Contador: "I have never doped. Never."

[khardung la]

What does that prove? Their cheaters are better than our cheaters? Or, that our cheaters are idiots because they can't win even with cheating?

How about the size of the cycling community in either country?

My point is that it is no wonder that there are many doping cases in cycling in Spain, since there are plenty of cyclists. I am sure Canada has more dopers in ice hockey.

I do not know what is "the cycling community", but whatever it is for you has nothing to do with a bunch of dopers at the proffesional level.

There is a point that the Spanish language uses a reflexive case that in a literal sense puts the action on the object, rather than the subject. In Spanish, the plate broke itself. In English, the plate broke.

Sorry to say that you are not correct. In particular your example is not at all a reflexive, it is a special construction that is called in Spanish a "pronominal media". If you can speak Spanish you can get more information from the Instituto Cervantes in this article http://cvc.cervantes.es/ensenanza/biblioteca_ele/asele/pdf/09/09_0554.pdf

We say in Spanish "El (subject) rompió el plato" (he broke the plate), and therefore romper (break) is a transitive verb. The "pronominal media" is widely used when the subject is not important for the case that is being communicated. For example it is normal to say in Spanish "mi padre se mató en un accidente de trafico" (my father died in a car accident), and it does not translate like my father killed himself in a car accident (implying that he suicided or was not cautious while driving)

In your example the plate did not broke itself, it is just a construction when the person speaking does not mind about who or how the plate was broken.

You can also get info about this in the wikipedia, it is explained quite well http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbo_pronominal

Incidentally I do not know what does it have with cycling or doping how we speak in Spanish. But anyway, you was wrong about your point. If you need more info about the use of pronominal media in Spanish just let me know.

 

[khardung la]

Interesting and telling piece of data, this Spanish quantitative dominance in pro-cycling. After all, it is well known that only if you agree to dope yourself you have a chance of getting a contract in most pro-cycling teams.

And of the pro-cycling teams (18) there are 2 Spanish teams next year. Or do you imply that the directors of the 18 teams will force to dope just those ones with Spanish passport??? Come on.

The other 16 teams would not be doping-prone if doping would be a Spanish cancer, but then according to you "it is well known that only if you agree to dope yourself you have a chance of getting a contract in most pro-cycling teams"

You confuse me.

 

[Merckx index]

As an American, I feel a little insulted by the claim that the Spanish are world-class cheaters. They may cheat at sports, where a few million dollars in chump change are involved, but when Americans cheat, billions of dollars disappear. Our very own Bernie Madoff makes any Spanish athlete look like a choir boy. And the legal cheating--e.g., on Wall Street--occurs on an even grander scale.

 

[python]

i really don't care about the irrelevant issues like the 'spanish being the doping nation'...seriously, can we quit the inflammatory cultural references ? pleeaaase.

if someone persists im sure a similar tale can be found about his/er nation.

as to contador 'never doped, never'...hmmmm.

 

[khardung la]

i really don't care about the irrelevant issues like the 'spanish being the doping nation'...seriously, can we quit the inflammatory cultural references ? pleeaaase.

if someone persists im sure a similar tale can be found about his/er nation.

as to contador 'never doped, never'...hmmmm.

+100 agreed 100%

 

[sniper]

And of the pro-cycling teams (18) there are 2 Spanish teams next year. Or do you imply that the directors of the 18 teams will force to dope just those ones with Spanish passport??? Come on.

The other 16 teams would not be doping-prone if doping would be a Spanish cancer, but then according to you "it is well known that only if you agree to dope yourself you have a chance of getting a contract in most pro-cycling teams"

You confuse me.

Good point.
Anyway, I should make clear that I don't share any foolish thoughts such as the one expressed earlier, according to which there would be something cheaterish about Spanish people/culture. Obviously, AC's foolishness and cheating behavior does not reflect Spanish people & culture, but rather reflects pro-cycling people & culture.
On the other hand, the uncritical attitude towards him displayed by Spanish media is quite disturbing. Without saying that Germans are cleaner than Spaniards, it is a sure thing that the German media are a few times more critical towards their own athletes.

 

[El Pistolero]

Good point.
Anyway, I should make clear that I don't share any foolish thoughts such as the one expressed earlier, according to which there would be something cheaterish about Spanish people/culture. Obviously, AC's foolishness and cheating behavior does not reflect Spanish people & culture, but rather reflects pro-cycling people & culture.
On the other hand, the uncritical attitude towards him displayed by Spanish media is quite disturbing. Without saying that Germans are cleaner than Spaniards, it is a sure thing that the German media are a few times more critical towards their own athletes.

German media hates cycling with a passion though. And with the doping history of "der DDR", it's only logical the German media is more critical.

With Spain you have Franco till '75. Then a slow transformation to a real democracy. No wonder Spain's media ain't the most critical one around.

 

[Dallas_]

After all, it is well known that only if you agree to dope yourself you have a chance of getting a contract in most pro-cycling teams.

Sniper, will have to disagree with you on that point. My opinion is there would be many in these forums who would agree with me as well. I happen to know 3 riders - no way.

cheers dallas

 

[sniper]

Sniper, will have to disagree with you on that point. My opinion is there would be many in these forums who would agree with me as well. I happen to know 3 riders - no way.

cheers dallas

Admittedly, my opinion is/was based largely on what is said in Blut und Spielen. I'd love to believe that the depressing image sketched in that documentary (especially what Jaksche and Manzano recount there) is now outdated.
Well, I trust your judgement, I guess.

 

[D-Queued]

...
Incidentally I do not know what does it have with cycling or doping how we speak in Spanish. But anyway, you was wrong about your point. If you need more info about the use of pronominal media in Spanish just let me know.

You was not knowing what I were talking about.

Language reflects culture. N'est-ce pas?

Romperse. It broke itself.

Dave.

 

[Ferminal]

Well actually Hugh, when you mention them : Aussie rules are an absolute joke. Last time I checked, it was THREE strikes and you are out - and some of those fans joke about doping in cycling. Imagine suddenly putting the bio passport in place there and following up with target testing. The media would have a field day!

cheers dallas

That rule is designed with regards to out-of-competition recreational drug use.

Now I'm not sure where they draw the line between competition and out of competition (most of this behavior would occur the night after a game or in the 6-8 week post-season period), but it's a good policy in a culture where recreational drugs are the norm rather than the exception.

Wendell Sailor when playing Rugby Union received a 2-year ban for a cocaine positive.

I'm not trying to defend our anti-doping credentials, both officially and culturally. Officially I think we could be tougher, and culturally there seems a stigma attached to anti-doping, as though anti-doping is that pesky thing which catches out our great heroes. High profile cases like Shane Warne and the French conspiracies against Ian Thorpe and Armstrong himself probably fuel this.

 

[hrotha]

You was not knowing what I were talking about.

Language reflects culture. N'est-ce pas?

Romperse. It broke itself.

Dave.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but... Sapir-Whorf is mostly pollocks.
(silly filter)

 

[robertocarlos]

You was not knowing what I were talking about.

Language reflects culture. N'est-ce pas?

Romperse. It broke itself.

Dave.

not really it means more like it broke.

in english we say my car broke
in spanish mi carro se avereo o descompuso
we do not say my car broke itself or
in spanish mi carro se avereo o descompuso asi mismo

we use this expessions to say **** happens, but that does not mean that we are actually placing the blame on inanimate objects. when somebody asks me in spanish "que hace eso ahi?" i respond "eso no hace nada es un objeto inanimado." the same could be said of english. i really wonder how many bilingual posters are here. we have to take into account that english spanish and almost all european languages belong in the same family of language and therefore most elements are shared. now if we were talking about east asian, african or native america alnguages this will be a different story.

 

[Dallas_]

Admittedly, my opinion is/was based largely on what is said in Blut und Spielen. I'd love to believe that the depressing image sketched in that documentary (especially what Jaksche and Manzano recount there) is now outdated.
Well, I trust your judgement, I guess.

Sniper, I know it is off topic, but one or more links on Bluttund Spielen documentary would be appreciated. Links maybe in forum somewhere !! ie me interested

cheers dallas

 

[D-Queued]

not really it means more like it broke.

in english we say my car broke
in spanish mi carro se avereo o descompuso
we do not say my car broke itself or
in spanish mi carro se avereo o descompuso asi mismo

we use this expessions to say **** happens, but that does not mean that we are actually placing the blame on inanimate objects. when somebody asks me in spanish "que hace eso ahi?" i respond "eso no hace nada es un objeto inanimado." the same could be said of english. i really wonder how many bilingual posters are here. we have to take into account that english spanish and almost all european languages belong in the same family of language and therefore most elements are shared. now if we were talking about east asian, african or native america alnguages this will be a different story.

First, I thought the comment about Spanish culture was not just off topic, but way off target.

Second, apologies to the rest of the folks reading this thread as I continue this OT dialog.

Your experience and my experience may be quite different. All languages have their own idiomatic expressions. Certainly, many of the Spanish speaking populations in the Americas have their own meanings and dialects. Those that I am most familiar with use Romperse in a way that indicates the thing broke itself - commonly as a way of avoiding any sort of suggestion of blame assignment.

Given how lazy some of the Spanish is, I thought that 'Coca' was a common way of saying Coke, as in the kind that comes in the bottle.

Apparently that is only common in some Central American countries, and not others.

Fortunately I wasn't arrested for trying to score some coke.

Dave.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Sniper, I know it is off topic, but one or more links on Bluttund Spielen documentary would be appreciated. Links maybe in forum somewhere !! ie me interested

cheers dallas

Careful dude, a few links like that and you will no longer be able to believe that any of the top hundred would pass the plasticizer test.

 

[khardung la]

You was not knowing what I were talking about.

Language reflects culture. N'est-ce pas?

Romperse. It broke itself.

Dave.

To insist in your mistake does not make your mistake different. Romperse is not reflexive and it does not translate like broke itself. "El plato se rompio" translates like "The plate broke". There is no reflexive there, is a form called "pronominal media" where the subject is eliptic (absent).

I already sent you a link from the Instituto Cervantes about that. I do not know your Spanish skills, probably they are inexistent.

I am Spanish, I have also lived in South America and Central America (now I live in Sweden). I am acquainted with my language from the gramatical point of view, I mean I have interest in reading about these issues.

Incidentally we have a Spanish Academy of the Language founded in 1713 where ALL the Spanish speaking countries have the same weight in deciding and getting consensus about the language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Academia_Espa%C3%B1ola. So your argument (that probably will follow) that in some country they speak differently would be ridiculous and would make you look even worst.

It is very easy, just say "Oh, I thought it was a reflexive,my mistake, thanks for that"

 

[khardung la]

Given how lazy some of the Spanish is, I thought that 'Coca' was a common way of saying Coke, as in the kind that comes in the bottle.

Apparently that is only common in some Central American countries, and not others.

Fortunately I wasn't arrested for trying to score some coke.

Dave.

For God's sake guy, stop being racistic and moronic. You are embarrasing yourself (you see , that IS a reflexive). Can you please give up this OT without saying a last word that is more insulting than your previous message?

 

[sniper]

Sniper, I know it is off topic, but one or more links on Bluttund Spielen documentary would be appreciated. Links maybe in forum somewhere !! ie me interested

cheers dallas

Dallas (and others), here is the link to part one of the German version (from 2007):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KfG5seVmT8
If you finish it, the other parts automatically offer themselves. (A total of 2 parts, each divided in 5 smaller parts).
By the way, I mistyped. It's Blut und Spiele (without n).
There is supposedly also a version circulating on youtube with an Italian voice-over. I'm not sure about English.
The docu has been discussed in some threads, I believe, but don't really remember in which ones, or to what extent.

 

[Francois the Postman]

mod comment: OK guys, give this it-is-a-Spanish-thing a rest now.

Also a gentle reminder and request to warn mods if you stumble across something you perceive as racist or xenophobic, rather than debate it over 10+ pages. It is simply not tolerated here.

If you want to discuss the finer points of the Spanish language et al, take it out of this part of the forum and into the general area.

The next one off-topic here will find me much grumpier.

 

[La Pandera]

The only way to look at it is they need dope to keep up with the doped euros. Not hard to understand considering all the top euros have proven to be utterly filthy (piti, contadoper, di cheater).

....and you conveniently fail to mention your own countryman, David Millar.

 

[Escarabajo]

Dallas (and others), here is the link to part one of the German version (from 2007):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KfG5seVmT8
If you finish it, the other parts automatically offer themselves. (A total of 2 parts, each divided in 5 smaller parts).
By the way, I mistyped. It's Blut und Spiele (without n).
There is supposedly also a version circulating on youtube with an Italian voice-over. I'm not sure about English.
The docu has been discussed in some threads, I believe, but don't really remember in which ones, or to what extent.

Darn, it seems to be very good. Now we need the english version.I don't speak German.

Thanks.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Doping as a competitive edge

[quote=flicker "As athletes we must use a competitive "edge" from time to time. Call me hypocrite call me Ishmael whatever, this is the "truth" in sports.
I am not saying that the "edge" is fair but it is fact in sport, IMO"

This is the most inane rationalization for doping I have ever heard. The edge flicker is talking about is using performance enhancing drugs. Sure it is a fact in sport, but the whole point is that it should not be. There must be a level playing field so the best athlete wins the day, not the best druggie.

Flicker you are a hypocrite and an Ishmael, neither of which is something of which to be proud. It is jerks like you that perpetuate the drug problems in sport. ** editged by mod ***

 

[ridecanada]

Spain: Cheating is good, just don't get caught, but don't worry if you do....

Canada: We stripped Ben Johnson of his medal, he was banned for life. Jeanson, also banned for life.

Finding: Canada hard on dopers

USA: Dopers get thrown in jail. Floyd lied about his doping for years, even after he was caught, now we're suppose to believe him?? he's a proven liar and a doper. Using him as an "expert" is going to be the flaw in going after Armstrong. I think they will find nothing to convict him, and Floyd is just working the feds for freebie travel and noteriety. Wait for his book, just imagine how much he'll make from coming clean on being a dirty liar.

Finding: USA hard on dopers except floyd liaris

Spain: Don't worry about getting caught, we the Spanish cycling body will make sure the evidence doesn't add up, then we will stall, then we will make sure you can race even though you're dirty.

Finding: Spain is a place where cheaters are welcome and we will help you.

 

[D-Queued]

Canada: We stripped Ben Johnson of his medal, he was banned for life. Jeanson, also banned for life.

Finding: Canada hard on dopers

...[/B]

Not arguing with your points, but the GJ case was ultimately handled by USADA, for example. Even though GJ had problems with the Quebec association, Canda could have been tougher.

"on September 20, 2007, that she had taken EPO more or less continuously since 16"

Yet, there are absolutely no asterisks beside any of her 'Palmares'.

I recall watching her cross at least one finish line with more than one knowledgeable person in the crowd observing, "Doper".

In contrast, Marion Jones also admitted in 2007. Her Palmares have been scratched all the way back to 2000.

Dave.