plastics "found" (I don't believe it, as it is a German journalist who is saying this. How credible are German cycling journalists?) is another story.

 

[Polyarmour]

"di(2-ethylhexyl): DEHP metabolites measured from the blood of pregnant women have been significantly associated with the decreased penis width, shorter anogenital distance, and the incomplete descent of testes of their newborn sons"

Soooo I wonder how Alberto measures up now?

 

[nevada]

I believe the trace amounts of the drug found supports the blood doping theory. The idea is that Contador was taking the drug sometime earlier in the season, after which the blood was drawn for later transfusion. The blood still contained trace amounts of the drug which were so small that they were not picked up by whatever internal testing was done by Contador or his team before the transfusion was given on the rest day.

Agree completely. Slapped writs for the Astana employed tester.

 

[ingsve]

I didn't get a sufficient answer on this question.

Why is there an increased chance of blood transfusion because of this substance?

And the plastics "found" (I don't believe it, as it is a German journalist who is saying this. How credible are German cycling journalists?) is another story.

You mean the link between clenbuterol and blood transfusions? That is a rather weak link. It's proposed as one theory for why the clenbuterol levels are so low. There are three main reasons why they could be low:

1. Food contamination. This is what Contador claims. That he ate meat that had clenbuterol in it which is what gave the small amounts in his test.

2. Microdosing. He actually took very little of it during the Tour. This is very unlikely since it would be pointless to take that small amount since it would have no effect at all.

3. Blood transfusion. He took a lot more of it during a time when he wasn't afraid of getting tested and then carelessly tapped himself of blood during a period where the clenbuterol was almost out of his system but not quite. This would also explain the low dose found but it's a more elaborate explanation if you only look at the clenbuterol.

There might be other reasons why such small amounts could be found but these three are the ones that are talked about now with everyone disregarding number 2 as extremely unlikely.

As for the plasticizers then yes I also see that as a different issue. We only have one source for that information so we need to know more about it to say anything about Contadors case. The existence of the possible test is still interesting though.

 

[Escarabajo]

Surely if he blood doped (which I think he did) then his H-Crit levels will have risen. He seems to have been tested a number of days in a row which should give the experts enough info. If there is a combination of plasticizer and increased H-Crit then I'd think the case should be solid. This is the info I'd be chasing if I was the German media (who appear to be the only ones actually chasing the story hard).

Hct does not have to rise if you use plasma expanders. that's how the got Sevilla and Mosquera in Spain. Is a masking agent for the transfusion. It just makes it harder for the Bio Passport to catch them.

They can only use 3 blood tests from the Tour on rest days and at the beginning. The other tests are urine samples and can not be used to calculate the off-score.